it IS the router & the new 21CN

On looking when this problem started I notice a very likely and common cause. You was moved onto the new 21CN network on the 22nd of Sept, exactly when the problem started. We also know that there are known Netgear routers - DG834 v1 v2 v3 and v4's which all display the exact symptoms as you are getting when on the 21CN network.

This upgrade onto the 21CN network unfortunately is not an optional move. The whole country is gradually getting moved onto this new Kit/Network which will then result in the decommissioning of the old infrastructure.

Like I said we have seen problem on almost all DG834v1,2,3,4 routers moving onto ADSL2+. The fix has been to try an alternative router. The DG834v5 has been proven to be one that does work fine. However the earlier versions do not.


The paste above is from Zen's e-mail. So there you have it, buy a new router, well it won't be a Netgear that's for sure!

Either very few people still use those models or the issue is something else really.

My one of first into UK DG834 died before 21CN arrived, and not sure where the DG834G is, probably got donated somewhere.

Some old articles:
http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/btsupplier/t/385738... (the G was the same hardware, just had the wireless card added)
http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showthread.php?t=1331647
http://www.idnetters.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=28...

So plenty getting it working. I think the reality is that as 21CN (ADSL2+) is running the line closer to what is possible, that some underlying issues are more obvious and this causes issues with your line, RATHER than a generic the DG834 does not work with 21CN.

Not having seen any line stats it is hard to say much more.

Is it not still possible to force ADSL modulation on an ADSL2+ line by setting the router to ADSL?

At least you don't have to go through the pain of migrating to BT.

Putting my connection where my mouth is II've just set my router (Netgear DGN2200) on an ADSL 2+ line to ADSL.

Now syncing at nearly 5 Meg and throughput of 4, highest I've ever had on this line.

Usually is possible if the router supports mode setting

have seen one or LLU MSANs not allow it, but BT WBC MSAN are happy

Give ADSL2 a try too, this does not use the extra frequencies but better maths to squeeze a bit more.

The reason why sometimes ADSL mode does perform better, is that ADSL standard is very old and all the bugs ironed out in the code. ADSL2+ seems to have multiple versions with firmware writers tweaking it as they go, routers like the AVM 7390 expose some of these tweaks into the user interface.

Agreed, set the modulation on the modem and this will only use that type on the 21CN connections.

The MSANS do not force ADSL2+ only.

In reply to a post by Azzaka:

Agreed, set the modulation on the modem and this will only use that type on the 21CN connections.

The MSANS do not force ADSL2+ only.

So why does the email from Zen say this?

Like I said we have seen problem on almost all DG834v1,2,3,4 routers moving onto ADSL2+. The fix has been to try an alternative router. The DG834v5 has been proven to be one that does work fine. However the earlier versions do not.

A lot of the issues we have seen from the other modems especailly the DG834v1, v2, and v3's come with age. Although they will work with ADSL2+ in most respects the age of the modem and lack of Firmware updates stops them from working on a lot of lines properly.

We have seen the v5 which uses the connexant chipset work well, however we have also seen them work not so well. As I posted earlier in the thread, if Zen sold the customer the Netgear, this would make the modem a Minimum of 6yrs old. Take into consideration the Original Poster has said they are not technical the likely hood of any updates to the Firmware being done are quite slim in my opinion.

If you want a broader overview and not an opinion based on the customers ISP's comments, then I would suggest a query via a search engine or even looking at other ISP websites.

Some modems have not been working at all well, whilst others have been. We have no answers as to why, and we can only give our opinion based on the feedback from our customers.

So will simply forcing the modulation to ADSL fix the OP problem?

In short, I don't know. The customer has been placed onto a Brand new MSAN. The modem for what ever reason does not appear to be playing well anymore. As I have not seen the line stats, nor am I aware of the customers account details, I can only speculate as to whether the line will settle or whether it will get worse.

I have to laugh or I will be asking the vendor of the Netgear DG834 why it won't work with ADSL2+ when the box says it will and the accompanying CD-ROM says it is a DG834B or DG834v4 --- actually I have asked the supplier (Zen)

If BT are foisting off on us their new infrastructure then they owe us a duty of care to make sure our existing kit works --- just as in the North Sea gas changeover or the tv digital signal axing the analogue. We are their captive customers (Zen too) so doubtless the Regulator will step in?

In reply to a post by Azzaka:

In short, I don't know. The customer has been placed onto a Brand new MSAN. The modem for what ever reason does not appear to be playing well anymore. As I have not seen the line stats, nor am I aware of the customers account details, I can only speculate as to whether the line will settle or whether it will get worse.

Can you remotely configure the customer's router or the MSAN to force ADSL?

Unfortunately, who do you blame?

The ISP for selling a modem they believe will work? the Modem Manufacturer? the modems chipset manufacturer? The MSAN Provider? BTW?

At the most all we can do, and this includes the customer and the ISP, is to work together and gather information about types of issues and try to work out a way to resolve them.

Will bet good money that Netgear DG834 versions were put throught their paces at the labs.

What you cannot do is test every line and its noise environment, hence why a modem is unstable for one person but good for another even when exchange hardware and attenuation can be similar

Unfortunately this is not the only modem / router model to give problems, my exchange change to 21CN rendered my linksys WAG54gs modem defunct. (supposedly ADSL2+ compliant), unfortunately the zen agents were having a bad week and it took a couple of days to cotton on to the "known problem" with this model on 21CN.
The replacement speedtouch 585, was problematic in so far as it worked ok initially then nosedived on the synch speeds after a few days resetting the line speed pitifully low. again it took a few days of eliminating everything else until I had to purchase modem model number 3.
The current model I am using, a netgear DGN1000, has been up and running at 12Meg d/l and 0.9M u/l for over 500 hours now without a blip, praise the lord!

It would seem modem compatibility problems are not isolated single issues if my experience is anything to go by.

In reply to a post by Azzaka:

Some modems have not been working at all well, whilst others have been. We have no answers as to why, and we can only give our opinion based on the feedback from our customers.

I can well believe this.

I'm not on Zen but on a similar BTW based ISP. A while back I had two routers 'fail'. One was a Zyxel (AR7 based), the other a 2-Wire. The Zyxel worked well for a time and would then refuse to sync; I swapped to the 2-wire and after a while that exhibited the same symptoms. Got an OR visit and needless to say he connected his modem found no fault and, left me with a £180 bill.

Now the interesting thing is that both of these routers when connected to my sister's line - same BTW based ISP, worked perfectly with no problems, but would still refuse to connect on my line, no matter what I did. Back then neither of us were on 21CN. Note that on my line the router is plugged directly into the main socket so internal wiring was not the cause.

Flash forward and my exchange was upgraded to 21CN ADSL2+ about 5 months ago. Both routers now work solidly on my line with decent sync speeds for the attn and, no problems so far. The only change has been the exchange upgrade and whatever work BT did in connection with that. Interestingly the Zyxel using the much maligned AR7, now gives a significantly higher sync than the 2-Wire. This could be because the exchange kit now uses Infineon (it was previously Alcatel) who I believe now manufacture the AR7.

There's no doubt in my mind that ADSL still remains something of a dark art.

Edited by Tacitus (Sat 29-Sep-12 09:23:39)

Push the ADSL spec to its limits and the performance of hardware becomes crucial.

21CN arriving at Fawley exchange last week means for me a new router. My ISP (Zen) recoomends the £37 Thompson

http://www.zen.co.uk/home-office/broadband/home-offi...

which I am ordering on Monday so hopefully this is the end of all problems. I have lashed out at everybody, made myself highly objectionable, and now believe my response was to a situation that I never created. Should I be penitent? Anybody want an foc entirely functional Netgear DG834 version 4 ?

That's a good price, same as on Amazon.

It does without doubt push the circuitry harder but when they are sold as confoming with specific technologies they should still work.

All the ones I tried were ADSL2+ compliant and should work, albeit there may be performance differences. They should not just cease working full stop.

I also had a duplicate linksys router set up for my family to swap to if there was a problem I was working overseas so I ended up with two expensive door stops and added another one when the thompson unit played up.

Perhaps there should be a hardware list that could be assembled through the forum feedbacks to spread the word on the ones that do not meet the minimum requirement of actually working?

You were using a netgear router - what did you expect? ;p

Well I have avoided them for years after other hiccups but Netgear (Spit) is the only one of the 4 I have had that worked reliably here

It really is a ridiculous stae of affaris.

It's like saying x brand of ehternet code will only talk to x brand of switch or router even though they boh support FastEthernet or light fittings having to be connected to the same make of light switch

I don't blame the ISPs or BT.


I blame the chipset manufacturers and ultimately the ITU as modem and general PHY layer attributes such as power, gain and negotiation should be completely standard.


Differentiate the product at the upper levels such as TCP/IP stack support (IPv4/v6), firewall function and additional features.

In reply to a post by techguy:

It's like saying x brand of ehternet code will only talk to x brand of switch or router even though they both support FastEthernet

Well, yes. I recently resolved a local network throughput problem (not minor, I mean a 20x improvement) by replacing a switch with a different one (same speed, same manufacturer, different chipset) - so sure, the ridiculous does happen elsewhere.

Paul

Edited by deleted (Sun 30-Sep-12 11:24:28)

I'll bet anything you like that was a duplex mismatch.

WIth lots of networking kit there are problems like this, and as ADSL is so variable, then the standard recourse as a consumer is returning goods under Sale of Goods Act.

In reply to a post by JonRennie:

I'll bet anything you like that was a duplex mismatch.

No, it wasn't, actually - it was a specific incompatibility between two chipsets which caused the link to drop and be restarted every few seconds. I was able to find it documented, eventually, but don't have any more details to hand.

Forcing the link speed down from 1Gbps to 100Mbps significantly improved the throughput, because the problem didn't occur at that speed. Changing either the switch or the network card solved it; but the switch was rather old and went in the bin, and the Intel network adapter on my server motherboard was allowed to remain.

Paul

Edited by deleted (Sun 30-Sep-12 23:10:41)

Gets the benefit of auto-configuration from us too, so easier to install.