Worth switching from bt fttc?

Hi all,

Just having a look around at my options of changing from BT fttc.
How's the speeds on Zen's 80 MB fttc? also some trace routes to bbc.co.uk would be great.

Many Thanks!

Tracing fron a Zen FFTC connection with Zen backhaul;

sarah@DVR-W ~
$ tracert www.bbc.co.uk

Tracing route to www.bbc.net.uk [212.58.244.68]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

  1    <1 ms    <1 ms    <1 ms  GW [172.16.53.254] 
  2     5 ms     5 ms     5 ms  losubs.subs.dsl6.th-lon.zen.net.uk [62.3.84.27] 
  3     5 ms     5 ms     5 ms  no-dns-yet-62-3-86-133.zen.co.uk [62.3.86.133] 
  4     5 ms     5 ms     5 ms  ge-2-0-0-0.cr1.th-lon.zen.net.uk [62.3.80.41] 
  5     5 ms     5 ms     5 ms  82.71.254.134 
  6     *        *        *     Request timed out.
  7     *        *        *     Request timed out.
  8     5 ms     6 ms     5 ms  ae0.er01.telhc.bbc.co.uk [132.185.254.109] 
  9     6 ms     6 ms     6 ms  132.185.255.149 
 10     6 ms     5 ms     5 ms  bbc-vip113.telhc.bbc.co.uk [212.58.244.68] 

Trace complete.

Ping times are typically around 5ms. This line syncs at 80/20 and has an attainable rate of well over 100 down. I regard this as pretty much a best case scenario.

I can't do a download speed test as I'm not on site at the moment.

Edited by caffn8me (Tue 15-Jul-14 02:01:17)

way better than my ping times

Tracing route to www.bbc.net.uk [212.58.244.70]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 6 ms 1 ms 1 ms [192.168.0.1]
2 18 ms 16 ms 16 ms losubs.subs.dsl2.wh-man.zen.net.uk [62.3.87.14
3 16 ms 16 ms 16 ms ge-2-1-0-164.cr1.wh-man.zen.co.uk [62.3.87.165
4 23 ms 23 ms 23 ms ge-3-0-0-0.cr2.th-lon.zen.net.uk [62.3.80.45]
5 22 ms 23 ms 23 ms ge-2-0-0-0.cr1.th-lon.zen.net.uk [62.3.80.41]
6 35 ms 23 ms 24 ms 82.71.254.134
7 * * * Request timed out.
8 * * * Request timed out.
9 23 ms 23 ms 23 ms ae0.er01.telhc.bbc.co.uk [132.185.254.109]
10 23 ms 23 ms 24 ms 132.185.255.149
11 23 ms 23 ms 23 ms bbc-vip115.telhc.bbc.co.uk [212.58.244.70]

The ping times went up when i moved to FTTC, always get approx 16ms on the first wan hop

Worth checking if interleaving has been turned on by DLM, this affects latency.

Also depends how far you are physically from the POP, and whose backhaul you're using. For example, if you're quite a way from Manchester on BT's backhaul and interleaved, you times could be normal.

Caffn8me *could* have the perfect scenario. FAST path, close to London POP, and using Zen's backhaul as she states.

Cheers,
AP

I have another perfect scenario today; a new installation in Chiswick.

I'm getting 80/20 sync with pings to www.bbc.co.uk averaging 5ms again.

This is with a Draytek 2860 router and no Openreach modem. I believe Chiswick is on Zen backhaul.

Tracing route to www.bbc.net.uk [212.58.246.94]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms AOK [192.168.254.1]
2 16 ms 16 ms 16 ms losubs.subs.dsl5.th-lon.zen.net.uk [62.3.84.23]
3 16 ms 20 ms 16 ms ge-2-1-0-123.cr2.th-lon.zen.net.uk [62.3.84.225]
4 32 ms 15 ms 16 ms ge-2-0-0-0.cr1.th-lon.zen.net.uk [62.3.80.41]
5 34 ms 32 ms 37 ms 82.71.254.134
6 * * * Request timed out.
7 17 ms 18 ms 16 ms ae0.er01.cwwtf.bbc.co.uk [132.185.254.93]
8 17 ms 17 ms 18 ms 132.185.255.165
9 17 ms 17 ms 16 ms bbc-vip015.cwwtf.bbc.co.uk [212.58.246.94]

Trace complete.

Tracing route to bbc.co.uk [212.58.246.104]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms router.*******.co.uk [10.0.0.254]
2 13 ms 13 ms 12 ms losubs.subs.dsl2.th-lon.zen.net.uk [62.3.84.21]

3 13 ms 13 ms 13 ms ge-2-1-0-129.cr2.th-lon.zen.net.uk [62.3.84.245]

4 13 ms 13 ms 12 ms ge-2-0-0-0.cr1.th-lon.zen.net.uk [62.3.80.41]
5 13 ms 13 ms 13 ms rt-lonap-b.thdo.bbc.co.uk [5.57.80.91]
6 * * * Request timed out.
7 14 ms 14 ms 14 ms ae0.er01.cwwtf.bbc.co.uk [132.185.254.93]
8 15 ms 15 ms 14 ms 132.185.255.165
9 14 ms 14 ms 14 ms fmt-vip133.cwwtf.bbc.co.uk [212.58.246.104]

Trace complete.

Zen Unlimited fibre 2 from Cornwall.
Love the service.

There are two things that can consistently make bad pings.

1) interleaving. Your line would be the same with Zen, Infinity or any other ISP; they would all have the same interleaving. You can see interleaving if the first hop (line 2 of tracert) is more then 7ms or so.

2) bad internal routing. This will differ between ISPs. I suffer with BT as my routing goes Winchester->Sheffield->London before leaving BT, adding about 9ms to ping times. I hope that Zen users would not see this. My bbc ping is around 20ms. Was around 30ms when I had interleaving.

Some people on Infinity have everything OK and get 6ms ping times.

1) interleaving. Your line would be the same with Zen, Infinity or any other ISP; they would all have the same interleaving. You can see interleaving if the first hop (line 2 of tracert) is more then 7ms or so

Not nescerceraly correct ,As it depends on where in the country you are, as well as the data transit provider used, where i live 12-13ms is around the lowest latency possible on (Fast path)

Athough those who live close to a POP be that BT's or other ISP's will alway fair better on the latency front, it's a post code lottery pretty much

Edited by tommy45 (Wed 20-Aug-14 21:42:41)

It all depends on whether your exchange uses BT backhaul or Zen backhaul. On the best connection I manage which has Zen backhaul, pings to www.bbc.co.uk are around 5ms.

My own Zen connection, with BT backhaul, syncs at 80/20 and has no interleaving. I get 24ms to www.bbc.co.uk - going from London via Zen's Manchester POP (I believe it's in Telecity, Williams House) and back to London. Of that, the first hop from my router to the Zen POP is 17ms. That's BT backhaul for you.

Edited by caffn8me (Thu 21-Aug-14 00:29:25)

think your self lucky, my backhall is terrible: I Live in Leeds and my Zen pop is in Manchester.

traceroute to www.bbc.co.uk (212.58.246.95), 30 hops max, 40 byte packets
1 82-70-x-x.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk (82.70.x.x) 0.988 ms 1.043 ms 0.789 ms
2 losubs.subs.dsl1.wh-man.zen.net.uk (62.3.87.145) 23.008 ms 21.195 ms 26.694 ms
3 ge-2-1-0-160.cr1.wh-man.zen.co.uk (62.3.87.161) 21.889 ms 21.308 ms 21.901 ms
4 ge-3-0-0-0.cr2.th-lon.zen.net.uk (62.3.80.45) 28.018 ms 27.968 ms 27.566 ms
5 ge-2-0-0-0.cr1.th-lon.zen.net.uk (62.3.80.41) 27.478 ms 27.662 ms 27.772 ms
6 rt-lonap-b.thdo.bbc.co.uk (5.57.80.91) 27.482 ms 28.198 ms 27.498 ms
7 * * *
8 ae0.er01.cwwtf.bbc.co.uk (132.185.254.93) 29.760 ms 29.040 ms 29.562 ms
9 * * *

(23ms is a quick one mostly its 30+)

Its probably not a good sign that my Sync rate changes at least once a day though.
Hopefully things will change soon though they just installed a FTTC cab and it might even get enabled in the next year or so

So you're on ADSL and I'm on 80/20 fibre and your latency i only 3ms worse than mine? I wouldn't think myself that lucky.

In reply to a post by caffn8me:

My own Zen connection, with BT backhaul, syncs at 80/20 and has no interleaving. I get 24ms to www.bbc.co.uk - going from London via Zen's Manchester POP (I believe it's in Telecity, Williams House) and back to London. Of that, the first hop from my router to the Zen POP is 17ms.

If you're in London, and your first hop is Manchester, then I would wager something is not quite right. As Zen have a presence in London, I would expect your first hop to be there. Probably worth getting in touch with support if you are actually bothered about a few ms extra latency.

I'm sure it's a function of using BT backhaul with the handoff to Zen's network in Manchester. I wouldn't expect BT to handoff to the Zen POP nearest to each customer. All I can hope is that at some stage, Zen puts a POP in my exchange.

As for quantifying the extra latency, it's not a few extra ms - it's a 480% increase to www.bbc.co.uk and a significant increase to the first hop Zen router.

In reply to a post by caffn8me:

I'm sure it's a function of using BT backhaul with the handoff to Zen's network in Manchester. I wouldn't expect BT to handoff to the Zen POP nearest to each customer.

For each customer connection BT queries the ISP to find out where to terminate it. This is done on authentication. If Zen have a presence in London - which they do, you would expect them to direct your circuit to there rather than Manchester.

In reply to a post by Geordish:

In reply to a post by caffn8me:

I'm sure it's a function of using BT backhaul with the handoff to Zen's network in Manchester. I wouldn't expect BT to handoff to the Zen POP nearest to each customer.

For each customer connection BT queries the ISP to find out where to terminate it. This is done on authentication. If Zen have a presence in London - which they do, you would expect them to direct your circuit to there rather than Manchester.

Interesting As Zen do have a presents in Leeds too not sure if its a pop though, i have traced a route back to my adsl from other locations on the net and often it goes via zen's linx, to Zen Leeds then to Zen Manchester for its trip back over BT backhaul...



traceroute to 82-70-x-x.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk (82.70.x.x), 30 hops max, 60 byte packets
1 x.x.x.x (x.x.x.x) 0.437 ms 0.673 ms 0.668 ms
2 x.x.x.x (x.x.x.x) 0.910 ms 1.149 ms 1.392 ms
3 pc5-111.gr10.telon.uk.easynet.net (87.86.69.128) 4.464 ms 4.706 ms 4.703 ms
4 linx-1.zen.net.uk (195.66.224.158) 2.113 ms 2.357 ms 2.354 ms
5 ge-2-0-0-0.cr1.th-lon.zen.net.uk (62.3.80.41) 7.073 ms 7.315 ms 7.312 ms
6 ge-3-0-0-0.cr2.kp-leeds.zen.net.uk (62.3.80.77) 12.403 ms 12.064 ms 12.040 ms
7 ge-3-1-0-0.cr1.kp-leeds.zen.net.uk (62.3.80.73) 15.098 ms 11.993 ms 11.940 ms
8 ge-3-0-0-0.cr2.wh-man.zen.net.uk (62.3.80.57) 8.771 ms 8.971 ms 8.924 ms
9 ge2-2-124.subs.dsl6.wh-man.zen.net.uk (62.3.86.42) 9.060 ms 8.803 ms 9.055 ms
10 82-70-x-x.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk (82.70.x.x) 29.531 ms 30.346 ms 31.461 ms

In reply to a post by caffn8me:

So you're on ADSL and I'm on 80/20 fibre and your latency i only 3ms worse than mine? I wouldn't think myself that lucky.

ok Every one else apart from you

Edited by RichTea23 (Fri 22-Aug-14 12:32:44)

latency are terrible when kaspersky internet security is enabled.

The answer is that there is unspecified maintenance at my exchange which will continue for an undertermined amount of time, after which I should route via London.

In reply to a post by adslmax:

latency are terrible when kaspersky internet security is enabled.

Wrong, I have 14ms with kaspersky enabled

In reply to a post by Huntyz:

Wrong, I have 14ms with kaspersky enabled

Disabled it, u will see 8ms!

In reply to a post by caffn8me:

The answer is that there is unspecified maintenance at my exchange which will continue for an undertermined amount of time, after which I should route via London.

I would wager with a response like that you are on the Zen backhaul. I have never seen any kind of BT maintenance which would require a single exchange to require terminating at a different PoP.

What exchange are you on? Remember FTTC has a concept of parent and child exchanged so while your exchange may not be directly on the Zen network, the parent exchange may be.

I'm on LSPUT - not listed as having a Zen POP - although neighbouring exchanges are.