MSE thread on deceased Zen subscriber

Can someone from Zen look at this one:
Thread on the MSE broadband sub-forum about Zen 'acting up' over the death of a subscriber.
See Contract cancellation on death
Does it have to be explained in large letters to you (Zen)
CONTRACTS ARE VOID ON DEATH
You cannot claim cancellation charges off the estate/executor as there is no contract to cancel.
The executor has even offered to send you the death certificate.......

Oooooh A litigation open drain when it comes to money for Zen.

Best to action it - much much cheaper.

What you say, that death voids contracts, is untrue in most cases. Some contracts are void on death (like the provision of a personal service), but in general contracts which involve a financial commitment do not, unless they contain specific terms. It is then a matter for the deceased's estate to settle early termination clauses.

For instance, if you die whilst you have an outstanding loan on a car, then the balance is still recoverable from the deceased person's estate.

So the actual position depends on the nature of the contract.

Note, I'm not commenting on Zen's position, or even anything specific to this case. However, what is definitely wrong is to state that a contract is necessarily void on death. In most cases it will be terminated with whatever rules are established for its early ending. A contract being voided (which means it is treated, as far as possible, as if it never existed and is not enforceable in law) and a contract being terminated are very different things.

Edited by deleted (Fri 12-Jun-15 21:51:34)

In reply to a post by zom22:

Does it have to be explained in large letters to you (Zen)
CONTRACTS ARE VOID ON DEATH
You cannot claim cancellation charges off the estate/executor as there is no contract to cancel.
The executor has even offered to send you the death certificate.......

Absolute nonsense ......... the contract stands and as stated the executor needs to finalise the account.

What do you think happens to utility bills like gas and electric?

Until the property is sold and handed to another owner, all utilities used have to be paid for.

I would guess the person had FTTC services, as such Zen will be passing on the cancellation fee changed to them by BT (Wholesale/Openreach).

Indeed Death does not void contracts, or life insurance (and other such) company's would be useless.

The people commenting on the MSE (and this) site are not legal advisers.

The MSE thread is about TERMINATION charges not charges for services supplied.

Or for another example if the deceased had a 5 year 'savings bond' with a building society with penalties for early withdrawal during the term then upon death all those penalties vanish and the executor can withdraw the money penalty free to pay out the estate.

You were the user of the term "voided". Early termination is a wholly different thing, and with most contracts it will be the early termination conditions that are invoked in the case of death. There may be specific conditions specified in the contract for such eventualities. In the case of fixed term bonds, there is no single answer. As this adviser states, most providers will not insist that the bond goes to maturity, but that cannot be guaranteed. In any event, there's no sense in which any such contract is "voided" as you claimed.

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/experts/article-2...

The type of contract that will be voided is those where the deceased is unable to provide a service. Clearly if a painter contracted to produce a portrait, that can't be legally enforced. In that case the contract can be considered "void". Otherwise it remains in force and is settled according to the terms of the contract and any policies of the other contracted party.

Hi
Recently had very similar with family member and had to settle all utilitly contracts and had to pay termination fee etc with Plusnet, so I believe posters on MSE are not correct.
K

The contract is with the legal person which the live human chooses to represent through out their life, for the purpose civil interaction with our established society. Whilst the live human is dead, the legal person and the estate associated with that legal person still has to be overseen by executors for allowing it to settle with any creditors, suppliers and any contracts involved with those entities.

So I personally believe the commenters on MSE are wrong. Although what I believe and what is legal fact is of course very different.

In the law of England and Wales, contracts are terminated by performance, agreement, breach or frustration. In most cases, contracts are performed in full, or are terminated by agreement - either by exercise of termination rights in the original contract, or by a further contract that amends the original contract and brings the contract to an end.


Voidability often relates to termination by breach. If there is a repudiatory breach, such as a breach of a major term known as a condition, the innocent party has the right to terminate the contract, or to affirm the contract and pursue the counterparty for damages. As such, the contract can be thought of a voidable.

There are other circumstances that make a contract voidable, including misrepresentation, undue influence or duress.

There is no general rule that death of a party makes a contract voidable.

In reply to a post by TheEulerID:

What you say, that death voids contracts, is untrue in most cases. Some contracts are void on death (like the provision of a personal service), but in general contracts which involve a financial commitment do not, unless they contain specific terms. It is then a matter for the deceased's estate to settle early termination clauses.

Provision of a personal service that becomes impossible after the provider's death will frustrate the contract.

In reply to a post by TheEulerID:

For instance, if you die whilst you have an outstanding loan on a car, then the balance is still recoverable from the deceased person's estate.

So the actual position depends on the nature of the contract.

Quite right - in general, all obligations, liabilities and benefits pass to the estate after death.

In reply to a post by TheEulerID:

Note, I'm not commenting on Zen's position, or even anything specific to this case. However, what is definitely wrong is to state that a contract is necessarily void on death. In most cases it will be terminated with whatever rules are established for its early ending. A contract being voided (which means it is treated, as far as possible, as if it never existed and is not enforceable in law) and a contract being terminated are very different things.

As you rightly say, if there are express termination provisions applying to death, they will take effect. If not, the contract likely remains in force with the estate standing in the place of the deceased party.

In this case, the MSE thread says there has been a fire at the address served. I haven't thought about this in detail, though it is possible the fire frustrates the contract. That said, if there is any insurance on the property that covers inability to use services after fire, I'd leave the matter with the insurers to sort, letting them worry about whether to consider the legal ramifications of the situation or negotiate termination arrangements with Zen.

Edited by deleted (Sat 13-Jun-15 15:35:43)

In reply to a post by keymaster:

Hi
Recently had very similar with family member and had to settle all utilitly contracts and had to pay termination fee etc with Plusnet, so I believe posters on MSE are not correct.
K

Sorry for your loss.

PN used to demand birth cert but they dropped that after some hot water. I remember that well.

At its best, MSE forum discussion contains a lot of helpful and accurate information. At its worst, MSE forum discussion is frustrating, with posters contradicting correct information based on what they believe is the correct answer or what they believe should happen.

Having ploughed into the MSE thread, I wish I hadn't bothered. There are several people who appear unwilling to accept my explanations that the customer's death doesn't frustrate the contract but refuse to give any legal justification for their assertion.


Though it was necessary to consider frustration to give a complete answer, it is important to remember that frustration of a contract is a rare event. Most customer death situations are resolved by explicit contractual terms about customer death (which might be found in a force majeure clause - a key purpose of a force majeure clause is to bring greater clarity to situations that might otherwise lead to frustration) or by agreement between the successors and the provider.

I don't share the opinion of those who feel that Zen should automatically write off an early termination fee following the customer's death. In this case, the fire might mean there is insurance cover for utility termination fees. If that turns out not to be the case, hopefully Zen can agree terms that are acceptable to the executor in order to bring this matter to a dignified close.

This situation is very sad indeed but aside from asking the poster to make contact a company isn't likely to act on a forum post on a third party forum because it will be bound to protect personal details by law.

I agree - all very sad.

But a simple reply here responding to the original poster asking them to contact them directly would have been nice to see...

The original poster has updated the MSE thread to say that, following further discussion, Zen have agreed to waive all the charges.

Sounds good.
As they are TBB members some sort of response here would have been nice to see...

I see no reason to think they are TBB members. It was the mention of Which? that helped apparently.

And to add another to your list, house rent, with associated items.

When a relative died, the only items that were not actually charge for in that group, but could have been, was the clearance of remaining odds and ends of furniture and cleaning of the property.

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I wonder if any of those who think that contracts are "void" at death have ever seen the notices generally published in the newspapers of the area, asking that anyone who is owed cash etc by the Deceased or owes cash to the Deceased, should contact the Executor.

If all contracts were voided by Death, there would be no need for such adverts.

I am surprised no one from here has said anything on the thread at all.

I am glad it has been sorted and I am flagging this internally as well. I have noted over the past 12months a decline in the presence of staff on the forum and I'll do what I can to rectify this.

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Edit: Just to follow up on this. I have been made aware this morning that we contacted the customer directly after seeing this post to resolve the issue directly.

Edited by deleted (Tue 23-Jun-15 09:28:05)