New order with Zen - activation charges

I had a terrible experience trying to sign up for EE Broadband, so decided to try with Zen today. My flat is part of a new build and there's already a phone socket in the flat itself, but since I'm the first resident, the line (if it exists) is not active.

Since Zen require a phone number to sign up online, I rang them up on my mobile today to place the order for a broadband + line rental package. I told them my address and mentioned that there was already a socket in the flat. I was told that an engineer would have to come to the flat itself to install a new line, costing £118.80. In addition, I've been charged another £48 for the activation at the cabinet.

I went along with all of it, not knowing anything about the infrastructure of these things, and also under the assurance that BT charge £130 for the same installation (actually, it seems that if you order home broadband + line rental from BT, there is a single fee for a new line rather than two, and it costs considerably less).

I've since spoken to my neighbour in the flat next door. He had an engineer come out for his EE order and apparently the engineer came into his flat, took a reading from the existing socket, then went out and activated the line from the cabinet - no actual rewiring took place inside his flat. So am I right in saying that the £118.80 installation fee shouldn't actually be necessary? Even if I did need a new line installed, surely there shouldn't have been an activation fee on top of that anyway?

I'm obviously going to get back in touch with Zen, but was wondering if anyone has an idea what the situation is and what it should be.

EDIT: Just checked my Order Progress. The Broadband Provision (£48 + £16p/m) has status

"LLU - Check sim order has been matched by Openreach - IN PROGRESS FOR 3 HOURS"

while the Line Rental Activation (£118 + £17p/m) has status

"Has order been delayed for more than 1 day? - FAILED 21/09/2015 15:30"

Edited by deleted (Mon 21-Sep-15 19:29:08)

I had both of them when I went from ADSL between someone else and Zen. The activation process is a bit weird but it all works out in the end. The line rental activation should be pending I think but as they are going to do a SIM provide both will activate at the same time anyway.

Call them - they will sort it for you.

My understanding is that in a new build the phone socket and wiring will have been installed by the developer and there is a charge for BT to do whatever work is required at the exchange/cabinet and possibly in the basement/comms area of the block.

If ordering line + broadband from BT they may well waive or reduce the charges but I doubt that option is available to Zen.

Dear JCDenhouse,

Because there is no active phone line at the property, an engineer would typically visit the premises to ensure all internal wiring is intact and to confirm your line has been successfully installed � this is the £118 telephone line activation fee.

As you�ve taken two services from us � telephone and broadband � there are two activation fees (£118 for your telephone, £48 for your broadband). These fees are something which other providers also charge, but they may choose to recoup the cost by binding you into longer term contracts whereas we have just one month rolling contracts.

We�re more than happy to talk through further � if you provide your contact details in a private message, we'll get in touch.

Thanks,

Zen

Mis read which bb product type the op ordered wow £48 to activate adsl2+ services , FTTC is cheaper

Edited by tommy45 (Wed 23-Sep-15 12:44:50)

You really DO need to get verified. I as a customer won't accept anything you say as official OR true until you do

Sorry but that's just the way it is on public forums

In reply to a post by JCDenhouse:

I had a terrible experience trying to sign up for EE Broadband, so decided to try with Zen today. My flat is part of a new build and there's already a phone socket in the flat itself, but since I'm the first resident, the line (if it exists) is not active.

And that's the real thing that matters - the Openreach charge is the same regardless, where there is no active line (as in still has dial tone), regardless of whether any infrastructure at all exists - this can be good news (when you have a lot of cabling to be installed including street works) or bad (when it's not a big job). It's the same though for all, except in that one limited case.

On that score at least, all is exactly as I would expect.

In reply to a post by ZenUserJP:

You really DO need to get verified. I as a customer won't accept anything you say as official OR true until you do
Sorry but that's just the way it is on public forums

Sorry - this delay has been down to us. Apologies.

In reply to a post by seb:

In reply to a post by ZenUserJP:

You really DO need to get verified. I as a customer won't accept anything you say as official OR true until you do
Sorry but that's just the way it is on public forums

Sorry - this delay has been down to us. Apologies.

No problem Seb - Thank you for replying.

Thank you for sorting, Seb

In reply to a post by ZenInternetPR:

Thank you for sorting, Seb

Thank you for getting verified. It might sound petty to some but knowing you have proved you are from Zen makes the trust issue dissolve. Should you have not been verified and say asked me to send my details over PM you would have got a very strong decline. But now it's fine

In reply to a post by tommy45:

Mis read which bb product type the op ordered wow £48 to activate adsl2+ services , FTTC is cheaper

No its more actually... the £48 is for any type of DSL activation... and then theres a fibre fee on top of that of about £30.

Here's some clarification on our activation costs and contracts:

� ADSL New Activation £48, 1 month contract
� ADSL Transfer from another ISP FREE, 1 month contract
� FTTC New Activation £30, 12 month contract
� FTTC Transfer from another ISP £30, 12 month contract

Thanks,

Zen.

So installing a brand new line for FTTC doesn't cost you £48 before the fibre fee...

I say this as I'm lead to believe the "wholesale' costs for connecting a new line is around £50 for any type of DSL and then theres a £30 fee for fibre!

or does Zen absorb the costs with the 12 month contract?

Edited by mlmclaren (Fri 25-Sep-15 12:57:37)

I was quoted £48 to activate ADSL but with the other costs for a line and stuff it was cheaper for me to go to another ISP and then migrate to you. I can't recall the exact cost but the cheaper ISP to get me up and running was Andrews & Arnold so your price had to be steep (around £180 I think) thats for a line - ADSL first month and line rental.

But when I transfered ADSL to you it was free and you charged me £30 to activate FTTC so that's all correct

I think they wanted around £125 for the line where as AA wanted £60 for just a copper pair.

Edited by deleted (Fri 25-Sep-15 20:16:26)

In reply to a post by mlmclaren:

So installing a brand new line for FTTC doesn't cost you £48 before the fibre fee...

I say this as I'm lead to believe the "wholesale' costs for connecting a new line is around £50 for any type of DSL and then theres a £30 fee for fibre!

or does Zen absorb the costs with the 12 month contract?

Why would there be a £48 adsl fee , if you are ordering FTTC you don't need adsl first to be able to order FTTC

Edited by tommy45 (Fri 25-Sep-15 20:33:33)

If you look above I said DSL not 'a'DSL

I've never known there was a difference between ADSL and DSL - DSL is always what americans used to call their internet.

In reply to a post by tommy45:

In reply to a post by mlmclaren:

So installing a brand new line for FTTC doesn't cost you £48 before the fibre fee...

I say this as I'm lead to believe the "wholesale' costs for connecting a new line is around £50 for any type of DSL and then theres a £30 fee for fibre!

or does Zen absorb the costs with the 12 month contract?

Why would there be a £48 adsl fee , if you are ordering FTTC you don't need adsl first to be able to order FTTC

Unless you were ordering ADSL there wouldn't be - FTTC is just £30 fee

In reply to a post by ZenUserJP:

I've never known there was a difference between ADSL and DSL - DSL is always what americans used to call their internet.

FTTC is also DSL... it's vDSL ...

In reply to a post by ZenUserJP:

Unless you were ordering ADSL there wouldn't be - FTTC is just £30 fee

On Zen that's how it seems.... but I've been told something different elsewhere...

I've been told that if I was to order a 'new' line for FTTC I would have to pay the normal new line installation cost which was £90 with this provider... then I would need to pay £80 for service activation... £50 for 'DSL' activation and £30 for fibre activation.

The charges above where all quoted to be the wholesale costs from either BT Wholesale or Openreach and would not be subsidised by the SP as they didn't offer any contracts, they also said that these costs would probably be charged again during the event of a line move where no active DSL line was present.

In reply to a post by mlmclaren:

In reply to a post by ZenUserJP:

Unless you were ordering ADSL there wouldn't be - FTTC is just £30 fee

On Zen that's how it seems.... but I've been told something different elsewhere...

I've been told that if I was to order a 'new' line for FTTC I would have to pay the normal new line installation cost which was £90 with this provider... then I would need to pay £80 for service activation... £50 for 'DSL' activation and £30 for fibre activation.

The charges above where all quoted to be the wholesale costs from either BT Wholesale or Openreach and would not be subsidised by the SP as they didn't offer any contracts, they also said that these costs would probably be charged again during the event of a line move where no active DSL line was present.

Let me take a guess at who the ISP is , Pulse8? If so they can now order FTTC without you having to order adsl first then order FTTC , thought what and why there is 3 fees for activation ill never know,

Even if you had to order adsl there would only be 2 activation/connection charges raised by BTOR , the £80 fee sounds like an FTTC engineer install fee supply modem & supply & fit faceplate , which would include connection fees , So someone has told you incorrect info

As for the line, if you already have a working line then why would you need to order a new one? most if not all SP's will migrate working lines for free, I hope you told them where to stick it

In reply to a post by jphilip:

My understanding is that in a new build the phone socket and wiring will have been installed by the developer and there is a charge for BT to do whatever work is required at the exchange/cabinet and possibly in the basement/comms area of the block.

If ordering line + broadband from BT they may well waive or reduce the charges but I doubt that option is available to Zen.

BT Consumer (BT Retail as was) gets no special treatment from Openreach - if BT or any other provider waive the charges, its either because the charge wasn't raised by Openreach or because they're swallowing the costs themselves (bearing in mind most providers require at least a 12 month contract, or more expensive 9 month 'student' contract). Or third possibility, the provider's systems are duff and so fail to pass the charges on to the customer. Or fourth possibility, the call centre sales agent doesn't apply the charges to the customer that they're supposed to (either on purpose or accidental omission).

For what it's worth, Sky have a low new line charge of £20.

Right, Let me go through this step by step again to make sure every detail is translated correctly...

I approached Pulse8 about transferring my Plusnet FTTC line to them.

I was told no as at the time they where having issues with transferring lines (as we all know)

I then told them I had an inactive 2nd line, they told me the following...

To reactivate a line (if possible) it would cost £50 to start a stopped line, £50 to add DSL to it and £30 fibre fee... or if the line couldn't be restarted it would have to be new at £90 for engineer visit, £50 for DSL activation and £30 for fibre activation....

Too clarify all the charges above where to go straight to fibre... and no messing with ADSL and Upgrades...

I got this information confirmed to me twice via email and then when I called Adam Fullalove myself, of course I didn't go for it, but I would like to get this confirmed as they did seem pretty adamant about these charges.

If I look at Pulse8's site now it looks like some prices have changed... but they still say a new line is £90, Broadband activation (for lines without any) £50 and then fibre ON-site/Self Install Fibre fee £75....

In reply to a post by mlmclaren:

Right, Let me go through this step by step again to make sure every detail is translated correctly...

I approached Pulse8 about transferring my Plusnet FTTC line to them.

I was told no as at the time they where having issues with transferring lines (as we all know)

I then told them I had an inactive 2nd line, they told me the following...

To reactivate a line (if possible) it would cost £50 to start a stopped line, £50 to add DSL to it and £30 fibre fee... or if the line couldn't be restarted it would have to be new at £90 for engineer visit, £50 for DSL activation and £30 for fibre activation....

Too clarify all the charges above where to go straight to fibre... and no messing with ADSL and Upgrades...

I got this information confirmed to me twice via email and then when I called Adam Fullalove myself, of course I didn't go for it, but I would like to get this confirmed as they did seem pretty adamant about these charges.

If I look at Pulse8's site now it looks like some prices have changed... but they still say a new line is £90, Broadband activation (for lines without any) £50 and then fibre ON-site/Self Install Fibre fee £75....

On-Site Fibre New Install (No Existing Broadband) £125 (£104.17 +V.A.T.)
(On-site installation by Open Reach engineer to fit Modem, VDSL Faceplate and test connection using your own or one of our preconfigured
routers which are available at extra cost. See prices below

is what they are charging for FTTC if you don't already have an active FTTC service, plus whatever they charge for a new line

This Broadband Activation fee £50.00 wouldn't/shouldn't apply as you have already paid for activation in the new install fee , every other ISP and BT openreach include it in the install fee, So pulse8 are charging twice?

Edited by tommy45 (Sat 26-Sep-15 12:44:47)

In reply to a post by tommy45:

On-Site Fibre New Install (No Existing Broadband) £125 (£104.17 +V.A.T.)
(On-site installation by Open Reach engineer to fit Modem, VDSL Faceplate and test connection using your own or one of our preconfigured
routers which are available at extra cost. See prices below

is what they are charging for FTTC if you don't already have an active FTTC service, plus whatever they charge for a new line

So as above then...

£125 (£50 DSL Activation + £75 Fibre Activation Managed/Self) + new line of £90 ...

So do we agree that Pulse8 charge for DSL and Fibre Activation even when its a fresh FTTC install and no ADSL service is required?

In reply to a post by mlmclaren:

In reply to a post by tommy45:

On-Site Fibre New Install (No Existing Broadband) £125 (£104.17 +V.A.T.)
(On-site installation by Open Reach engineer to fit Modem, VDSL Faceplate and test connection using your own or one of our preconfigured
routers which are available at extra cost. See prices below

is what they are charging for FTTC if you don't already have an active FTTC service, plus whatever they charge for a new line

So as above then...

£125 (£50 DSL Activation + £75 Fibre Activation Managed/Self) + new line of £90 ...

So do we agree that Pulse8 charge for DSL and Fibre Activation even when its a fresh FTTC install and no ADSL service is required?

But they should not be doing this the way i read it is this if not active FTTC service on the line they charge £125 for engineer install this includes any activation charges, the extra £50 is probably to claw back some of the 12min term that BTOR will hold the ISP to for FTTC ? the other £75 so called upgrade fee would be the same engineer install but because you have already have their BB (ADSL) they charge less, possibly because they have made a profit from the activation fee for the adsl previously , as they use tt they wont be charged the singleton level fee, as tt will do bulk orders and the cost will be a lot lower
But it's a rolling monthly min term , I don't think i would be migrating my FTTC to them if they are charging silly activation fees, as BTOR no longer requires a 12 mth min term for FTTC that have been active for 12mths or more , and they also reduced their fees for migration i wouldn't pay them more than £30

I wish you would of paragraphed that a bit better lol

Anyway, yes Pulse8 shouldn't be charging what they are, no provider is held to a minimum term for FTTC products anymore though I was told that they are charged 'more' for ceasing a service within the first 3 months of it being setup.

Pulse8 said to me that if they where migrating the service to an active ADSL or FTTC line then would only charge the £30 fibre fee, but if the line had no active DSL services (ADSL or VDSL/FTTC) then I would also need to pay another £50.

So it seems that something fishy is going on then... I knew something wasn't right!

In reply to a post by mlmclaren:

no provider is held to a minimum term for FTTC products anymore though I was told that they are charged 'more' for ceasing a service within the first 3 months of it being setup.

They are if for the 1st 12mth period for all new FTTC installs I have seen the BT OR contract T&c's as of 11/2014

The minimum period of service for the GEA-FTTC Service to an individual Site is either:
(a) 12 months commencing on the date of provision of the GEA-FTTC Service; or
(b) where the GEA-FTTC Service is provided via a �CP to CP GEA migration�, 1 month commencing on the date of provision of the GEA-FTTC Service.
If the Communications Provider terminates the GEA-FTTC Service before the end of the minimum period of service other than under clause 2.2(a) or 2.8 of the Conditions, the Communications Provider shall pay BT the rental for the unexpired portion of the minimum period

In reply to a post by mlmclaren:

Pulse8 said to me that if they where migrating the service to an active ADSL or FTTC line then would only charge the £30 fibre fee, but if the line had no active DSL services (ADSL or VDSL/FTTC) then I would also need to pay another £50.

So it seems that something fishy is going on then... I knew something wasn't right!

If they are charging for an engineer install then there should be no further activation fee regardless of if you have adsl running on the line,or not,

The same would apply if you ordered FTTC and line rental from them, This mystery£50 i think is being wrongly quoted/applied ,

(until recently they were not able to successfully order FTTC products without firstly ordering ADSL ,which incurs a further£48-£50 one off fee ,but they have said that they now can order FTTC without ordering ADSL first )

as it makes zero difference to them cost wise ( they are not charged any further activation fees by OR)

Did you enquire as to what exactly the £50 fee is for what product is it for ?

The FTTC><Migration fee of £30 is fairly standard, BT's costs to ISP's is £11.00 +vat
Though some charge more Plusnet for example charge £50 if you don't want their line rental

Edited by tommy45 (Sat 26-Sep-15 16:41:45)

I think those Ts & Cs you say you have seen have changed since then..

Yes I did ask Pulse8 exactly what all fee's where for, I was under the same understanding as you with regard to ADSL of FTTC fee's and also was under the impression that if an engineer is booked that no further fee's where required.

So it seems that Pulse8 is pulling a fast one maybe.

As i'm looking at the last one published Conditions for Generic Ethernet Access
Schedule 2B � GEA-FTTC ServiceIssue 4.0 Dated: 6 January 2015
I would very much doubt anything has changed as yet those changes where only brought about due to Ofcom intervention,They still failed us the consumer as ISP's are under no obligation to pass on these changes and lower prices ECT for FTTC migration

CP-CP GEA Migration - same product/premisesfrom November 2014 is £11.00 used to be £50 The PCP only install is £50.00 all prices exclude VAT
Fibre to the Cabinet Held to Term charges is 9% for remaining months rental charges

some llu mpf pricing

Edited by tommy45 (Sat 26-Sep-15 16:48:48)

anyway... I've submitted a query to Pulse8 for a full quote for new line, basic line rental and upto 76mbps service...

will see if I get anything back and if so what!

I Will have a look throught the information you have provided when I have some more time.

Hey Tommy, had an email back from Pulse8, I asked:

Hi, could you quote me all costs for a new line install at '***, Crawley, West Sussex, RH11 ***' I would be looking to get basic line line rental with up to 76Mbps fibre service.Thanks.

They have responded with:

A new line with Fibre installed would cost the following:

1 x New Line = £90
1 x New Fibre Installation Charge = £125

If you need a Router then we do 3 x different models all of which are pre-configured and shipped to your door.

Are there any existing wires in the property that we can use? Or is it a new build?

So thats more than what I was quoted via phone before!!

I replied asking for a breakdown of charges for the "New Line Fibre Install Charge"

In reply to a post by mlmclaren:

They have responded with:

A new line with Fibre installed would cost the following:

1 x New Line = £90
1 x New Fibre Installation Charge = £125
So thats more than what I was quoted via phone before!!

I replied asking for a breakdown of charges for the "New Line Fibre Install Charge

I would expect the FTTC install fee will include a Engineer visit and supply modem, and supply &fit ssfp and data extension if needed
BT or charge ISP's £92 +vat for that, their FTTC monthly subs are a tad on the high side considering it's not BTW based (Full MPF) I would be expecting Full throughput 24/7 for that ,
The new line charge is a bit high though IMO but there is no contracts as such,and LR isn't over priced, so i guess they have to make a profit where they can

Edited by tommy45 (Mon 28-Sep-15 12:55:52)

I thought the wholesale charge of £92 was including provision of a new line...

I know ISP's subsidise some costs but not up to £215.

I think there is something wrong here!

had a reply..

The New Fibre install Charge what�s called in the industry a �SIM2 New Provide� which includes a £50 ADSL activation charge (to get the broadband circuit switched on) + £75 to upgrade it on the same day to Fibre.

Interesting yes?

Will ask why ADSL Activation is require?

If I wasn't suspicious I certainly am now..

3rd email:

With regards to the charges, you are indeed going to FTTC but in order to get there you need ADSL to start with. Before SIM2 (which only came out on the 1st June) we would have had to get the ADSL line up and running first and then wait a further 10days to upgrade you to Fibre. Now we can do it all in one hit and go straight to Fibre by getting the broadband and the fibre to go live on the same day.

Sounds like baloney to me, other CP's wouldn't fo this so why are they, if they're even doing that and not just pocketing cash.

Can somebody with knowledge of the wholesale costs please confirm how much it should cost a CP to provide a new line with 80/20 FTTC to MPF (LLU), I will have a look myself now but not sure I'm reading them correctly.

A new line provision WLR3 costs the CP around £45 +vat A PCP only FTTC install is around £48.00+vat managed install with Modem (visit to EU premiss) £92.00+vat
The FTTC install charges are the same regardless of if voice is MPF or WLR3

MPF Connection charge - New Provide Standard £45.74 + vat

If you were to use an active line
MPF Connection charge - Singleton migrations (Transfer from WLR/SMPF or Change of CP migrations) £30.76+vat

Are pulse 8 install; fees for FTTC PCP only or managed install with modem,?

Also there is no need for ADSL to even figure into the equation, as you cannot have ADSL on a FTTC service ,
SIM2 is typically Voice and PCP FTTC install from what i have read on it and it has been around before June this year

Me thinks who ever is replying to your questions isn't very knowledgeable on the subjects they are answering questions to

Edited by tommy45 (Mon 28-Sep-15 17:08:33)

OK, I asked for a managed install with modem...

From what is being said they will provide me with an ADSL line via TT LLU and then upgrade it to fibre as soon as its live.

On the two occasions I've contacted Pulse8 I've been talking to Adam Fullalove who I believe is the boss so I would hope they are knowledgable.

So setup costs at wholesale level is £45 +VAT (New Line) & £92 +VAT (FTTC Managed Install) so know where near the £215 then!

In reply to a post by mlmclaren:

OK, I asked for a managed install with modem...

From what is being said they will provide me with an ADSL line via TT LLU and then upgrade it to fibre as soon as its live.

On the two occasions I've contacted Pulse8 I've been talking to Adam Fullalove who I believe is the boss so I would hope they are knowledgable.

So setup costs at wholesale level is £45 +VAT (New Line) & £92 +VAT (FTTC Managed Install) so know where near the £215 then!

And still they are saying that they need to provision you on tt ADSL first incurring another fee of £48.00 + vat or are pulse8/tt going to swallow that ?

Because if it is purely down to TT's ineptness , not having a system in place or being able to manually place the correct orders, then they should not charge you a penny for connection of a temporary ADSL service ,

After all it does not need to be able to authenticate and provide internet access does it? otherwise they would probably charge you subscription for the 10days,lol , for something that you did not want or order,
I do wonder what they do with this unwanted / and no longer needed ADSL service, do they cease it, to free up the space on their ports at exchanges, do they get charged a adsl to fttc migration fee by BT , ?? Seems like a lot of unnecessary fees, & delays to me
Truth is they have already successfully managed to migrate a couple of members of this forum FTTC><FTTC without them having to do FTTC>ADSL2>FTTC
Which i am sure you are aware of as you commented in that thread

So what on the physical side is different with a new line and a migration of voice and FTTC from BTW i do not know apart from the managed +modem install part of it , assuming there is already a multi pair cable in place

Edited by tommy45 (Mon 28-Sep-15 18:49:44)

Well even if I was to have a self install it would be charged at £75.00 by them, the same as having an engineer...

Yes they are saying I need to have ADSL line and that will be migrated to FTTC on the same day but as we know Sky/BT would just go straight for the FTTC...

According to their social media account's they are now being successful and able to migrate BTw FTTC to their Fibre products and they have already said in their emails that as a new line I would go straight to fibre..

If I knew any better I would say they're pulling a fast one and pocketing the ADSL fee!

So glad I didn't consider trying to order from them.

In reply to a post by mlmclaren:

Well even if I was to have a self install it would be charged at £75.00 by them, the same as having an engineer...

Yes they are saying I need to have ADSL line and that will be migrated to FTTC on the same day but as we know Sky/BT would just go straight for the FTTC...

no , according to their detailed charges pdf

On-Site Fibre Upgrade (From Existing Broadband) £75 (£62.50 +V.A.T.)

On-Site Fibre New Install (No Existing Broadband) £125 (£104.17 +V.A.T.)

So £75 to migrate from their ADSL service to FTTC this when added to the broadband activation charge of £50.00 for the ADSL that you didn't want/use totals the same as the managed install fee £125.00 for FTTC the new line costs are on top of that , £90

So a total £215.00 up front then £44 per month + calls and any call features you specify ,

Edited by tommy45 (Mon 28-Sep-15 19:13:41)