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Standard User Steikums
(newbie) Thu 28-Jan-21 13:07:12
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Zen latency huge drop.


[link to this post]
 
So 3 nights ago at a few minutes past midnight i briefly lost internet but it came backup a few minutes later. After it reconnected i check my router graph on Thinkbroadband and my average latency went from 18ms down to 8ms

Did they change something recently as my connection has been about 18ms for the entire 19 months i've been with Zen or when it reconnected did i win some kind of lottery and now i never want to reboot my router ever again.


Thanks in advance.
Standard User Woolwich
(committed) Thu 28-Jan-21 13:31:57
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Re: Zen latency huge drop.


[re: Steikums] [link to this post]
 
Maybe you were moved over to the TalkTalk backhaul.

Obvs, I only half know what I'm on about and maybe someone with a full clue will be along shortly...
Standard User AndrewNi
(member) Thu 28-Jan-21 13:46:29
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Re: Zen latency huge drop.


[re: Steikums] [link to this post]
 
Several possibilities exist. On the modem side perhaps interleaving was on but is now off. Keeping an eye on modem stats can reveal if this happened.

For me though, it's the gateway, and it happens a lot. Take a look at this TTB graph from this morning.

My latency has doubled. I didn't even lose sync; the drop was with PPP.

Fast:

1 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms fritz.box [192.168.0.1]
2 40 ms 12 ms 12 ms vt1.cor1.lond1.ptn.zen.net.uk [51.148.72.21]
3 12 ms 12 ms 12 ms ae-8.p1.thn-lon.zen.net.uk [51.148.73.158]

Slow:

1 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms fritz.box [192.168.0.1]
2 23 ms 23 ms 24 ms vt1.cor2.lond2.ptn.zen.net.uk [51.148.72.24]
3 23 ms 23 ms 23 ms lag-8.p1.ixn-lon.zen.net.uk [51.148.73.188]

cor1.lond1 vs cor2.lond2.


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Standard User Steikums
(newbie) Thu 28-Jan-21 13:51:39
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Re: Zen latency huge drop.


[re: AndrewNi] [link to this post]
 
Mines never done this so was a bit confused to see my latency drop my 10ms, not complaining but i'd like to know why.

Although i've just thought about something. Been arguing with Zen for a few months because BTT + openreach have both said my equipment supports their 900/110 FTTP but my order always gets auto cancelled by OpenReach for some reason.

Two months on i finally got Zen to speak to OpenReach to update their system so it will allow me to get the 900/110 and that was early this week so i'm now wondering if it's anything to do with that.
Standard User Stanman_24
(knowledge is power) Thu 28-Jan-21 14:11:31
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Re: Zen latency huge drop.


[re: Woolwich] [link to this post]
 
waiting for Zen to offer 900/900 with city fibre

i know talk talk and vodafone offer it

KRO BCFC smile
Standard User MercuryRH2
(learned) Thu 28-Jan-21 16:51:17
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Re: Zen latency huge drop.


[re: Steikums] [link to this post]
 
I see this regularly in both directions - as in gets worse or better. Worth checking your logs to see exactly which ip address port you are connecting too on Zen’s side. In my case connecting to an IP address ending .23 or .24 results in a >20ms latency figure, whereas if it ends .21 or ,22 it’s just 7ms. I can see a step change in the BQM.

No change in the Openreach DSL sync rate at all. This change in latency happens every week or so and I use the TTB BQM to check what the line looks like every day. I have raised this with Zen and they say the higher latency ports are still ‘in spec’ and that they can also see the same as I do.

If I notice a latency change on the BQM then I just get the Fritz! Modem to drop the connection without dropping the line and after a couple of tries I end up moving from a .23 or .24 address to a .21 or .22 and job done.

I can only assume it’s a dodgy line card (or whatever users connect too) in their racks.
Standard User Steikums
(newbie) Thu 28-Jan-21 18:02:12
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Re: Zen latency huge drop.


[re: MercuryRH2] [link to this post]
 
https://imgur.com/1mxW5OP

That's basically how it always was and now how it's been for 3 days.
Standard User F9B54DA3BB3C
(learned) Thu 28-Jan-21 18:34:30
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Re: Zen latency huge drop.


[re: Steikums] [link to this post]
 
A Manchester vs London routing change can be worth about 10ms, depending on the details of where you are in the country and where you're measuring to.
Standard User Steikums
(newbie) Thu 28-Jan-21 18:42:04
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Re: Zen latency huge drop.


[re: F9B54DA3BB3C] [link to this post]
 
I'm in York but honestly this is the first time It's ever jumped in any direction. Is it likely to stay this way or am i running on a timer?
Standard User F9B54DA3BB3C
(learned) Thu 28-Jan-21 18:53:47
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Re: Zen latency huge drop.


[re: Steikums] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Steikums:
I'm in York but honestly this is the first time It's ever jumped in any direction. Is it likely to stay this way or am i running on a timer?


I'm honestly not sure, the latest information I have is that it was more likely to happen where Plexus (Zen's own backhaul network) had reached the handover exchange, but that it might still be load balanced to the further away one at a lower layer. My information is over a year old though, so it may no longer be accurate / relevant.
Standard User Steikums
(newbie) Fri 29-Jan-21 07:35:17
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Re: Zen latency huge drop.


[re: F9B54DA3BB3C] [link to this post]
 
Well it's still on around 8ms so i'm just going to slowly back away and hope that this is just the natural state now.

Thanks everyone for the replies.
Standard User jimbof
(newbie) Sat 06-Feb-21 14:06:59
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Re: Zen latency huge drop.


[re: AndrewNi] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by AndrewNi:
For me though, it's the gateway, and it happens a lot. Take a look at this TTB graph from this morning.

My latency has doubled. I didn't even lose sync; the drop was with PPP.

Following with interest; I've just signed up for 900/115 FTTP with Zen (not yet provisioned) and don't really want a "Latency lottery" - I last had that about 10 years ago with Plusnet and their various gateways. I reliably get 7-9ms pings from where I am (Norwich) on EE FTTC / and my fibre office broadband at the moment, those kind of increases in latency would really miff me.

Have you elicited any feedback from Zen as to why this happens and what it is about the gateways that is so different? It's not like there are a ton of hops there to figure out...
Standard User AndrewNi
(member) Sun 07-Feb-21 14:25:56
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Re: Zen latency huge drop.


[re: jimbof] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by jimbof:
Have you elicited any feedback from Zen as to why this happens and what it is about the gateways that is so different? It's not like there are a ton of hops there to figure out...

No, but I think I know. Zen have presences in Manchester and London. In the past, this was easily visible on a trace (wh-man.zen.net.uk & th-lon.zen.net.uk). Manchester had the higher latency for me because I'm in the SW.

Last year, Zen changed some things around behind the scenes. I reckon I'm connected to a Manchester gateway when the latency is high, even though it says lond in the domain.

It's an annoyance, but not worth pressing (for me).
Standard User jimbof
(newbie) Sun 07-Feb-21 17:07:17
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Re: Zen latency huge drop.


[re: AndrewNi] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by AndrewNi:
No, but I think I know. Zen have presences in Manchester and London. In the past, this was easily visible on a trace (wh-man.zen.net.uk & th-lon.zen.net.uk). Manchester had the higher latency for me because I'm in the SW.

Last year, Zen changed some things around behind the scenes. I reckon I'm connected to a Manchester gateway when the latency is high, even though it says lond in the domain.

It's an annoyance, but not worth pressing (for me).

Or perhaps those nodes really are London and the traffic goes via a different provider's infrastructure in the meantime.

Those sort of magnitudes of increase just seem wrong to me given I can get to Amsterdam and back in less round trip penalty.

I guess everyone has different thresholds of "bothered"...! smile

Do you still notice it happening, and as an aside, do your PPP sessions come and go very frequently? Is that because you reboot the router a lot?
Standard User AndrewNi
(member) Mon 08-Feb-21 11:36:40
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Re: Zen latency huge drop.


[re: jimbof] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by jimbof:
Do you still notice it happening, and as an aside, do your PPP sessions come and go very frequently? Is that because you reboot the router a lot?

It happens maybe 3 or 4 times a month. Sometimes it is the line that drops, but I hardly ever reboot the router. The last restart was due to a Fritz!OS update.

I notice it when I move between the "slow lane" and the "fast lane", but otherwise I get used to it. Bandwidth is unaffected.
Standard User jimbof
(newbie) Mon 08-Feb-21 11:48:35
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Re: Zen latency huge drop.


[re: AndrewNi] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by AndrewNi:
It happens maybe 3 or 4 times a month. Sometimes it is the line that drops, but I hardly ever reboot the router. The last restart was due to a Fritz!OS update.

I notice it when I move between the "slow lane" and the "fast lane", but otherwise I get used to it. Bandwidth is unaffected.

Thanks, I'm most worried about possible effects on VPN traffic as that is what I want the upload speed for (connecting to my office VPN which is on a fast link to London). I guess I'll cross that bridge if I get to it; as I didn't want to use a BT family provider (they all seem to want to pick up the telephone line which risks me losing my existing copper) Zen seemed to be one of the best other options.

I guess having the existing EE FTTC service line will give me a useful point of comparison.
Standard User Woolwich
(committed) Mon 08-Feb-21 12:34:05
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Re: Zen latency huge drop.


[re: jimbof] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by jimbof:
Thanks, I'm most worried about possible effects on VPN traffic as that is what I want the upload speed for (connecting to my office VPN which is on a fast link to London).


If you are planning on using a FritBox router beware they are limited when it comes to VPN throughput. I've had to resort to SFTP to get a decent connection to one remote location where I'd prefer VPN. The maximum upload I was getting of VPN was ~5 to 10Mbps.
Standard User prlzx
(experienced) Mon 08-Feb-21 13:43:59
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Re: Zen latency huge drop.


[re: Woolwich] [link to this post]
 
I suspect jimbof will be using a VPN client on their computer in which case throughput won't be affected.
As far as the router is concerned most VPN traffic will look like any other UDP traffic.

The VPN throughput of a router relates to when the router itself is the source or destination endpoint of a VPN,
in which case OpenVPN will be the slowest, IPsec (e.g. IKEv2) will be ok if the hardware can handle AES efficiently.



prlzx on Zen: FTTC (VDSL) at ~40Mbps / 10Mbps
with IP4/6 (no v6? - not true Internet)

Edited by prlzx (Mon 08-Feb-21 13:45:11)

Standard User jimbof
(newbie) Mon 08-Feb-21 14:01:13
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Re: Zen latency huge drop.


[re: Woolwich] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Woolwich:
If you are planning on using a FritBox router beware they are limited when it comes to VPN throughput. I've had to resort to SFTP to get a decent connection to one remote location where I'd prefer VPN. The maximum upload I was getting of VPN was ~5 to 10Mbps.

The office is my own, so I have a site-site VPN set up in my Ubiquiti hardware (the two sites are on separate subnets so it is all routed transparently over VPN). I've got a USG4Pro at home but only a USG3 in the office, that one will need upgrading as it isn't fast enough to saturate this link over VPN (assuming no other issues).

I did try and avoid Zen sending me the Fritz as it's just going to go into the attic with all the rest of the Telco routers, but they weren't having it, the guy on the phone said I'd have to use their router for troubleshooting (which I kind of get for a consumer service, though it does annoy me if I'm going to have to justify every issue ever with swapping to the Fritzbox... as it won't do most of what I need).

Edited by jimbof (Mon 08-Feb-21 14:02:02)

Standard User jimbof
(newbie) Mon 08-Feb-21 14:04:19
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Re: Zen latency huge drop.


[re: prlzx] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by prlzx:
The VPN throughput of a router relates to when the router itself is the source or destination endpoint of a VPN,
in which case OpenVPN will be the slowest, IPsec (e.g. IKEv2) will be ok if the hardware can handle AES efficiently.

Router performance is an issue for me as I will be doing site-site VPN, but not using the Fritz. One side of my Ubiquiti link will need upgrading as it's not up to the job.
Standard User Woolwich
(committed) Mon 08-Feb-21 14:12:27
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Re: Zen latency huge drop.


[re: jimbof] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by jimbof:
The office is my own, so I have a site-site VPN set up in my Ubiquiti hardware (the two sites are on separate subnets so it is all routed transparently over VPN). I've got a USG4Pro at home but only a USG3 in the office, that one will need upgrading as it isn't fast enough to saturate this link over VPN (assuming no other issues).


Yes, I also have site-to-site VPNs running but using the Fritz. I would add some Edgerouters (as recommended here) but I can't get to the other sites at the moment for obvious reasons. I'll have a look at the Ubiquity too, thanks.
I did try and avoid Zen sending me the Fritz as it's just going to go into the attic with all the rest of the Telco routers


I was already using FritzBoxes (although a better model than Zen send). When I upgraded or re-contracted or something I asked to have the 'free' router just so as I'd have it for troubleshooting. There's no way I'm going to reset my router to factory spec (even with the option of saving the config file). I don't expect you'll have enough issues with Zen to get annoyed!

Edit: I now see EdgeRouter is Ubiquity!

Edited by Woolwich (Mon 08-Feb-21 14:15:21)

Standard User jimbof
(learned) Mon 08-Feb-21 14:44:00
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Re: Zen latency huge drop.


[re: Woolwich] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Woolwich:
I was already using FritzBoxes (although a better model than Zen send). When I upgraded or re-contracted or something I asked to have the 'free' router just so as I'd have it for troubleshooting. There's no way I'm going to reset my router to factory spec (even with the option of saving the config file). I don't expect you'll have enough issues with Zen to get annoyed!

I'm hoping it will be plain sailing...
I ordered FTTP 900 on Thursday, and the OR guy was out today already doing a survey in the snow no less...! It's just arrived in the area and I think I'll be the first connected at this rate (though a small amount of digging might get in the way of that...)
In reply to a post by Woolwich:
Edit: I now see EdgeRouter is Ubiquity!

Yes, they're very similar under the hood, though the Unifi stuff has a controller device (either on the network or on the cloud) that manages all the boxes on the network and "provisions" them with settings from the GUI, instead of having to learn some router OS to do it. Depending on which way you look at it, this is either a neat setup, or an annoyance.

There was a time when I used to build custom Linux based routers and firewalls for fun and profit, but these days it's something I don't get so much fun out of - they're basically understood problems and I just want it done as easily as possible. The site-site VPN setup on the Unifi interface was all of about 5 mouse clicks...
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