Site displaying only CityFibre prices in BTW/CityFinre area

Have been a happy Zen customer since 2014 (ADSL then switched to BTW FTTP in Jan 2018)

Regularly keep an eye on the Zen site as only by doing this did I learn last year I could get 100 bps down and 18 up for the same price as I was paying for 76 Mbps down and 18 up.

So imagine my delight yesterday evening when I ran a check on my address to find I could on the face of it get 300 Mbps down and 47 up for cheaper than I'm currently paying (I currently pay £38.99 and the price came up at £32.99, who wouldn't snap up a bargain like that from a a company they've been happy to deal with and recommend for years.

Couldn't order through the portal so rang sales this morning.


Staff member was a delight to deal with as always and was going to go ahead with the order which would involve a £9.99 fee, I asked if this could be waived due to being a long term customer and the site indicating free activation, she agreed and put me on hold.

She came back and said she was unaware of the new pricing and was checking with her Manager, I said I had no issue with committing to a new contract a was very happy with Zen but the increased speed and reduced cost would be welcome.

She put me on hold again and then came back with the bad news, the price quoted was for service provision over Ctyfibre only and that the equivalent on BTW would be £49.99 a month.

Oh and if I wanted to proceed with CityFibre install that would be £49 too, I politely declined and thanked her for her time.

Am working from home still and don’t really want another fibre coming in and another ONT install.

Seriously, what’s going on Zen?

Hope something changes as might have to look at Andrews and Arnold when my contract is up in March.

In reply to a post by techguy:

Seriously, what’s going on Zen?

They have two suppliers they buy 'wholesale' from. One is cheaper. No different from any other shop or business.

You'd be quids in after a year. What's not to like.

If you're price sensitive why are A&A an option?

In reply to a post by Woolwich:

In reply to a post by techguy:

Seriously, what’s going on Zen?

They have two suppliers they buy 'wholesale' from. One is cheaper. No different from any other shop or business.

You'd be quids in after a year. What's not to like.

Because I'll have yet another ONT or have to have two appointments, one for CityFibre install and one for OpenReach to come and reclaim their ONT as while I maybe a technology enthusiast (the day job would be pretty tedious if I weren't) I don't want to live in a comms room/meet-me room

Besides, I'm choosing Zen as my supplier and have the infrastructure in place, why should I go through the hassle mentioned above just because iit's cheaper for them to use fibre provided by someone else?

Other providers using CityFibre offer symmetric FTTP, this is assymetrical as per the BT Wholesale Service.


IMy point of posting here is I believe this to be a bug on the site which does not mention at all CityFibre.

Edited by techguy (Fri 12-Nov-21 10:04:01)

In reply to a post by jpm:

If you're price sensitive why are A&A an option?

After getting a quote from them for 160/30 at £45 a month, they aren't

Openreach won’t reclaim their ONT. It simply stays with the premises even if it’s not being used actively. You don’t need to keep it powered on, but leave it connected to the fibre.

In reply to a post by techguy:

Other providers using CityFibre offer symmetric FTTP, this is assymetrical as per the BT Wholesale Service.

I'm pretty sure where Zen sells over CityFibre its symmetrical. There's clearly been a breakdown in communications somewhere. I'd be back on the dog to them to ask if they do have CityFibre in your street (but you'd know that, there will be a toby box outside) and if they do is it actually symmetric?

In reply to a post by techguy:

Because I'll have yet another ONT or have to have two appointments, one for CityFibre install and one for OpenReach to come and reclaim their ONT as while I maybe a technology enthusiast (the day job would be pretty tedious if I weren't) I don't want to live in a comms room/meet-me room

The OpenReach ONT remains linked to the property. It doesn't get returned or taken with an occupant when they move house.
It should stay on the wall unpowered when not in use. Think of it as a modern master socket. The newest ONT's are actually smaller than a master socket.

Besides, I'm choosing Zen as my supplier and have the infrastructure in place, why should I go through the hassle mentioned above just because iit's cheaper for them to use fibre provided by someone else?

I could understand the complaint if they were switching you from OpenReach to Cityfibre on the same speeds, terms and prices
You don't go through that hassle because it's cheaper for them though.
You go through that hassle because it's cheaper for you.

Other providers using CityFibre offer symmetric FTTP, this is assymetrical as per the BT Wholesale Service.

All Cityfibre is symmetrical, including Zen over Cityfibre.

Any provider not offering symmetrical on Cityfibre is manually rate limiting the upstream. I'm not aware of any asymmetrical providers on Cityfibre.

Post deleted by Davey_H

In reply to a post by techguy:

IMy point of posting here is I believe this to be a bug on the site which does not mention at all CityFibre.

Correct.

Yesterday (Thu), Zen added new Cityfibre cities to their coverage (eg Inverness) and in doing so, have slightly messed up their availability checker for Cityfibre areas. Basically all FTTP services - whether Openreach or Cityfibre based - are shown as assymetric (despite Cityfibre being symmetric) and the only way to tell whether a service is Openreach or Cityfibre based, is by the pricing shown.

For example in an Openreach FTTP only address this is what their checker churns out (correctly):

https://i.postimg.cc/gkHP5xLh/Zen-FTTP-Openreach.jpg

But for a Cityfibre enabled address

https://i.postimg.cc/gjcK2t4m/Zen-FTTP-Cityfibre.jpg

Worth pointing out that before Thursday, Zen were selling 900/900 on Cityfibre for £40/m and this has now been increased to £47.99/m. Another big giveaway is that Cityfibre based services can only be ordered via phone, whilst Openreach can be ordered online as well as over the phone.

Hope this makes things clearer.

If CityFibre no better than the ond Enta I'd avoid!

In reply to a post by professor973:

If CityFibre no better than the ond Enta I'd avoid!

Cityfibre only provide the fibre infrastructure from the property to the exchange or PoP, beyond that its the ISP's backhaul which is used.

I actually came close to taking out Zen's 900/900 service on Cityfibre last week for £40/m and free for 3 months as a trial customer in Inverness, but having read about Zen backhaul issues on these forums eg frequent outages, certain gateways congested causing Zen to kick off users every x weeks, I decided against it. I will probably wait for TalkTalk to release their 900/900 service on Cityfibre and for all their faults, TT operate a rock solid backhaul network.

Edited by Squid_Game (Fri 12-Nov-21 20:28:31)

In reply to a post by Squid_Game:

In reply to a post by techguy:

IMy point of posting here is I believe this to be a bug on the site which does not mention at all CityFibre.

Correct.

Yesterday (Thu), Zen added new Cityfibre cities to their coverage (eg Inverness) and in doing so, have slightly messed up their availability checker for Cityfibre areas. Basically all FTTP services - whether Openreach or Cityfibre based - are shown as assymetric (despite Cityfibre being symmetric) and the only way to tell whether a service is Openreach or Cityfibre based, is by the pricing shown.

For example in an Openreach FTTP only address this is what their checker churns out (correctly):

https://i.postimg.cc/gkHP5xLh/Zen-FTTP-Openreach.jpg

But for a Cityfibre enabled address

https://i.postimg.cc/gjcK2t4m/Zen-FTTP-Cityfibre.jpg

Worth pointing out that before Thursday, Zen were selling 900/900 on Cityfibre for £40/m and this has now been increased to £47.99/m. Another big giveaway is that Cityfibre based services can only be ordered via phone, whilst Openreach can be ordered online as well as over the phone.

Hope this makes things clearer.

Does this price increase apply to existing customers as well? I dont like it when I subsidise others because an ISP cannot treat everyone the same.

The whole FTTP thing on websites seems all too secretive.

Areas without FTTP dont get to see the prices on their website (I assume because they want to hide that DSL is worse value), and the problems you just reported with also cityfibre now only been able to be ordered over the phone now?

I just double checked.

Thursday was when cityfibre announced vodafone as anchor partner, I will speculate, that this gives vodafone preferential pricing which may explain the price increase?

Edited by Chrysalis (Mon 15-Nov-21 17:53:50)

I have pm'd the zen rep on this site to see if zen plan to keep selling cityfibre long term.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Openreach won’t reclaim their ONT. It simply stays with the premises even if it’s not being used actively. You don’t need to keep it powered on, but leave it connected to the fibre.

As I said in my opening post, while I maybe working from home and I am a technology enthusiast, it is my home so I don't really want to end up with redundant ONTs.

Anyway, thanks all, checked the site again and irrespective of if I click let me choose or help me choose it's now showing the same price so I've mailed sales again to see if anything has changed.

I did contact another ISP who can give me a bit more speed over the existing FTTP circuit for the same price I am paying so might have to consider moving which I don't really want to do as my aim is to save a bit while getting a bit more and service wose I've always found Zen to be superb,

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

All Cityfibre is symmetrical, including Zen over Cityfibre.

Any provider not offering symmetrical on Cityfibre is manually rate limiting the upstream. I'm not aware of any asymmetrical providers on Cityfibre.

Zen unfortunately don't seem to know this and are adamant they do not offer symmetric services, when I queried them about this making it clear I was in a Cityfibre area only (no BT FTTP) they told me:

"Our speeds are not symmetric on CityFibre."

I pointed out their own press releases said the packages were symmetric and they'd be the only ones not offering a Cityfibre symmetric package to which they replied:

"Our Speeds on CityFibre Network are not symmetric"

I did start to wonder if they were doing something to the upload but it seems they're just incorrect which combined with their evasiveness to give me any information on their pricing is off putting.

In reply to a post by techguy:

Seriously, what’s going on Zen?

"what's going on" is that one provider costs more than the other and is reflected in the retail cost.

In reply to a post by Johnmcl7:

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

Zen unfortunately don't seem to know this and are adamant they do not offer symmetric services, when I queried them about this making it clear I was in a Cityfibre area only (no BT FTTP) they told me:

Assuming the packages they offer are still the ones they mention on the press release:

https://www.zen.co.uk/blog/posts/zen-blog/2021/01/11...

A 9 second time to upload a 1GB file is about what it would take if you had a 900+ connection, so either they've changed packages and no longer do symmetric on new plans changed since Jan 2021, or someone is confused on that point.

Edited by therioman (Mon 06-Dec-21 15:25:01)

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

Any provider not offering symmetrical on Cityfibre is manually rate limiting the upstream. I'm not aware of any asymmetrical providers on Cityfibre.

That seems to have changed today. https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2021/12/isp-gi...

In reference to :

Customers can expect to pay from £49 per month for their top unlimited 930Mbps package with uploads of 100Mbps on an 18-month term, which rises to £69 per month if you want symmetric speeds.

Edited by Woolwich (Mon 06-Dec-21 21:16:19)

The post-article commentary from Mark Jackson over at ISPreview is correct - insofar as both CityFibre and Openreach run identical GPON tech - GPON is *not* a naturally symmetric platform, as the aggregate downstream bandwidth is twice the aggregate upstream bandwidth i.e 2.44 Gbps (down) / 1.22 Gbps (up) on the PON.

Where the approaches differ is that Openreach are far more cautious and conservative and typically offer up to a 9:1 downstream to upstream rate. In other words they deliberately undersubscribe the upstream by a factor of 4.5.

CityFibre philosophy on the other hand is to take the exact same GPON bandwidth and oversubscribe the upstream by a factor of 2.

CityFibre are betting that the vast majority of folks in reality will rarely (over the long term) fall out of the well established user bandwidth ratio of 10:1 down to up. Therefore in some ways it is a safe bet to oversubscribe the upstream in this way.

Fair to say that other smaller AltNets now typically choose to run an actually symmetric base PON network in the name of XGS-PON. But for now the three biggest broadband networks in the land are technically asymmetric even if one does (or did used to) offer pure symmetric ISP offerings over it.

In the events / festivals and business sectors if you offer a symmetric service you can still see 4/1 rising towards 3/1. Or even 2/1 if the someone is streaming out a live event to a remote audience (instead of or alongside an in-person audience), or if they have the need to run CCTV with remote operators monitoring of the live camera feeds and reviewing the NVRs.

Whereas I guess the push towards Internet in the home as a means of consuming media may have pushed towards more asymmetry of 10/1

However I would be disappointed if the VM "1000/50" becomes the norm because hey all that matters is the headline peak downstream is gig even if that is really shared with a bunch of other households and somehow. it's not really in the spirit of the Internet (even if that is idealistic).

People are very quick to jump on here and complain so I think it's only right I should give credit where it's due.

Got the statutory mail stating my contract is up in 70 days.

As I stated I'm really looking for a bit more upload.

After a discussion with a member of retentions today (won't mention the person's name here, Data Protection and all that but if there's a formal feedback process please let me know what it is as happy to give some good feedback) I'm pleased to say I managed to negotiate a very acceptable price for 300 down and 47 up on my existing OR FTTP circuit and have sgreed to a further 18 month contact.

Another reason I'm glad I've stayed with Zen over the years.

Edited by techguy (Fri 11-Feb-22 17:25:09)

Post deleted by Chrysalis

Edited by Chrysalis (Sun 13-Feb-22 07:29:21)

In reply to a post by Squid_Game:

In reply to a post by professor973:

If CityFibre no better than the ond Enta I'd avoid!

Cityfibre only provide the fibre infrastructure from the property to the exchange or PoP, beyond that its the ISP's backhaul which is used.

I actually came close to taking out Zen's 900/900 service on Cityfibre last week for £40/m and free for 3 months as a trial customer in Inverness, but having read about Zen backhaul issues on these forums eg frequent outages, certain gateways congested causing Zen to kick off users every x weeks, I decided against it. I will probably wait for TalkTalk to release their 900/900 service on Cityfibre and for all their faults, TT operate a rock solid backhaul network.

Don't assume forum posts are typical, I've not experienced any of those problems (on VDSL).

Also worth noting Zen did recently clarify their CityFibre package, it IS symmetrical but under the Ofcom rules they are following they can't advertise it as such as they can only advertise the "observed" average speed and there aren't enough people with the right equipment to do so.

Edited by alexatkin (Sun 06-Mar-22 21:46:41)

In reply to a post by alexatkin:

Don't assume forum posts are typical, I've not experienced any of those problems (on VDSL).

Also worth noting Zen did recently clarify their CityFibre package, it IS symmetrical but under the Ofcom rules they are following they can't advertise it as such as they can only advertise the "observed" average speed and there aren't enough people with the right equipment to do so.

According to the Ookla desktop speed test I'm getting 309.30 Mbps download and 937.81Mbps upload!
(Paying for 300Mbps)