Zen and OR/CF FTTP provider availability

Background: Long time Zen customer in Glasgow and happy with them; currently on a FTTC package. CityFibre dug up my street in November 2021 and went live with Vodafone soon after. This has now expanded to 5 providers: adding TalkTalk, Giganet, Brillband and Brawband. However, I'd rather stick with Zen for a CityFibre-based connection but this is not (yet) and option.

I've contacted both Zen and CityFibre a few times since the beginning of 2022 to try to ascertain if there's even a rough timescale for availability (a bit like this post in the forum), but the best answer I could get was from CF that: 'the contract for the area is with Zen and has been since January, so the ball is in their court'. I asked someone on the Zen sales team about this but that info was above their pay grade.

Recently, Openreach have done pole upgrades in the area and I can now get a FTTP connection with Zen- but it would be Openreach. I'd rather not go with OR as the connection is more expensive and is asymmetric.

I've tried to find an area where FTTP is available from Openreach and CityFibre to see if Zen lets you choose which to go with. My feeling is that since Zen can offer FTTP via OR now, they won't be in a hurry to make it available via CF.

I don't mind waiting a few more months if that's what it would take to get a symmetric FTTP package with Zen+CF; but if it's unlikely to happen, I would probably look at another provider. Does anyone know of an area served by both where you can choose between OR and CF for your connection with Zen? Or should I think about leaving Zen? Cheers!

Edited by bertieb2 (Thu 18-May-23 13:03:39)

Sorry I dont know any area you can try, just ranting as its good / bad to see I am not the only one feeling this frustration! Zen seem to have picked up the bad habits that larger ISP's have about communication with customers. I have mailed them multiple times not one reply, tried Facebook messenger they just say to email them or call, Call them they just say sign up on the web to be updated when they go live, I just want to know, if its next Month or next Year, I dont get why letting people know is such a pain point. If you have been waiting since 2022 I guess we have no hope.

Luckily Netomnia / Youfiber are just also "going live soon" (Both Netomnia and CityFibre have built on my street) so I think ill go with them and drop Zen

Getting a reply is no help either. I've been asking for about a year (CityFibre was installed here in March 2021). I was told then it should be available in September 2022, https://www.zen.co.uk/cityfibre/ claims late 2022, and a couple of months ago, Technical Support said April 2023 according to a report they'd recently read. Emailed again this week and was told they don't know.

The only useful info I've seen is on ISPreview's site in March 2022 and December 2022.

In reply to a post by bertieb2:

Does anyone know of an area served by both where you can choose between OR and CF for your connection with Zen?

A postcode recently appearing on the TBB map - not mine - G53 7NP in Glasgow South West. CityFibre say an address has service and show a list of ISPs including Zen. Following the Zen link allows you to order a CF service.

Meanwhile the Openreach website also says FTTP available (although I can't get Zen to offer both OR and CF.)

So, yes, the Halfway exchange area has both and Zen can provide via CF.

My understanding is that Zen only take the local services from CityFibre, that means they need a connection to each CityFibre exchange (FEX). Glasgow has multiple CityFibre exchanges.

It sounds like the footprint is available to Zen, but they've not got a connection to the CityFibre exchange you are connected to yet. Zen are the ones who should be able to confirm if/when that is planned.

Don't know what Zen's approach is on Openreach vs. CityFibre, some ISPs seem to let you pick others have a clear preference for one of them if both are available.

Be aware that Cityfibre ISP's dont have any migration policy to make the process fairly seamless like what Openreach network has, from experience on my second CF ISP change and its still a nightmare, I just cant get my current ISP to get cityfibre to cease my line, as this is currently the only way I can move, it has to be ceased and then go somewhere new, its been two weeks now and about six calls, and thats to chase it, not including the original requests. Do a google for CF migrations, there are stories of people moving into a new home and because the previous owner either didnt disconnect the CF line or their ISP have messed things up, they are stuck in limbo not being able to order a service, and cant talk to anyone about it, stories of weeks with no connection.

Also CF ISP's sell it cheap and as we have already seen, some are going out of business leaving customers with potential disconnections.

Im lucky I have both CF and Openreach FTTP in my area, and I take both for redundancy, but if I could only choose one I'd go Openreach based service all day long.
There is supposedly going to be a "One touch" process for all services regardless of network provider available soon, and TBH if you choose CF then by time you think about moving again it could be fine.

Edited by Rolandrat (Sat 20-May-23 09:14:56)

Which CF ISPs are "going out of business"?

In reply to a post by Woolwich:

Which CF ISPs are "going out of business"?

https://find-and-update.company-information.service....

Zybre/Airbroadband

https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2023/05/broadb...

In reply to a post by RichTea23:

Sorry I dont know any area you can try, just ranting as its good / bad to see I am not the only one feeling this frustration! Zen seem to have picked up the bad habits that larger ISP's have about communication with customers. I have mailed them multiple times not one reply, tried Facebook messenger they just say to email them or call, (snip)

In reply to a post by stevejm:

Getting a reply is no help either. I've been asking for about a year (CityFibre was installed here in March 2021). I was told then it should be available in September 2022 (snip)

I share your frustrations! As RichTea says, it's kinda both good and bad to know I am not the only one in this boat.

It's quite annoying as Zen have been great in other areas in my experience- for example, they were very responsive about IPv6 and put me on a rollout trial about 8 years ago, which was refreshing! A certain other ISP which shall not be named but which rhymes with Birgin's position was that they weren't doing IPv6 as it was "bad for customers"†.

And therein lies the rub: I'm not sure another ISP would be as good as Zen? Looking at my options on the TBB ISP list it seems that only Giganet is the only one with IPv6 support? The downside is, they seem to have stopped offering static IPv4s as standard (according to this FAQ),that makes me worry about CGNAT being imposed which would be a deal-breaker. There is also Brillband, but I don't know much about them other than this forum post.

†: I get that there are or were annoying failure modes with IPv6 and it'd cause support headaches for the poor first-liners but the response came off as gaslight-y

In reply to a post by Woolwich:

A postcode recently appearing on the TBB map - not mine - G53 7NP in Glasgow South West. CityFibre say an address has service and show a list of ISPs including Zen. Following the Zen link allows you to order a CF service. (snip)

Thanks! I found a postcode in Brum -- just via Google Maps, sounds like using an actual proper GIS info map might work better lol -- that seemed to have both CF and OR service, but I couldn't check the Zen+OR side there. If I can find it again I'll update here.

In reply to a post by Ad_G:

My understanding is that Zen only take the local services from CityFibre, that means they need a connection to each CityFibre exchange (FEX). Glasgow has multiple CityFibre exchanges.

It sounds like the footprint is available to Zen, but they've not got a connection to the CityFibre exchange you are connected to yet. Zen are the ones who should be able to confirm if/when that is planned. (snip)

That's a useful bit of info, thanks. I wonder if I might wheedle a bit more info from them, play up the "I'm thinking of leaving Zen for a CF provider, but a friend said their postcode in Glasgow has Zen available, any plans?" angle maybe! I don't need all their commercial secrets, I just need to know whether to look elsewhere.

In reply to a post by Rolandrat:

Be aware that Cityfibre ISP's dont have any migration policy to make the process fairly seamless like what Openreach network has, from experience on my second CF ISP change and its still a nightmare,

Also CF ISP's sell it cheap and as we have already seen, some are going out of business leaving customers with potential disconnections. (snips)

Ouch, that sounds frustrating! Hope they get it sorted soon so you can move. It is a bit concerning to hear, but hopefully it's just early teething problems and CF will sort things out over time. OFCOM complaints might sharpen their focus...

I was a bit surprised at the prices for comparable packages on CF to be honest- same down throughput, symmetric up and a tenner a month cheaper seems too good to be true? I figured CF were pricing things to get business established, but seeing ISPs like Zybre disappear (CF have an entire FAQ just for them!) is a bit concerning. Hopefully we're not going to end up in a situation like what happened with energy companies disappearing...

I'm on giganet and have a relatively static IPV4 address. Definitely not CGNAT as I run an inbound VPN to my home network. No issues in 7 months, probably tempting fate now!

Not the cheapest. 150/500 is £32 but 3 months free and 12 month contract equivalent to £24. I am looking to move to IDNET at £24 for same service if they won't drop price at contract renewal. IDNET already indicated that the line (CF) has to be 'ceased' before they can take it over. That's a concern but as already mentioned, might only occur once before one touch migrations are in place.

In reply to a post by wiggsc00:

I'm on giganet and have a relatively static IPV4 address. Definitely not CGNAT as I run an inbound VPN to my home network. No issues in 7 months, probably tempting fate now!

That's good to know! I also do inbound VPN and have a couple of other self-hosted services- most I could do with IPv6 but at least one or two I couldn't.

In reply to a post by wiggsc00:

Not the cheapest. 150/500 is £32 but 3 months free and 12 month contract equivalent to £24. (snip)

My current FTTC package with Zen is about twice the effective cost for half the download throughput and maybe a fifth or a tenth of the upload? This is part of the reason I am keen to move on to FTTP! >_<

In reply to a post by bertieb2:

That's a useful bit of info, thanks. I wonder if I might wheedle a bit more info from them, play up the "I'm thinking of leaving Zen for a CF provider, but a friend said their postcode in Glasgow has Zen available, any plans?" angle maybe! I don't need all their commercial secrets, I just need to know whether to look elsewhere.

I rang customer service and did the "I am thinking of leaving Zen" option, and asked about when my exchange would be enabled, explaining that it had gone live 18 months ago and, from speaking to CF on the phone, the contract for the area has been with Zen since January.

The CSR (whose name I didn't catch, d'oh) was helpful and said she would ask the relevant team and get back to me. She seemed on the ball, so even if I end up leaving Zen for eg Giganet it'll be with a heavy heart as they have been great. Even if it comes down to waiting a couple more months on a relatively expensive FTTC package I would, but I need a rough timescale at least!

I should hear back in a few days, will update here when I do.

Quick update- the sales person emailed me back to say there is indeed still exclusivity in my area! So what CityFibre told me previously seems to be wrong, somehow.

I've asked when the exclusivity period ends and will phone up CF to try to confirm what I'm being told.

In reply to a post by bertieb2:

there is indeed still exclusivity in my area! So what CityFibre told me previously seems to be wrong

Interesting if this is the case that's really bad from CF, the emails they have been sending me every few days and the snail mails I have gotten from them all list Zen and use the Zen logo in them. If they are actively preventing Zen from using them in some area's that's very sneaky indeed!

Thanks for following up on this, please keep us updated on what you find

As far as I am aware the exclusivity was for Vodafone and was part of the deal they signed for 12 cities back in 2017.

Glasgow was not one of those cities, Vodafone launched it at the end of 2021 when they took CityFibres national product. So I think Zen are giving out incorrect information. If any other ISP than Vodafone are available then there is no exclusivity clause.

Replies

In reply to a post by RichTea23:

Interesting if this is the case that's really bad from CF, the emails they have been sending me every few days and the snail mails I have gotten from them all list Zen and use the Zen logo in them. If they are actively preventing Zen from using them in some area's that's very sneaky indeed!

Thanks for following up on this, please keep us updated on what you find

Ha yeah that irked me a little too- annoying to see the logo and think "hey, Zen!", then find out actually no they're not available! I guess it's a standard mailing that they don't change to reflect local availability.

In reply to a post by Ad_G:

As far as I am aware the exclusivity was for Vodafone and was part of the deal they signed for 12 cities back in 2017.

Glasgow was not one of those cities, Vodafone launched it at the end of 2021 when they took CityFibres national product. So I think Zen are giving out incorrect information. If any other ISP than Vodafone are available then there is no exclusivity clause.

I am a bit confused by it myself to be honest! Vodafone were the first available here (late 2021) and I'd heard of the deal they did with CF so fair enough. Then other providers became available so I thought, "great, exclusivity period is over!", but Zen still said they couldn't do anything. So either they are mistaken(1) or there's some other commercial arrangement that the other providers (TalkTalk, Giganet etc) have signed up to that Zen haven't that they are calling 'exclusivity'.

Edit: the Zen CSR confirmed that CF service was available from December 2021; it's definitely more than 12 months for Vodafone exclusivity, and about the 18 month mark too!

It's still very odd that as Woolwich mentioned, the Halfway exchange / Glasgow SW has Zen+CF available but my area (NW) doesn't. So whatever 'exclusivity' there is or isn't, it doesn't apply to the whole city!

----

(1): Being generous, maybe that was what they were briefed to say initially and it hasn't been updated?

Edited by bertieb2 (Fri 02-Jun-23 11:36:20)

CityFibre mini-update

I rang CF this morning. Their IVR system directs any enquiries about ordering to use the website's contact form and then hangs up, so I went with "other → other".

The CSR:

- confirmed Zen wasn't available in my area
- said they weren't able to give timescales
- asked had I spoken to Zen about it (lol)

I tried to explain the back-and-forth that has been ongoing and what I had heard from both Zen and CF previously. I also said that the lack of info was making it difficult to choose between moving to another provider for CF or sticking with Zen for an Openreach FTTP connection.

She took my details and said she'd pass it to the relevant team to see if there was any more info, I'll hear back maybe early next week.

Edited by bertieb2 (Fri 02-Jun-23 11:36:48)

Late 2021 is when CityFibre launched national so that fits. Vodafone don’t have exclusivity on that, as is born out by other ISPs being available. Other ISPs will either be taking national or have a connection in your exchange.

To my knowledge Zen take local which means they need a connection to every CityFibre exchange. SW and NW Glasgow are on opposite sides of the Clyde so probably different CityFibre exchanges. My money is on Zen not having a connection to the NW exchange and their agent is wrong/has been fed the wrong info about exclusivity.

What you say makes sense.

Unfortunately it probably amounts to the same thing either way- a waiting game with an unknown end! If it's a commercial decision on when they take up the WSSCO exchange, Zen are unlikely to inform the peasants-- err, tell me that! Similarly, if it's some other nebulous semi-'exclusive' deal on CityFibre's end, they're also unlikely to reveal when that ends.

I'll wait and see what further, if anything, I hear from CF ± Zen and make a decision thereafter. I've been playing the "just one more month" for the past *cough* months, so waiting a little longer to choose between jumping to Giganet or Zen+OR won't kill me.

The calendar has advanced a couple of months but unfortunately the information has not. @RichTea23 mentioned in their thread that they had gotten some info about an interconnect, so if I can somehow cajole Zen into revealing their plans to me then fab, but I have my doubts.

As I mentioned in the other thread I'm at the point of ordering Giganet and seeing if I can get IPv6 connectivity there. It's not officially available according to the salesperson I spoke to, but some users of another forum have reported some qualified successes in getting connectivity. I won't link it here as I'm not sure of the ettiquette, but for me it's the top search result for "giganet ipv6" and it rhymes with 'eye ess pee miscue'.

I keep badgering Zen about CityFibre availability and either I get 'don't know' or they give me a fictitious date which never happens, the latest was 'late July'. To add insult to injury https://www.zen.co.uk/cityfibre/ still says installation to all homes across the CityFibre footprint by late 2022 despite my pointing this out to them a number of times. I wish Zen would be more open about their plans.

In reply to a post by bertieb2:

The calendar has advanced a couple of months but unfortunately the information has not. @RichTea23 mentioned in their thread that they had gotten some info about an interconnect, so if I can somehow cajole Zen into revealing their plans to me then fab, but I have my doubts.

As I mentioned in the other thread I'm at the point of ordering Giganet and seeing if I can get IPv6 connectivity there. It's not officially available according to the salesperson I spoke to, but some users of another forum have reported some qualified successes in getting connectivity. I won't link it here as I'm not sure of the ettiquette, but for me it's the top search result for "giganet ipv6" and it rhymes with 'eye ess pee miscue'.

Update here after some more calendar advancement for others in a similar boat.

I read somewhere back in August that the plans for Zen's CityFibre FEX (fibre exchange) were in the "2-3 month" range. I overcame my own inertia as I could see myself waiting that period and still being on FTTC with Zen -- 40-something quid a month for 70 Mbps -- due to further delays.

I hopped over to Giganet as they were the best of the rest- decent speed at a reasonable price. I do indeed have IPv6, and the supplied eero router is not bad; though it requires installing an app and handing over personal data just to manage (grump, grump). I had to request a static IP for an extra £3/mo to avoid CGNAT, however. I'll see if I get the promised '3 months free' from around May/June. Giganet's customer portal still says I have no orders with them, I asked support about it months ago and they said words to the effect that they were "developing a new system", shrug.

I double checked today and there are now 14 providers for my postcode:

- Vodafone
- Brawband
- TalkTalk
- No One (new)
- Octaplus (new)
- Giganet
- Gigabit Networks (new)
- Brillband
- Yayzi (new- speeds from 900mb up to 2.3Gb)
- Factco (new)
- Idnet (new)
- Fibrehop (new)
- A&A (new; the legends themselves!)
- Link (new)

And yet still no Zen!! Interestingly Yayzi seems to be offering some higher speeds, but in my area only 2Gb asymmetric (2 down, 1 up) is available, not the full 2.3 symmetric they advertise.

Even though I'm on a no-exit-fee 1 month contract I have no real desire to switch away from Giganet. If I did, I'd probably go with A&A, who I took up as a VOIP provider. My plan had been to switch back to Zen-on-CF as soon as that became available, but the longer time passes the less inclined I am to do so.

A&A are expensive. I moved from Giganet to Zen funnily enough, seamless switchover took about 10 minutes on Cityfibre fttp line.

Looking at your list, I would pick IDNET as a suitable ISP. and they're fairly competitive on price, I almost went with them instead of Zen.

In reply to a post by wiggsc00:

A&A are expensive. I moved from Giganet to Zen funnily enough, seamless switchover took about 10 minutes on Cityfibre fttp line.

Looking at your list, I would pick IDNET as a suitable ISP. and they're fairly competitive on price, I almost went with them instead of Zen.

Yup, you're right they are rather expensive, which is what has put me off them in the past. But they seem to be the only ISP to commit to actually being a techy ISP for techy people, like T1 helpdesk people who know how to diagnose problems rather than the usual script-reading stereotype- both have their place, but having the former is such a boon when it's needed (I imagine, judging by what people who have used their tech support have said).

Mini-rant but it seems now that it's cool to be geeky ISPs are rushing to brand themselves thus; then going, "okay here's your CGNAT 'internet' '''connection'''† and a black-box router you can't configure beyond maybe setting the SSID". And don't get me started on the shift to calling an internet connection "the Wifi"...

Back on-topic, cheers for the IDNET rec, they look similarly priced to Giganet except it looks like the static v4 is priced in. And they prominently mention IPv6 support which earns them brownie points in my book. Hopefully whatever caused you to move away from Giganet won't happen to me though... 😅

----------

†: if I was Benevolent Dictator For Life, ISPs who didn't support IPv6 and imposed CGNAT wouldn't be able to call their offering an 'internet connection' under truthful advertising guidelines!

In reply to a post by bertieb2:

Mini-rant but it seems now that it's cool to be geeky ISPs are rushing to brand themselves thus; then going, "okay here's your CGNAT 'internet' '''connection'''† and a black-box router you can't configure beyond maybe setting the SSID".

A part of the reason there's no IPV4 is providers used to be able to just keep asking for more and more. Many did just that.

Some providers have so many IPV4 addresses hoarded away that not only will they give you a free static IPV4, they will give you enough to put 1 on every device on your LAN, free.

Not discussing any provider in particular 😉

I'm accepting of the reality that is CGNAT on new entrants, but if you're building an ISP and you aren't IPv6 from day one then I will question your competence. I do agree that selling a product that is IPv4 CGNAT with no IPv6 is not an Internet connection, it's a web browsing service.

IPv6 has to be there if you are doing CGNAT, and there's no point doing it as a dynamic allocation either.

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

In reply to a post by bertieb2:

Mini-rant but it seems now that it's cool to be geeky ISPs are rushing to brand themselves thus; then going, "okay here's your CGNAT 'internet' '''connection'''† and a black-box router you can't configure beyond maybe setting the SSID".

A part of the reason there's no IPV4 is providers used to be able to just keep asking for more and more. Many did just that.

Which is surprising because humans are normally so good at collectively managing limited resources... /s I'm actually kinda surprised IANA and the regional RIRs didn't / haven't clawed some of the bigger blocks back. Looking at you, FoMoCo and Merc with your entire /8 blocks. Not that it would do much now, and even if things were 'perfectly' allocated there's fewer addresses than people, but it could have been done better.

In reply to a post by jpm:

I do agree that selling a product that is IPv4 CGNAT with no IPv6 is not an Internet connection, it's a web browsing service.

You're spot on in your description. I guess the other slightly sad reality is most are happy enough with a web browsing service, and only complain something is amiss if they try to use something that can't do double-NAT punchthrough. A network of peers, not so much!

In reply to a post by jpm:

I'm accepting of the reality that is CGNAT on new entrants, but if you're building an ISP and you aren't IPv6 from day one then I will question your competence.

A certain large combination phone/TV/cable internet provider who will remain nameless amongst the many such providers once answered a query of mine some years back -- after the IPv4 exhaustion date -- which asked if they had plans to roll our IPv6, with a "no, we have no plans to go with a new protocol as it isn't necessary". Suffice to say I went with another provider who did have IPv6 plans.

Edited by bertieb2 (Tue 30-Jan-24 13:41:43)

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

In reply to a post by bertieb2:

Mini-rant but it seems now that it's cool to be geeky ISPs are rushing to brand themselves thus; then going, "okay here's your CGNAT 'internet' '''connection'''† and a black-box router you can't configure beyond maybe setting the SSID".

A part of the reason there's no IPV4 is providers used to be able to just keep asking for more and more. Many did just that.

Some providers have so many IPV4 addresses hoarded away that not only will they give you a free static IPV4, they will give you enough to put 1 on every device on your LAN, free.

Not discussing any provider in particular 😉

Also have a look at all the places that still have /8 allocations in IPv4.

I once did some work involving JANet and the amount of wasted IP's was criminal. Universities with class B allocations and using those on an internal network...

Claw all these back and we wouldn't have an IPv4 problem (for a few more years anyway)