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I've been with Zen for internet and analogue phone for many years. I have a Truecall box (ie a physical box that my phone plugs into, not Truecall built into a phone or a base station). That box acts as an answer phone, interfaces with my Truecall spam database and is very simple to use requiring a single press of a physical button to hear recorded messages. Been fine for years.
A couple of months ago I moved to digital voice with Zen and they gave me a new Fritz!box 7530 to be able to use voip. My internal phone wiring is now plugged into the Fritz!box instead of the BT master socket and I can make and receive calls with no issues.
However, since moving to digital voice the answer phone in the Truecall box is no longer receiving the line disconnect signal when the calling number hangs up (first party disconnect). I understand that this should cause a number unobtainable tone to be sent that (previously) was detected by the Truecall box which ended the answer phone recording.
Now, if someone hangs up after leaving a message the answer phone continues to record a series of tones for several minutes after the message ends. If the caller doesn't leave a message but just hangs up then I still get several minutes worth of the tone recorded as a 'message' on the answer phone.
I've spoken to Zen who first of all said I should use the answer phone in the fritzbox, which I don't wish to do as I can't see the point of having an app on my mobile phone to listen to messages sent to my landline, nor of getting emails sent and me having to check my emails. I like pressing a single, physical button in my kitchen. Now they are saying it’s a fault with my Truecall box, which I doubt as it has worked fine until they changed me to digital voice.
This seems to be an issue with some BT phones with built in answer phones as well after moving to voip and the answer always seems to be the equipment in the exchange not sending the correct signals.
Has anyone else experienced a similar issue with Zen? Any ideas how to get this fixed or how to get Zen to even check the exchange?
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The analogue tones will only come from the Fritz!box now rather than the exchange, since the router has to generate the various tones locally for the analogue port in place of what would have come down on the voice pair.
The tones used for different states (dialling tone, engaged, unobtainable, call ended, call waiting, off-hook alert/timeout and such) are not universally the same worldwide, different countries have their own conventions.
It is likely any change would need to be made in the Fritz!box firmware - and I don't know if it has any internal settings relating to regional variations for the analogue port though.
prlzx on Zen: FTTC (VDSL) at ~40Mbps / 10Mbps
with IP4/6 (no v6? - not true Internet)
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I have a different setup - testing VOIP before moving my landline later
BT (no BT Digital voice) with a Grandstream HT801 ATA providing VOIP capability (A&A) and a BT Decor 2600 Truecall phone.
I call the VOIP number and let the answerphone kick in, I leave a message and terminate the call, I hear 3x busy tone before the 2600 ends the call. On playback, the recorded message has 1x busy tone at the end of the recording.
I will try to test using an analogue answer phone without Truecall tomorrow to see if it behaves the same. I know I could turn Truecall off on the 2600 but using a device without Truecall will tell me if Truecall is the issue or whether it is related to the answerphone functionality
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Just repeated with a Panasonic analogue answer phone / DECT setup
When the caller I terminated the incoming call I heard 6x busy tones on the base unit. Answer screening was set on. On playback the message had 3x busy tones at the end of the message.
Busy tone is beep, beep, beep, beep - around 3 beeps per second.
Looks like it is the answerphone capability and not Truecall which is causing the issue.
I am not aware that old technology (analogue) equipment needs to be 100% compatible with newer digital VOIP technology.
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All the tones and things are usually set in the ATA, and out of the box they might be configured for the USA region. For a Grandstream ATA the UK settings are http://web.archive.org/web/20221002044654/https://ww...
(link from the AAISP wiki)
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Hi jpm, yes, I have configured the ATA for UK settings.
After doing another test - called my VOIP number from my mobile with the ATA connected to a BT Viscount (we're going back some years now!) telephone. I answered and then ended the call on my mobile. The Viscount gave an engaged type tone after the call ended for around 60 seconds. After which it appeared to give a handset off hook tone (rapid beeping).
Looks like Truecall / Answerphone is not the issue.
Could it be a mismatch between mobile and VOIP? Perhaps I have setting wrong in the ATA? I will check later.
I think I noticed the same when I was testing my Dad's BT DV a few months ago, but cannot be sure.
It does look like "line disconnect" is not being processed correctly. Strange this hasn't been raised before. I will check my settings - although OP (bbuser150) has probably just used the standard Zen / 7530 settings.
Edited by BarkingMad (Thu 20-Jul-23 08:56:24)
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I'll go quiet for a while after this. I may have hijacked OP thread but just providing more info. Sorry
Just tried another combination - N300A / C530 on Sipgate. When mobile terminates the call, the C530 gives 3 busy beeps before returning to idle state.
Summary of my testing of calls from mobile to VOIP numbers with mobile terminating the call - what is heard at receiving phone:
- GS HT801ATA + Decor 2600 Truecall with A&A. 3x busy tone heard and 1x busy tone on the recording
- As above with Panasonic Answerphone/DECT. 6x busy tone heard and 3x busy tone on the recording
- As above with BT Viscount phone (basic phone). 60 seconds of busy tone before number off hook tone
- N300IP / C530 with Sipgate: 3x busy beeps before returning to idle.
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@bbuser150 Have you had your firmware updated on the Truecall box? Might be worth a go
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@ BarkingMad
I haven't made any particular changes to the Fritz!box settings, except to turn off the built in answerphone. My recordings are similar to yours, About 60s of slow beeps followed by a short burst of fast ones, maybe corresponding to recording to the engaged/ off hook tones.
Zen got back to me and said that the Truecall FAQs say it is not 'recommended' to use truecall with voip and washed their hands of the issue. The FAQs do indeed say that but don't say why. However the set up instructions say that it can be used with 'some' voip and to look on page 16 for details, but page 16 doesn't mention voip.
I don't know what truecall uses to detect first party disconnect in the UK. If its the number unobtainable tone or the engaged tone then it looks like it is still receiving it from the Fritz!box but is now recording it instead. However, if it was looking for a voltage drop on the line or something like that then it could be that the Fritz!box is not providing this.
I've contacted Trucall and await their reply
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Just to add my two pence worth. I have had a Fritz!box VOIP connection for over 5 years. I have never seen the need for anything other than the Fritz!box.
Nuisance calls are directed to a dedicated answering box. In my experience, they never leave a message.
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The first few contacts with Zen also seemed to want to solve the problem by using a different system altogether (the Fritz!box blocker and answerphone). However, simply not using the faulty system does not solve the technical problem in that system that moving to voip has caused and which is the subject of my post.
Either way, the Fritz!box provides nothing like the reporting capabilities of a dedicated Truecall box or the ability to get your phone number taken off spammers' lists automatically by responding to certain types of caller with a number unobtainable tone.
You don't say whether you use the answerphone section of the Fritz!box. Zen wanted me to use that instead of my existing answerphone but it is far more of a faff to use than simply listening to your messages with one press on a big flashing red button.
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//www.truecall.co.uk/category-s/128.htm#:~:text=It%20works%20best%20if%20you,use%20trueCall%20with%20VoIP%20adaptors.
Q. Which network providers does trueCall support?
A. trueCall will work on standard domestic telephone lines from all the main telephone providers.
It works best if you have the Caller ID service from your phone supplier (this is currently available free from most operators, but some may make a small monthly charge).
>>> We don't recommend that you use trueCall with VoIP adaptors.<<<
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Not really sure what you are saying.
I've already said that the FAQs make this statement but don't explain why nor what 'recommends' means. They don't say it can't be done, just that its not recommended.
Indeed, to quote the Truecall setup guide, page 5,
"trueCall will work with some Voice Over IP telephones. You can set this up in your Internet Control Panel. (see Internet Control Panel Guide page 10)"
On page 10 of the Internet control panel guide it says the Voice Over IP adaptor settings are under advanced settings and says - "Switch this ON if you are using a Voice Over IP adapter (often referred to as an ATA). It will allow you to get the caller’s number - these units send American format CLI messages. By default, it is OFF.
However , current version of the truecall Internet Control panel has no option for Voice Over IP adaptor in its settings.
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Hi @bbuser150
As you can see from my summary, I get the same "unclean" disconnect issue using different devices and VOIP providers
- GS HT801ATA + Decor 2600 Truecall with A&A. 3x busy tone heard and 1x busy tone on the recording
- As above with Panasonic Answerphone/DECT. 6x busy tone heard and 3x busy tone on the recording
- As above with BT Viscount phone (basic phone). 60 seconds of busy tone before number off hook tone
- N300IP / C530 with Sipgate: 3x busy beeps before returning to idle.
I am with BT, and use a separate device (Grandstream HT801 ATA) that connects to my BT Smart Hub2 and translates to/from analogue for the phones. My testing with just a basic phone (no answer machine, no truecall functionality) shows that when the caller terminates the call, the callee hears 60 seconds of "busy" tone before a handset off hook tone.
If you disconnect your Truecall box and just plug your phone into the 7530 - do you still get the same issue?
A&A don't like NAT and VOIP and they have traced one of my calls. They could see my local IP address in the SIP (VOIP) messages so they think the non clean disconnect is NAT related. I'm adjusting settings to see if I can work around this.
I get the same issue with my all digital N300 / C530 using SIPgate VOIP. Although it only last for 3 seconds and not 60. Again, NAT will be involved.
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I unplugged the Truecall completely and plugged my BT 4600 base station straight into the fritzbox. (Previously it went Fritzbox ->Truecall ->base station). Had Fritzbox answerphone off, base station answerphone on.
Got exactly the same result. 31 slow beeps and 16 fast beeps recorded after the message or just the beeps if no message was left.
Zen told me it was an issue with the Truecall but this indicates its an issue with the Fritzboz FON output.
I've got back to Zen and also contacted support at AVM, the Fritzbox manufacturers.
The manual for the Fritzbox clearly states that the FON output is an "RJ11 socket for connecting analog telephones, fax machines, answering machines or a door intercom system" so clearly something is wrong. It should be simply replicating the signals that would have come from the BT master socket (I know there are different country standards but this is sold for the UK market so should have UK signals turned on by default)
Does anyone know definitively what signal is sent by the exchange on first party disconnect? Some have said it's the number unobtainable tone (a continuous tone) and others that it is a voltage drop on the line but what I am recording after the first party hangs up seems to be the engaged tone (slow beeps) followed by the pay tone (fast beeps. You can hear the tones here https://telephonesuk.org.uk/sounds/
(Threads where different opinions on FPD signal are https://community.bt.com/t5/Archive-Staging/BT-Advan... which says its a voltage drop and https://community.bt.com/t5/Archive-Staging/Problem-... which says its number unobtainable)
Ah! .... This thread seems to point to the root cause https://business.forums.bt.com/t5/Archive/Line-disco... It says that its due to the loop disconnect timer (in the exchange?). Once this had been set to 800ms the issue went away. Now just got to convince Zen to investigate that.
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Hi bbuser150,
So, we’re seeing roughly the same issue.
I think your references to “exchange” are a little incorrect. In the old days, your telephone was connected to the exchange by the copper wire. Now, you have moved to digital voice, and thus the exchange isn’t really involved any more. The voice signal is sent via data, and if anything the 7530 is acting like an exchange. I believe the messages use the SIP protocol.
My VOIP provider A&A says that NAT may be the problem. I haven’t got a 7530 and need an additional device (Grandstream Analogue Telephone Adapter [ATA]) that is between my router and telephone. In network terms, my router has an external Ip address, say, made up, 87.87.87.87 and my ATA has a local ip address say, 192.168.1.134. When someone calls the VOIP number, A&A send a message to 87.87.87.87 and that reaches the ATA at 192.168.1.134. Sometimes, with NAT, the 192.168.1.134 ip address is sent back to A&A. If this happens and A&A reply with a message for destination 192.168.1.134 it will not reach the ATA because it is my local address. This may cause issues. It is explained here https://support.aa.net.uk/VoIP_NAT
When I get sometime, I intend to use a program to intercept the SIP messages to see if I can see a local address in the messages.
Your situation is a little different. The 7530 has an integrated FON/FXS port so I am not sure whether the NAT scenario applies.
I am not an expert but I think what I have written is reasonably correct. Others are invited to correct me, please.
This thread is quiet so I am guessing our issue is not common and/or well known.
I have a router with integrated FON/FXS on order so I can experiment.
It could be that analogue to digital conversion isn’t 100% implemented. Many people use digital handsets when moving to DV/VOIP. I have some digital handsets with a digital base unit (N300 from Gigaset). I see the same issues with this equipment. The N300 will have a local ip address so it maybe NAT related.
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Does anyone know definitively what signal is sent by the exchange on first party disconnect? Some have said it's the number unobtainable tone (a continuous tone) and others that it is a voltage drop on the line but what I am recording after the first party hangs up seems to be the engaged tone (slow beeps) followed by the pay tone (fast beeps).
Detailed in SIN351, which appears to be missing on the Openreach site but available from the Internet Archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130617003810/http://ww... - see sections 7.1.1 and 7.2
Tones are detailed in SIN350 https://www.openreach.co.uk/cpportal/content/dam/cpp... - Number Unobtainable is a continuous 400Hz tone.
The K-break is the most reliable method but the Fritz!Box would have to generate it AND the answering machine / Truecall detect it.
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I've had Wireshark running and performed various inbound calls. All looks OK to my non expert eye.
--> from A&A
<-- from Grandstream
--> Request: INVITE
<-- Status: 100: Trying
<-- Status: 100: Ringing
<-- Status: 200: OK (INVITE)
--> Request: ACK
Call proceeds, and then caller (A&A) disconnects, but the Grandstream remains off hook
--> Request: BYE
<-- Status: 200 OK (BYE)
Then hear these tones https://www.youtube.com/shorts/bjUe4wKgNoY , and finally replace the handset on the Grandstream
<-- Request: REGISTER
--> Status: 401 Unauth
This scenario occurs when the Grandstream is powered on.
This appears to be correct according to RFC3665
<-- Request: REGISTER
--> Status: 200 OK (REGISTER)
@bbuser150 mentioned a "loop disconnect" timer. I searched my Grandstream settings and found in the FXS port section an option "loop current disconnect" which was disabled. The option (according to the manual) "initiates short voltage drop on the line when the remote (VoIP) side disconnects an active call"
I set it to enabled, applied changes and now, when Party A (the caller) hangs up, I get the dialtone.
I think the tones I have heard are the busy/reorder tone (whatever recorder tone is!) and not the the other tone as I reported.
I wonder if the 7530 has a setting in the FON/FXS port that allows loop current disconnect to be enabled.
Edited by BarkingMad (Mon 24-Jul-23 19:30:42)
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Are you getting similar events if you test with a soft phone client to your VoIP providers?
These days should be pretty seamless unless there is a firmware gremlin. I’ve run over NAT, mobile networks with CGNAT and all sorts for years without issue. NAT in and of itself shouldn’t be an issue with VoIP.
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Hi @Pheasant,
When using Acrobits Groundwire there is no issue. Party A ends the call and Party B hears nothing.
When using N300 with Sipgate or AA to receive the call, when party A ends the call I hear the same tones as shown in the links. I answer the call and put on speaker before disconnecting.
Sipgate N300
https://youtube.com/shorts/Sk-sf9LXduc?feature=share
AA N300
https://youtube.com/shorts/nNUlPnyMaPs?feature=share
3 beeps - like a busy tone. Perhaps this is normal. Three beeps is not an issue to me because I'm just testing/trying to help bbuser150. However, if I had 1 minute of beeps as per my first recording left on my analogue answerphone it would be annoying.
The HT801 and N300 firmware is upto date.
In another post, I've disclosed BT is providing DV over FTTC in the next 30 days. I'll see if I have the same issues when my main number moves to DV.
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I think the 3 beeps are completely normal and most likely a function of the various ATA and N300 firmware implementation of loop disconnect timer as you've noted.
My N300A is packed away, so cant quickly replicate, but I'd expect it the same.
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An app/softphone is different to an ATA - the call being cleared will cause the app to hang up, with an ATA the attached device has to manually do so hence the need for tones or other signal.
On Sipura/Linksys/Cisco ATAs in the description of the Call Progress Tones is:
Reorder Tone: This is played when an outbound call has failed, or after the far end hangs up during an established call.
The default is 480@-19,620@-19;10(.25/.25/1+2) = 480Hz+620Hz 0.25sec on / 0.25 sec off for 10 sec. The UK setting is 400@-20;10(*/0/1) = 400Hz continuous for 10 sec.
If the Grandstream also uses reorder when the call is cleared you could reconfigure its setting similarly, although I believe the tone syntax is slightly different. I don't recall any options to change tones on the Fritz!Box but it is a while since I last used one.
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Thanks @Pheasant and @tdw42,
I have a working solution using my GS ATA, N300 and Acrobit solutions.
When DV arrives in 30 days (if I believe the email), I'll have a similar setup as to the OP - that is ISP supplied router providing DV port.
It looks like Zen provide SIP settings https://www.zen.co.uk/help-support/general-sip-settings which is different from BT.
Perhaps the OP can get an ATA, plug into the 7530 and connect the phone/Truecall to the ATA.
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Now, if someone hangs up after leaving a message the answer phone continues to record a series of tones for several minutes after the message ends. If the caller doesn't leave a message but just hangs up then I still get several minutes worth of the tone recorded as a 'message' on the answer phone.
This seems to be an issue with some BT phones with built in answer phones as well after moving to voip and the answer always seems to be the equipment in the exchange not sending the correct signals.
We have just been switched over to Zen’s Digital voice today.
We have a BT TrueCall answerphone
BT Advanced Cordless Home Phone with 100 Percent Nuisance Call Blocking and Answering Machine, Twin Handset Pack https://amzn.eu/d/dVfeawz
This allows unknown callers to be announced, so we can decide whether to take the call or not.
We seem to have the same issue with the answerphone message continuing with a series of annoying beeps at the end of the message.
Anyone come up with a non technical fix yet?
If not, does The Fritzbox answer machine screen/announce calls or just block unwanted ones?
TIA from a frustrated Zen Digital Voice user.
iMac (Retina 4K, 21.5-inch, Late 2015) 3.3 GHz Intel Core i7 16GB Ram 2TB Fusion drive
iPad Air (4th gen) 64GB
iPhone 11 128GB
Zen Unlimited Fibre 2 80/20
AVM FRITZ!Box 7530
AOL=>Freeserve=>Zen=>O2=>BT FTTC=>Zen FTTC
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I helped bbuser150 to investigate the issue. bbuser150 confirmed it wasn't anything related to the Truecall phone because just using a bog standard wired phone on the 7530 gave the same issue. When party A (the caller) hangs up, tones are heard for 30 seconds. It doesn't disconnect correctly.
I don't have a 7530 and my VOIP is provided by a Grandstream HT801 ATA (Analogue Telephone Adapter). I had the same issue but with a different provider and digital to analogue conversion device. I traced the SIP messages and everything appeared to be fine but there was some issue around disconnection. I was having problems with disconnect. bbuser150 mentioned "loop disconnect", I found a setting in the ATA that made the problem go away.
The only work around I know of:
Comfirm Zen will provide access to your SIP settings. https://www.zen.co.uk/help-support/general-sip-settings
Plug the HT801 into an ethernet port on your 7530 and purchase a https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B000Q4X9PS/ref=pe_270633... to connect the ATA to your phone
Purchase an HT801 or similar ATA and configure it as https://web.archive.org/web/20221002044654/https://w... Note: I didn't change the dial plan, and besides adding my VOIP/SIP account the only other change was to enable "loop current disconnect".
There may be more stories emerging as more people adopt VOIP/DV.
I don't know if there are any settings on the 7530 in relation to "loop disconnect" and/or if Zen fixed the issue.
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We have a BT TrueCall answerphone
BT Advanced Cordless Home Phone with 100 Percent Nuisance Call Blocking and Answering Machine, Twin Handset Pack https://amzn.eu/d/dVfeawz
This allows unknown callers to be announced, so we can decide whether to take the call or not.
We seem to have the same issue with the answerphone message continuing with a series of annoying beeps at the end of the message.
Anyone come up with a non technical fix yet?
There isn't a non-technical one because the Fritzbox is not generating the signalling which BT landlines do, and the answering machine requires these to detect the calling party hangup.
The best solution would be for AVM who make the Fritzbox to follow the BT landline characteristics when the router is confiured for UK use. These are detailed in https://web.archive.org/web/20130617003810/http://ww... - specifically section 7.
Ideally Zen would be pushing AVM to implement this rather than just suggesting using the internal answering machine which does not have the same functionality. If enough people request it to both Zen and AVM it may get implemented.
If not, does The Fritzbox answer machine screen/announce calls or just block unwanted ones?
I don't think it has a call screening facility - it can answer all calls or anonymous calls, either all the time or by schedule, and I believe whitelisting numbers in the internal phonebook to bypass the answering machine is a recent addition or in the works.
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@ astanden
The other users here seemed to have narrowed down the issue to the Fritz!box not sending the k-break (end of call, plus various other names.) on first party disconnect eg it is not dropping the line voltage to 0 / reducing the line current to less than 1mA / increasing line resistance to several Mohm for the required 100 ms needed by the answerphone when the caller hangs up. (Different sources says this signal is different things but they all look similar to almost an open circuit for at least 100 ms.
I spoke to Trucall and they confirm that their answerphone requires a 0v line for 100ms in order to detect a first party disconnect and stop the recording. In other words there should only be 100ms of silence recorded at the end of each message.
I am trying to source a data logger that I can put on the line to see if the Fritz!box is generating this.My oscilloscope is not a recording one so I doubt that I would be able to detect such a short signal
Truecall also gave me the contact details for their development engineer and on their request I put them in touch with AVM, the Fritz!box manufacture, who told me they are themselves keen to find out what is wrong. TC said they have had many Zen customers with the same problem and also BT customers but that their Virgin customers do not have the issue. That points to the router supplied by each ISP as I belive Virgin use BT exchange equipment so the only difference is the router.
Zen support now seem to have given up and haven't replied to my last support ticket update. Maybe as I was a bit angry and asked then not to have a different person reply to each update and to take my comments and data seriously instead of offering silly suggestions without reading the actual facts in my comment. - The last advice was that when somebody calls I should wait 30s after they hang up before replacing my receiver! They obviously hadn't even noticed that the issue was with an answerphone not a voice call and also thought I had the time to wait 30s after every phone call to do something that their router should have done in 100 ms.
I suggest that you raise a support ticket with Zen and tell them that another customer has exactly the same issue. Tell then that you know it is their router and not anything else they might suggest. Maybe even point them to this forum.
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Thank you and the others who have responded.
I have sent Zen a message to their Technical support team highlighting the issue and gave a link to this discussion.
Hopefully a fix can be forthcoming with some corroboration between AVM and Zen, but don’t know how likely it will be.
Thanks again for everyone’s time with this issue.
iMac (Retina 4K, 21.5-inch, Late 2015) 3.3 GHz Intel Core i7 16GB Ram 2TB Fusion drive
iPad Air (4th gen) 64GB
iPhone 11 128GB
Zen Unlimited Fibre 2 80/20
AVM FRITZ!Box 7530
AOL=>Freeserve=>Zen=>O2=>BT FTTC=>Zen FTTC
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I've worked alongside a service desk in a previous job as network tech.
There is supposed to be a function in IT Service Management, to look for related tickets with a common cause, and to create a problem task collating the relevant information and attaching tickets to the problem, so that they are not treated as new or individual subscriber issues.
Teams such as ourselves were also supposed to spot if multiple similar faults were being assigned relating to a particular service or location for example.
Service desk would on occasion wander over to ask if there was a known issue that could explain a set of similar tickets.
I'm not sure if this is happening at Zen, but a Service Desk Manager or equivalent is meant to stay on top of that.
prlzx on Zen: FTTC (VDSL) at ~40Mbps / 10Mbps
with IP4/6 (no v6? - not true Internet)
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@prlzx
Yes, it's a shame really.
I've been with Zen for years and in the past their support has been faultless and the main reason I stayed with them. I had line drop outs a while back. One phone call and I spoke to someone at Zen who immediately took ownership of the problem and kept emailing / phoning to check on progress and suggest ideas. In the end that same person arranged for Openreach to completely re-wire my connection from the pole in the street right through to my master socket in the house and also to replace the equipment at the exchange. - Problem fixed at no cost to me.
Now they ignore any suggestion that other Zen customers have the same issue and don't seem to see a pattern.
This latest ticket to them with what appears to be a simple issue with their router has a different person replying each time, none of whom seem to actually read what I tell them and all of whom treat me like a complete idiot.
(My PhD in AI plus 30 odd years lecturing in software engineering after many years working in electronics and telecoms would tend to differ with their assumptions regarding my understanding of the issue!)
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@ astanden
Keep us in the loop re what happens and what Zen's response is.
I wonder if Zen will join the dots and start to see there really is something wrong and it's not just the customer being stupid or the way they should expect VOIP to work.
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I have also contacted AVM so will see what they say about it 🤷🏼♂️
Also, just to clarify, is the issue that:
TrueCall answerphones will not work with Digital Voice (VOIP) at all, or just won’t work with the AVM supplied 7530 router?
Or that any third party answerphones will not work with Digital Voice?
If it’s just the AVM router that is the issue, will the TrueCall answerphone work with a third party router?
iMac (Retina 4K, 21.5-inch, Late 2015) 3.3 GHz Intel Core i7 16GB Ram 2TB Fusion drive
iPad Air (4th gen) 64GB
iPhone 11 128GB
Zen Unlimited Fibre 2 80/20
AVM FRITZ!Box 7530
AOL=>Freeserve=>Zen=>O2=>BT FTTC=>Zen FTTC
Edited by astanden (Mon 07-Aug-23 10:42:42)
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Had a video call with my parents at the weekend. They are on BT FTTP with the SmartHub2 and DV. DV comes from the FON socket on the hub and connects to a BT phone with Truecall embedded.
Whilst on the call, I called the landline. I'm a known contact in the Truecall system. It rang, he answered and put the conversation on speaker. Whoops the feedback! I terminated the call and he was disconnected at the same time.
I've just called by suppressed my number. I got the "Callers to this number are being screened.."
Looks like it is working from a line disconnect and known/unknown caller.
EDIT: Some additional points.
BT offer a digital answerphone with their DV. We had to ensure "the number of rings before answer" on BT DV answerphone was greater than the Truecall answerphone. This means Truecall should always answer. I couldn't see an option to turn the BT DV answerphone off.
BT also offers "Call Protect". A watered down version of Truecall. It allows certain types of calls e.g. withheld, international, unrecognised to be "dumped" to BTs call protect voicemail. Also the calling number is screened against BTs blacklist of numbers but the subscriber can also add other numbers to the blacklist. We set it to allow everything through and will let the Truecall system screen the calls. There doesn't seem to be an option to turn Call Protect off.
Edited by BarkingMad (Mon 07-Aug-23 11:58:59)
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Sounds promising, thanks for the info.
If only BT promised no price increases if staying on the same package 🤷🏼♂️
We left BT for Zen because of the in contract price rises and the even bigger increase when we tried to renew.
iMac (Retina 4K, 21.5-inch, Late 2015) 3.3 GHz Intel Core i7 16GB Ram 2TB Fusion drive
iPad Air (4th gen) 64GB
iPhone 11 128GB
Zen Unlimited Fibre 2 80/20
AVM FRITZ!Box 7530
AOL=>Freeserve=>Zen=>O2=>BT FTTC=>Zen FTTC
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Have just has this response from AVM:
Thank you very much for your enquiry and for contacting the AVM Support.
You are having a problem with your FRITZ!Box 7530 in combination with a BT TrueCall answerphone.
I have already discussed this scenario before which we have received from other customers with our experts who have told me that FRITZ!OS does not support the features used by Truecall.
Hence, as we always focus on our customer's needs and wishes, I have taken the opportunity and have forwarded your enquiry as an enhancement request to the product manager in charge, for consideration when further developing the FRITZ!OS.
By the way, the answering machine of the FRITZ!Box offers nearly the same features as your Truecall device. Perhaps it can be used as an alternative solution. Our knowledge base guide below describes the configuration options of the built-in answering machine and how to set things up:
https://en.avm.de/service/knowledge-base/dok/FRITZ-B...
iMac (Retina 4K, 21.5-inch, Late 2015) 3.3 GHz Intel Core i7 16GB Ram 2TB Fusion drive
iPad Air (4th gen) 64GB
iPhone 11 128GB
Zen Unlimited Fibre 2 80/20
AVM FRITZ!Box 7530
AOL=>Freeserve=>Zen=>O2=>BT FTTC=>Zen FTTC
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I also had a similar response from AVM after I sent them full details of what gets recorded including a 3 minute MP3 file.
....................................................
Thank you for your patience.
I was informed that FRITZ!OS doesn't support the features which Truecall uses. For that reason, I forwarded your inquiry as an enhancement request to our product management.
However, the answering machine of the FRITZ!Box offers nearly the same features you're already using with your Truecall device. Perhaps this is an alternative solution. We describe the configuration options of the answering machine of the FRITZ!Box under the following link:
Setting up and using the FRITZ!Box answering machine
I am sorry that I cannot provide you with a direct solution that will continue to allow you to use your Truecall device smoothly.
However, I assume that a similar result can be achieved with our answering machine and wish you good luck with the setup.
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I have also contacted AVM so will see what they say about it 🤷🏼♂️
Also, just to clarify, is the issue that:
TrueCall answerphones will not work with Digital Voice (VOIP) at all, or just won’t work with the AVM supplied 7530 router?
Or that any third party answerphones will not work with Digital Voice?
If it’s just the AVM router that is the issue, will the TrueCall answerphone work with a third party router?
It depends if the TrueCall requires something a bit different to know when the far end has hung up. I run a Cisco ATA191 on A&A and it's plugged into a Panasonic DECT base, when I hang up a call on the far end, the cordless handsets know that the call has ended and go through their own end of call routine - they don't just play dial tone down the earpiece until they are put back into their charging base.
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Thanks for posting this, I don't have an answer but I've been a Truecall box user, forever and I receive ZERO spam calls or scammer calls to my phone, it's excellent I have no idea why BT or whoever allowed these calls on their network.
BUT, I'm not currently going to move to Digital Voice ([censored]), if I've got to deal with scam or spam calls again, and then have to purchase an additional service to screen them etc
So for me, the whole Digital Voice thing is in a mess, and it's unlikely that PSTN will end in 2025, or whatever BT or OFCOM want!
Also have an issue with own router as well, so that's another issue needs to be considered as well.
Maybe Truecal will need to update their box, because otherwise their service and business is going to end if completely reliant upon PSTN.
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Truecall told me they now have a firmware update, which makes it VOIP compatible, but my Truecall box is 15 years old WOW, didn't think I'd had it that long!
Anyway I'm going to wait.
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Plug the HT801 into an ethernet port on your 7530 and purchase a https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B000Q4X9PS/ref=pe_270633... to connect the ATA to your phone
Purchase an HT801 or similar ATA and configure it as https://web.archive.org/web/20221002044654/https://w... Note: I didn't change the dial plan, and besides adding my VOIP/SIP account the only other change was to enable "loop current disconnect".
@BarkingMad thank you for your insights. I had Zen DV installed yesterday, and unfortunately I encountered the same problem. So it seems that AVM has not changed the line hang up sequence in their box. If I understand correctly, your solution was to ditch the Fritz box, and use a Grandstream HT801 instead. Just before I fork over the money for one of those, can you please confirm that HT801 did indeed solve it for you?
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Has anyone actually managed to connect a normal UK telephone/answering machine to the Fritz!Box and get it to work with Zen's Digital Voice?
if yes, any recommendations for make/model?
iMac (Retina 4K, 21.5-inch, Late 2015) 3.3 GHz Intel Core i7 16GB Ram 2TB Fusion drive
iPad Air (4th gen) 64GB
iPhone 11 128GB
Zen Unlimited Fibre 2 80/20
AVM FRITZ!Box 7530
AOL=>Freeserve=>Zen=>O2=>BT FTTC=>Zen FTTC
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Has anyone actually managed to connect a normal UK telephone/answering machine to the Fritz!Box and get it to work with Zen's Digital Voice?
if yes, any recommendations for make/model?
How do you intend to connect the phone? Directly (using the adapter) or via DECT?
CJT.
Currently on TalkTalk Fibre 150
Previously on NOW TV Broadband up to 38 Mbps, then BT Broadband up to 80Mbps, then Pluse8 Broadband up to 80 Mbps, then Hyperoptic 100Mbps.
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Either I suppose, if I'm going to have to buy a new phone/answerphone. Is one more expensive than the other?
iMac (Retina 4K, 21.5-inch, Late 2015) 3.3 GHz Intel Core i7 16GB Ram 2TB Fusion drive
iPad Air (4th gen) 64GB
iPhone 11 128GB
Zen Unlimited Fibre 2 80/20
AVM FRITZ!Box 7530
AOL=>Freeserve=>Zen=>O2=>BT FTTC=>Zen FTTC
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It was more to ascertain your options.
I don't have the Zen service, but I am thinking of moving to them and taking the Digital Voice option as well (well my Mum is).
To my knowledge you can connect most phones direct to the router via a supplied adaptor, so if you have a phone already and you are happy to connect it that way you should be fine.
I am sure someone with DV will be able to more accurately answer you question.
CJT.
Currently on TalkTalk Fibre 150
Previously on NOW TV Broadband up to 38 Mbps, then BT Broadband up to 80Mbps, then Pluse8 Broadband up to 80 Mbps, then Hyperoptic 100Mbps.
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The issue isn’t the phone itself, it’s the answerphone.
There is a problem with the way the AVM Fritz!Box works with the UK phone system as it’s doesn’t recognise when the caller has hung up and with the TrueCall screening.
Read the thread form the beginning for more info.
iMac (Retina 4K, 21.5-inch, Late 2015) 3.3 GHz Intel Core i7 16GB Ram 2TB Fusion drive
iPad Air (4th gen) 64GB
iPhone 11 128GB
Zen Unlimited Fibre 2 80/20
AVM FRITZ!Box 7530
AOL=>Freeserve=>Zen=>O2=>BT FTTC=>Zen FTTC
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Do you have an analogue phone that you can use to listen to the line on? What tone is the Fritzbox generating when the far end hangs up?
You need it to be generating a disconnect tone which is the engaged tone (400Hz). If it's just going silent then the equipment has no idea the call has ended.
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I put a data logger on the output of the Fritzbox to see what I was getting when the caller hung up.
(a) first, 30 seconds of a 425Hz tone with a cadence of 0.5s on 0.5s off
(b) followed by 90 seconds of a 400Hz tone with a cadence of 0.375s on 0.375s off (this is the UK busy tone)
I sent the digital file to Truecall who got their engineer to look at it. They said they were aware of the issue but don't have a perfect solution for it
They said that while most networks send a K-Break signal (a drop in the loop current for around 100ms) when the calling party hangs up, this is an optional signal and in the UK some Virgin Media lines don't send it, nor do some routers.
TrueCall, along with many other answerphones, looks for this current drop and terminates the call recording if it sees it, however if the signal isn't sent then it can't detect the end of the call
Alternatively TrueCall's answering machine routine has a six second silence timer - if the caller is silent for 6 seconds then the message recording is terminated. Since many networks play silence when the calling party hangs up this could allow message recording to be terminated correctly.
I've bought a LM567CN tone detector chip and when I have time I intend building a simple circuit to detect a 425 Hz tone continuing for 0.5 s and use that detection to drop the line voltage for 100ms. I suggested that if I get it working then I'll licence it to Truecall!
Edited by bbuser150 (Fri 26-Apr-24 14:16:00)
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It seems like it shouldn't be difficult for AVM to update the Fritzbox so that when the region of the phone line is set to the UK it drops the line briefly, but it's just a case of the request getting to the right people.
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I agree.
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