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I’ve browsed the thinkbroadband site and forums for years as a source of information, but this is my first post seeking comments and advice. I’m afraid the narrative is a bit lengthy.
We live in an area where full fibre FTTP is not yet available, and alternative fibre/cable providers are not operating. So all broadband providers apparently depend on the local OpenReach network and infrastructure.
We have been Plusnet customers for almost 20 years, for broadband and in recent years also our landline phone. Our latest contract with them ended on 23 December. With the prospect of cessation of all landline phone service within the next year or so, we concluded it was time to look at our options – both for broadband and phone.
For broadband, part-fibre (FTTC) was on offer from various providers including Plusnet. But Plusnet warned us that an FTTC contract would mean loss of the landline phone – and they do not offer a digital voice (VOIP) service. We wished to retain our landline number and ideally, arrange a contract which included FTTC broadband and a digital voice service with our existing phone number.
BT Openreach can provide both services, as do others. Many providers offer fixed term contracts (18 or 24 months) but with built in annual price increases of inflation plus 3.9%. A few, including Zen, offer both services but with no in-contract price increase. So we opted to place an order with Zen, encouraged by their generally good and long established reputation for quality service.
The experience has been a catalogue of failures and disasters. It’s not over yet. But I’d welcome comments.
The order was placed on 4 December. Zen said they needed just 3-4 days advance notice to set the changeover date. When the order was placed, we agreed to a switch date of 18 December: two weeks notice, with the switch just a few days before expiry of our Plusnet contract. The transfer was supposedly to be done under the Ofcom OneTouch Switch process, managed and coordinated entirely by Zen.
The 18 Dec date was confirmed by emails both from Zen and from Openreach (OR). Ahead of that Zen delivered a new router, which was successfully connected at the house and tested (their installation instructions were inaccurate, but that’s a separate and minor issue). So we disconnected the Plusnet router.
Failure #1. 18 December came and went. By the end of the day, and after several phone conversations with Zen, no switch, and no internet connection. In phone calls and emails the following morning, Zen said that OR engineers had encountered a problem “at the cabinet” and had requested two more days to fix it. We agreed.
Failure #2. By the end of 20 December, two days later, still no internet connection. And several email messages and phone advice from Zen that the switch would have to be rescheduled for 9 January. Some messages were contradictory: one stating that an engineer visit to the premises would be needed was subsequently overtaken by a message saying no such visit would be needed.
Failure #3. Meanwhile, our landline phone had gone dead. This became a whole separate problem with Zen and Plusnet each blaming each other. Despite the One Touch Switch rules, Zen said I should take this up with Plusnet directly. Eventually I did so, to be told that Plusnet had ceased the service on 18 Dec, having been told by Zen that was the switch date. Apparently when Zen did inform Plusnet – after 18 Dec – of the delayed switch, Plusnet were unable (or not permitted) to reinstate the landline phone service. We remain without a landline phone and have asked Zen to make sure that the number is retained/recovered so that it can be used for the VOIP service when we actually have an internet connection again. That window for re-use of the phone number apparently only lasts 30 days (ie to 18 Jan).
Failure #4. We waited the further two weeks until 9 January (yesterday). On 30 Dec I took the precaution of formally emailing Zen to instruct them to check with OR well ahead of the new 9 January switch date that the engineering problem had been fixed. I do not know if Zen did so. But they confirmed that the switch was firmly scheduled for the morning of 9 Jan, and quoted a job reference number. Well well, 9 January came and went. No switch, no internet connection.
Zen claimed in successive phone calls that they were awaiting notification from Openreach of the switch activation going live, at which point the Zen internet connection would automatically be made. This was supposed to happen by the end of the day,. They would check the next morning.
Well, today, 10 Jan, no surprise: still no internet connection. Over a month from placing the order, three weeks since the original switch date, three postponements/delays and three failures to deliver. The Zen customer service people have been unfailingly polite and profusely apologetic. But they seem incapable of actually taking any practical action, beyond repeated offers to chase Openreach. Totally ineffective. All mouth and no trousers.
It looks as if we have reached the end of the road. This situation is both unsustainable and unacceptable. I have to decide on next steps.
- do I continue this saga and simply continue pressing Zen? They are already well into delivery delay and failure territory, and obliged to pay compensation under Ofcom rules for the delay. But that is by way of credit when …. or indeed if … I actually have an active service with Zen. Ans I am no longer confident that they will ever deliver.
- do I pull the plug immediately and seek to retain and continue my internet service with Plusnet (which, claim Zen, will not actually be terminated until the new Zen service goes live)? That leaves the landline phone service in limbo, but that’s less critical than ensuring internet access.
- do I raise a formal complaint with Ofcom and/or CISAS? I have already registered my concerns – very politely – with Zen’s front line customer service people, and there is a full audit trail of some 20 emails and as many phone calls.
Unsurprisingly, I am less than impressed. Has Zen lost the plot?
Edited by br1anstorm (Fri 10-Jan-25 12:33:17)
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I feel your frustrations and am amazed you have stayed so polite.
I can not offer useful advice on how to resolve the issue, just a guess from me of what happened. I would suggest you would of had the same issue no matter which ISP you had gone with, they are all at the mercy of BTOR.
All any ISP can do is ask BTOR for updates!
It sounds like you have switched from a VDSL Service to FTTC.
VDSL would of (most lickley) have been a "single" long copper wire from your house to the exchange.
FTTC would be the same copper wire to the local "Copper cab" then a new copper link to the matching "Fibre cab" and Fibre from there to the exchange, sometimes the Fibre and copper cabs are the same one but often not.
It sounds to me like the issue was between the two cabs, one might of hoped if this was the case the OR engineer would of just left you connected to the old copper vdsl line but if you dont have a dile tone I would suggest they did not.
Various (Dial up) -> clara.net (Dial up) -> TELE2 (Microwave) -> ZeN (ADSL) -> ZeN (vDSL) -> ZeN (FTTP via CityFibre)
"Modem" GL.iNet GL-MT6000
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Please ensure you get your £6.10/day from Zen in compensation for the delayed activation of their service
https://www.ofcom.org.uk/phones-and-broadband/servic...
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Thanks, @RichTea23 for that reply (and to @jpm for the reminder about compensation.
It has been hard to remain patient and polite. But there seems little point in getting angry with Zen, who appear to have no leverage with BTOR. And I have no direct engagement with BTOR.
Just to clarify and confirm, I was aiming and expecting to switch from an ADSL(or VDSL?) broadband service with Plusnet to an FTTC service with Zen.
The guesswork as to possible causes of the delay and problems is interesting. But that's for BTOR, not for me, to deal with. They have provided no information or explanation, certainly not to me nor, it seems, to Zen who are supposedly in the driving seat.
Whatever the issue, BTOR have had since 4 December to tackle it. They agreed and confirmed a changeover date of 18 Dec. They then asked for 2 days postponement, then three weeks. The latest update message from Zen to me today says that they won't be doing anything until next week, and still can't give any assurance of completion of whatever work is required.
They have effectively had a month to deal with this. It evidently doesn't involve digging up roads or laying new lines to the premises. Its a simple switch on the existing network. If I had stayed with Plusnet and agreed a new (FTTC) contract with them, it would have been done immediately and seamlessly.
Compensation is of little comfort if I have no internet service, and it looks as if this is normally only paid by credit against the monthly charges for an active service contract. But I don't even have a service from Zen... and I have already paid £53 in advance (£15 transfer fee - for what? - plus first monthly payment for broadband and digital voice service). This hasn't been delivered and looks increasingly unlikely to happen.
So sadly I think it has to be time to call Game Over, pull the plug, launch a formal complaint of non-delivery and look at alternatives. Very depressing that it has come to this. But a clear warning about the reliability and quality of the assurance and commitments I was given.
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The ‘problem’ that all ISPs have is that BTOR provides the wires and BT Wholesale (BTW) undertakes the work needed to set up the new/transferred connection. BTW is NOT regulated by OFCom as it is deemed to be a wholesaler.
A couple of months ago, BTW placed a cease order on my line following a switching system firmware upgrade. My ISP could do absolutely nothing other than contact its BTW Account Manager and wait for updates. It took a week for BTW to reconfigure my connection.
Some ISPs (such as AAISP) claim that they have a way of getting the network provider to do things that other ISPs cannot. I have no idea whether these claims are true.
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Thanks, @GoWest, every comment and fragment of information helps in understanding the picture.
Bad enough that I thought there were just four players in the game - myself, Plusnet, Zen and OpenReach. The fact that there are apparently five - BTW as well as BTOR - just adds another link in the chain and even more opportunity to pass the buck.
It may be idealistic or unrealistic, but one would hope for more joined-upness, better co-ordination and full transparency. Still too much vagueness and evasion. The One Touch Switch process appeared to address that issue. But it clearly isn't adequate or effective. A clear case for Ofcom to get a better grip.
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OFCom cannot get a better grip of wholesalers: it would require Government legislation for it to get regulatory oversight.
Compensation for the loss of broadband service is still optional. Many ISPs are not signed up to the scheme.
https://www.ofcom.org.uk/phones-and-broadband/servic...
Under the new OTS Scheme, the gaining supplier is responsible for managing the switch. If you look at the compensation rules, the switch can be cancelled if service cannot be provided/restired after a certain amount of time.
Edited by GoWest (Fri 10-Jan-25 16:36:00)
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Thanks, @GoWest.
Zen are signed up to the OTS process (though they have sometimes argued that it's for me, not them, to liaise with Plusnet, my previous provider).
And they are signed up to the compensation scheme. Their customer service team with whom I've had numerous conversations (and who are as fed up as I am with BTOR prevarication and delay) have volunteered the advice that compensation will be payable "automatically" for delay in delivery.
But they didn't say that if the switch was delayed beyond a certain period, cancellation was an option. I'll search for the detailed guidance....
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It is in the link that I provided:
‘Providers can put a cap on the amount of compensation they pay out. After 30 days of an automatic compensation payment occurring, they can serve a cease notice to let you know that automatic compensation payments would stop after a further 30 days.’
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Many thanks again, @GoWest.
As I read that quote, it gives the provider the right to decide after 30 days of automatic payment to cease paying compensation after a further 30 days (ie 60 days from the original confirmed delivery date).
I don't see that as giving the customer (ie me) any right or option to withdraw or cancel - without penalty - and/or to be refunded if the provider fails to fulfill the agreed contract within a specified period, whether that be 30 days or 60.
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BT Wholesale are only relevant in cases where the ISP is using them as a wholesale provider. There are other wholesale providers such as TalkTalk, and every ISP can also have a presence in an Openreach handover exchange if they want, at which point there is no wholesale network involved.
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- do I continue this saga and simply continue pressing Zen? They are already well into delivery delay and failure territory, and obliged to pay compensation under Ofcom rules for the delay. But that is by way of credit when …. or indeed if … I actually have an active service with Zen. Ans I am no longer confident that they will ever deliver.
- do I pull the plug immediately and seek to retain and continue my internet service with Plusnet (which, claim Zen, will not actually be terminated until the new Zen service goes live)? That leaves the landline phone service in limbo, but that’s less critical than ensuring internet access.
- do I raise a formal complaint with Ofcom and/or CISAS? I have already registered my concerns – very politely – with Zen’s front line customer service people, and there is a full audit trail of some 20 emails and as many phone calls.
Raise a formal complaint with Zen. You can either ask the front-line staff to pass you onto the complaints team, or you can contact them directly:
https://www.zen.co.uk/contact-us/complaints/
List the story bullet points as you have above. Explain that the staff you have been dealing with have been always polite, but ineffectual. Zen should know it's their job to use the escalation processes within Openreach to resolve issues like this, not yours.
This is, in any case, the first step you'd need to follow before being able to take it up with ADR/CISAS.
Edited by candlerb (Fri 10-Jan-25 18:36:25)
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Well if you want to retain your phone number under Digital Voice you could opt for BT.
Also, if you are on social tariff https://www.bt.com/broadband/home-essentials
You could switch to BT FTTC, from Analogue Phone line to DV and you'll retain your phone number and receive free phone calls via their DV service.
I switched seamlessly to their FTTC service 2 years and 6 months ago and I pay only £20 a month and haven't been price hiked once in those 2 and a half years. Their service has been excellent for me 80/20 and connection is super stable almost 6 months of constant connection uptime until a firmware upgrade was pushed out just yesterday!
I took this option when TalkTalk price hiked us and it was under my dad's account name. I found Home Essentials 2 that BT offered because at that time after Covid lockdown I started claiming UC. I entered the landline number during the sign up process and that successfully switched me over from TalkTalk to the new BT Home Essentials 2. I received Smart Hub 2 and Alexa Phone. Phone calls are free to UK landline and mobile.
Zen are usually quite expensive and isn't something I'd recommend if price is on your agenda. If your service did not go live you should be able to quit penalty free. I'd look into switching to a new provider who will sort out your connection.
Frankly, a service shouldn't take 1 month for the switch over. It should take 2 weeks. Normally within 14 days you can cancel a provider if you are unhappy. But obviously here the situation is different for you since your Zen service hasn't yet gone live.
Maybe you are also victim of the staff shortage around Christmas and New Years and that might also be the cause for this mismanagement.
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Reading this thread is a big difference to my experience with openreach, that being said I normally communicate directly at a wholesale level so have dedicated teams to contact.
It might be worth reaching out to openreach to see what the hold-up is.
It is easier if you know the Openreach work order / ticket number which Zen will have on their internal ticket over in provisioning, while most CSP don't give it out I know some do.
Many Thanks,
RR-THE-IT-GUY
YouFibre 1Gbps symmetric
Talktalk 2014-2018 ADSL → Virgin Media Vivid 50 13/10/2018-2019 → Virgin Media M100 2020-05/2022 → Virgin Media M500 2022-05/10/2023 → IDNET 110x20 (FTTP) 20/11/2023 → YouFibre 1Gbps Symmetric with Static IP 2023-Current |
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It sounds like you have switched from a VDSL Service to FTTC. No, those are the same thing. Or, more accurately, FTTC stands for 'Fibre To The Cabinet' and such installations use VDSL for the final short copper run so the two terms have become synonymous.
VDSL would of (most lickley) have been a "single" long copper wire from your house to the exchange.
No, that would have been ADSL of some ilk. I think (I hope!) it's unlikely that any ISP would switch someone to ADSL from an FTTC service without a lot of persuasion in this day and age. I don't even know if BT would allow the order to be placed.
---
Andrue Cope
Brackley, UK
Edited by Andrue (Fri 10-Jan-25 19:55:31)
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Thanks, @jpm. That may be interesting background.
But I have no way of knowing , and do not care, whether and how Zen as the ISP is using BTW or some other wholesaler.
Nor do I know whether they "have a presence in an Openreach handover exchange". The nature of the relationship between Zen and BTOR is not and should not be my concern.
As the client, what matters to me is that Zen should ensure that the operation works smoothly and promptly and that the product I have ordered and they have agreed to supply should be delivered as agreed and on the date which they proposed.
This they have failed to do.
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Thanks, @candlerb.... a useful road map for action to raise a complaint.
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Thanks @ BLaZingSPEED. Interesting to know of your situation. But it is rather different to mine.
I am not eligible for social tariff.
My landline phone has already been ceased - on the originally-fixed switch date of 18 Dec. Plusnet and Zen each blame the other, and claim Openreach have refused to enable porting of the number to a digital voice service. It is not clear how "opting for BT" would resolve this.
I had anyway decided not to switch to BT because I object as a matter of principle to their policy of ratcheting up charges during a contract period. If I sign a contract for a fixed term I expect a fixed price. That is what Zen offer.
Zen do not appear to have a seasonal staff shortage, at least in customer service. I have always found staff available, and have dealt with at least half a dozen individuals. I cannot comment on the situation with BT OpenReach.
I very much agree that a switchover should not take a month... or more. But I cannot find anything in the terms and conditions which sets a timelimit or guarantees penalty-free cancellation for non-delivery.
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Reaching out to Openreach looks like a pragmatic step.
But I have no point of contact, and no order/ticket number. It would also be directly contrary to the OneTouch Switch procedure. And it should not be necessary.
If the process doesn't work, it should be rectified. Those responsible should be held to account. Trying to bypass or work around it is no solution.
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@Andrue.
I had an ADSL broadband service with Plusnet. I ordered, and hoped to receive, an FTTC service from Zen.
Not an unusual situation, but the sort of upgrade that is pretty widespread, standard and familiar. Which is why it is surprising, and unacceptable, that it is not being delivered efficiently and on time.
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Typically AAISP I would expect in this situation if they were told on the 20 Dec to wait until 9 January whilst the customer was offline, would refuse the 9 January and push, and push, and push until a more reasonable date was in place. Their interactions with wholesalers are visible on the consumer panel, so customers can see this happening.
So yeah these retail ISPs are beholden to the wholesalers, but it doesnt mean they have to roll over and not fight for their customer's.
Escalation processes should be available to Zen, its up to them to take it up.
The problem now that I see is the phone line number, I think if Zen was dropped then the number is gone. Also Zen are a wholesaler themselves as well, this may or may not have been (attempted) provisioned via BTw.
Edited by Chrysalis (Sat 11-Jan-25 05:47:12)
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@Andrue.
I had an ADSL broadband service with Plusnet. I ordered, and hoped to receive, an FTTC service from Zen.
Not an unusual situation, but the sort of upgrade that is pretty widespread, standard and familiar. Which is why it is surprising, and unacceptable, that it is not being delivered efficiently and on time. Upgrade, yes. But from the message I was replying to it appeared that someone was implying that you had been downgraded. I'm a bit surprised to be honest that people aren't being forcibly moved over to FTTC where it is available but perhaps BT has decided that can wait until they are forced onto FTTP.
---
Andrue Cope
Brackley, UK
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@Andrue.
I had an ADSL broadband service with Plusnet. I ordered, and hoped to receive, an FTTC service from Zen.
Not an unusual situation, but the sort of upgrade that is pretty widespread, standard and familiar. Which is why it is surprising, and unacceptable, that it is not being delivered efficiently and on time.
I wonder if the cabinet is full, but then it should show as 'unavailable'.
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It sounds like you have switched from a VDSL Service to FTTC. No, those are the same thing. Or, more accurately, FTTC stands for 'Fibre To The Cabinet' and such installations use VDSL for the final short copper run so the two terms have become synonymous.
VDSL would of (most lickley) have been a "single" long copper wire from your house to the exchange.
No, that would have been ADSL of some ilk. I think (I hope!) it's unlikely that any ISP would switch someone to ADSL from an FTTC service without a lot of persuasion in this day and age. I don't even know if BT would allow the order to be placed.
Your are right of course that should of said ADSL! thank you
Various (Dial up) -> clara.net (Dial up) -> TELE2 (Microwave) -> ZeN (ADSL) -> ZeN (vDSL) -> ZeN (FTTP via CityFibre)
"Modem" GL.iNet GL-MT6000
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I feel for you. Much as already been said but to pick up on a couple of points.
1) You can get the compensation sent to your bank account or credit card. It's what I did after the 7530 upgrade debacle.
2) As others have said, Zen are in the hands of Openreach.
3) But it does highlight an area of Zen's technical service that needs improving IMO or a better system put in place. When the internet first started and Zen started up it was all relatively simple. The support systems that Zen had in place worked fine for this simplicity. And it will still work for most problems at the moment. But where it fails IMO is when there is a complex issue - such as the 7530 debacle - where there will be a lot of emails flying back and forth. The trouble is that Zen's system as far as I can see ends up assigning a new ID to an incoming email and then the issue it get picks up by someone new who has no insight into what has gone before and so support becomes fragmented.
They really need a small dedicated specialist team with a proper case management system in place to handle events like the 7530 issue and also your problem.
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I don't disagree with any of that, I was responding to the post that said "The ‘problem’ that all ISPs have is that BTOR provides the wires and BT Wholesale (BTW) undertakes the work needed to set up the new/transferred connection.", which is untrue.
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I had problems some years ago which my then ISP, despite their best efforts, were unable to get resolved. My phone line was useless, my ISP knew it was useless, and the OR engineers who came out agreed it was useless but OR did nothing. An email to OR ceo had a new line installed within days. Give it a try.
[removed by tbb]
Good luck.
Just to add that I am currently with Andrews & Arnold who, while relatively expensive, are the best ISP I have ever used. They can also port your landline number to VOIP without any hassle, independent of your chosen ISP. Perhaps give them a call and see what they can do.
Adrian
Edited by seb (Mon 02-Feb-26 21:36:39)
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Thanks @ BLaZingSPEED. Interesting to know of your situation. But it is rather different to mine.
I am not eligible for social tariff.
My landline phone has already been ceased - on the originally-fixed switch date of 18 Dec. Plusnet and Zen each blame the other, and claim Openreach have refused to enable porting of the number to a digital voice service. It is not clear how "opting for BT" would resolve this.
I had anyway decided not to switch to BT because I object as a matter of principle to their policy of ratcheting up charges during a contract period. If I sign a contract for a fixed term I expect a fixed price. That is what Zen offer.
Zen do not appear to have a seasonal staff shortage, at least in customer service. I have always found staff available, and have dealt with at least half a dozen individuals. I cannot comment on the situation with BT OpenReach.
I very much agree that a switchover should not take a month... or more. But I cannot find anything in the terms and conditions which sets a timelimit or guarantees penalty-free cancellation for non-delivery. Well, if the landline phone has been ceased that's not good. I am presuming you have lost your phone number. But I am saying if you still had it then the migration should be straight forward during the switch over elsewhere.
Opting for BT may have solved that problem for you. But of-course as you say you don't qualify for social tariff. However, if you had a family member that's on pension credit or other benefits you can still sign up to such a service in their name and the cancellation with Zen should then be automatic for you as well.
That's how it worked for me as I entered our landline number from TalkTalk during sign up process I entered my National Insurance Number to prove my eligibility. Automatically the service got transferred from my dad's account into my account without the hassle of going through support chat. This was of-course thanks to the existing landline number that helped me switch over to BT Home Essentials 2.
I'm aware of the price hiking with ISPs mid-contract and I know BT like mostly all ISPs do this but not in the case of social tariffs as BT doesn't price hike on their Home Essentials 1/2 plans. My monthly package has remained the same at £20 per month for last 2 and a half years. I've been so happy with this service that despite Community Fibre FTTP being made available I've still remained with BT.
But anyway, I only posted this in case it was applicable for you. Obviously if your number has been ceased it may slightly complicate the situation.
Also, to some posters previously saying that your service may have accidentally been downgraded to ADSL with Zen, that can't be correct either as Zen don't even offer ADSL services even to users in areas with no FTTC/FTTP.
If you enter a postcode that had only ADSL and no FTTC/FTTP in the Zen checker it will come up like this.. "Unfortunately, we've not been able to find any online products for your address. Please call to check with our Sales Team on 01706 902912."
If you have no dial tone when you plug your phone then it may mean your service has migrated to Digital Voice. With DV you won't get dial tone if you plug your phone to the master socket. You have to plug your phone to the router to get dial tone but that of-course will only work if you have an active internet connection already.
You should be able to cancel penalty free on the grounds that you are not getting an active service. I'm not sure if it is still possible to switch to another ISP in case Zen are unable to sort out your connection.
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Several more interesting and useful contributions to this ongoing discussion. Rather than post separate thanks/responses to each, I'll pick up on a few points.
@countryman69's advice and experience on payment of compensation to bank account rather than by credit against ongoing contract bills is helpful - especially if in the end I get no service from Zen and thus have no contract with them.
I also think he is right to observe that Zen's support systems and technical service are no longer fit for purpose. My experience suggests there is a lot of left-hand not knowing what right hand is doing; a lack of focus and continuity with different staff picking up on messages and requests without being aware of context or background; and an inability or unwillingness to liaise and coordinate effectively with other parties, whether suppliers like OpenReach or other ISPs involved in a switch. Its not for me to identify what could be done about this: either an increase in serious complaints may lead to improvement, or clients will vote with their feet, which will force change or put Zen out of business.
@Adrian's suggestion of a letter to the OpenReach CEO about the specific issue around delivery of my switch to Zen is a tempting and perhaps predictable tactic. I may yet resort to that. For now, I'm playing by the rules and have submitted a detailed formal written complaint to Zen's complaints department, with a folder of emails as supporting evidence and a deadline for response and action.
As for Andrews&Arnold, who get good reviews for broadband service, as VOIP providers, and most importantly as a provider who gets things done, they are significantly more expensive. If I were running a business or service where online access was critical I would very probably sign up with them. But as a simple home user, I'm not yet sure I can justify paying for a Rolls Royce when all I need is a solid, reliable, practical family saloon car....
Edited by br1anstorm (Sat 11-Jan-25 21:14:25)
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Suggest you contact Zen’s CEO, Richard Tang, rather than the Openreach CEO in this instance.
https://www.ceoemail.com/s.php?id=ceo-10544&c=Zen%20...
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Thanks, @Pheasant. I wasn't aware of that website. Definitely worth a try. I've sent an email to Tang.
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Don’t mention it @br1anstorm
I hope they do right by you. You’ve had a terrible experience. Best of luck. 🤞 👍
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Well, if not a result, at least the prospect of meaningful progress. Over the weekend I had a shot at emailing the CEO of Zen, Richard Tang, not knowing whether the email address I had for him was valid. And... immediate response: a reply this morning from Tang personally, not a secretary or staff member, apologising and promising action.
So we now wait to see what happens next!
Edited by br1anstorm (Mon 13-Jan-25 11:53:24)
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Good progress. 👍
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It sounds like you have switched from a VDSL Service to FTTC.
VDSL would of (most lickley) have been a "single" long copper wire from your house to the exchange.
FTTC would be the same copper wire to the local "Copper cab" then a new copper link to the matching "Fibre cab" and Fibre from there to the exchange, sometimes the Fibre and copper cabs are the same one but often not.
It sounds to me like the issue was between the two cabs, one might of hoped if this was the case the OR engineer would of just left you connected to the old copper vdsl line but if you dont have a dile tone I would suggest they did not.
Vdsl2 and fttc are the same thing - just different names. You have muddled adsl to vdsl and fttc being something where in fact its:
adsl - copper line to the exchange and the fibre backend
vdsl(fttc) - copper to the cabinet and then via fibre to the nearest aggregate node.
full fibre (fttp) - fibre from your premises to the headend change via the aggregate node
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There is a way to verify if the email is valid or not by checking through the email on this website. https://verifalia.com/validate-email
Classification:
Deliverable
Status:
Valid email, with no high-risk factors detected: safe to send mail.
Status code:
Success (What's this?)
This is what it will show. If it shows as Undeliverable with a red classification then it means that it won't be delivered. Usually you will get a failed email notification something along with daemon failed to delivery email. But since it shows as Deliverable with a green classification it means that the email is valid and it won't be a waste of your time writing.
Whenever someone sends me an email address or I find out from the web I first verify that the email is valid so that way I won't waste my time and energy writing an email only to find that the email will fail to be sent. That will avoid potential frustration.
Sometimes also someone might write on a piece of paper their email and I might be confused whether the letter is an "i" or an "l" or whether there is a dot and due to this typing error may mean the email fails to be sent and this helps me verify, which is correct.
Likewise this is also useful if you want to delete your email address and verify that it has been deleted. For example, in 2017 I deleted my gmail address because of spam. I was getting around 300 junk emails a week and I wanted to delete my gmail address to put an end to this and by verifying that it was deleted that meant that I was sure that the spammers can no longer successfully send an email.
Hopefully he should be able to help you resolve your issue. You could even email him the link to this thread so that way your concern is taken more seriously! Of-course naturally I would expect him to try and resolve your problem as he would not want to lose you as a customer.
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How are you getting on Brian, any meaningful progress?
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Thanks, @Pheasant, for your continuing interest (it helps me feel I am not alone in grappling with this issue!).
For you and all those forum members who have been kind enough to offer advice and comment, or brave enough to follow this thread and story - I can offer an update.
Miraculously, some progress. But still some way to go. Zen haven't yet redeemed themselves.
The formal complaint to Zen, high-level pressure, and imminent expiry of the 30-day window for porting the phone number to VOIP, seems eventually to have got through to Zen and galvanised some action.
After four postponements and delays in activation the latest (equally uncertain) switchover date was to have been 21 January. I pointed out this was a delay of more than a month and beyond the 17 Jan phone-porting deadline.
Zen "pulled forward" the tasking of OpenReach to address whatever the issues were, and said an engineer would be at the cabinet today (Thu 16 Jan) to sort things out, and he might want to visit the premises too. I committed to staying in for such a visit.
The engineer turned up. He confirmed that everything in the cabinet was correctly set up and tested. He then checked out the sockets and connections at the premises. Zen's router all plugged in correctly. Good signal and connection at the socket (he did all kinds of tests, said that broadband connection was available, with speed of 30 megs). Fritzbox router powered up, showed power and WLAN. But no connection to the internet....
He ran various diagnostics, logged in to the router's control panel, and was baffled. His analysis was that the router was not identifying itself or giving/getting a "handshake" with the Zen servers (I didn't grasp all the technical details). So he spoke to Zen tech support.
Long story short, after much discussion and checking, a "factory reset" of the Fritzbox router. And Hey Presto! Internet connection. Loud clear and strong. And so it has remained all day.
Go figure, as they say. It is hard to avoid the suspicion that the Fritzbox router, supplied by Zen with all settings supposedly pre-programmed, was the problem all along. There might never have been an defect at the cabinet. Whatever OpenReach and/or Zen were doing remotely over the past month to track and identify the problem, they evidently weren't looking at the router settings. Nor did they suggest or ask me to do so.
If that assessment is accurate (and it was certainly OpenReach engineer's view that the problem was with Zen, not the OR network), that doesn't exactly reflect well on Zen. Their customer service people have spent the past month delaying the changeover, apologising and making excuses to me, and blaming Openreach and - in respect of the phone cutoff - Plusnet. It looks as if their organisation, and the liaison between customer service and tech support teams is not fit for purpose (as @countryman69 commented in an earlier post above).
We're not yet out of the woods. Now we have broadband I still await the activation of our digital voice (VOIP) service using the ported number from our landline. It needs to happen tomorrow. We shall see.....
But the latest twist - adding insult to injury - is an automated email from Zen this evening notifying compensation for the delay in delivery of service: the sum of £36.60 for a delay of - wait for it - 6 days!
How they reckon the period from 18 Dec (the designated switch date) to 16 Jan adds up to a delay of 6 days I cannot fathom. Either Zen can't even do simple arithmetic; or their automatic systems are rubbish; or this is a deliberate try-on. I have responded in pretty blunt terms, with documented evidence of the 29-day delay, pointing out that the Ofcom rules mean that £176.90 is due in compensation. Again we shall see what Zen's response to that will be.
Conclusion? Looks like I'm now stuck with Zen for the 18-month duration of the contract I signed, though I still await the VOIP phone activation. And the jury is still considering the verdict on this whole case. It certainly hasn't lived up to Zen's claims of being an efficient and reliable provider.
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That’s good progress. Excellent that you have internet access. Now to get the number ported over….
Don’t worry too much about the automated email re comp. They should get that sorted. I was badly let down mid year by EE and Openreach during an FTTP regrade. Luckily I had an alternative service so it wasn’t a complete showstopper, but they did put their money where their mouth was. Eventually. £230 credit was duly applied to the account, which was over and above what was owed.
Fingers crossed for the number porting 🤞
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There is one hypothesis, the Zen router was originally having different username/password login details from another customer who probably returned the router after their contract had ended. Zen forgot to do a factory reset of the router and possibly it was failing to log you in and so you were left without a connection as a result.
I once had this with an ISP router, I forgot, which router it was. I could not login to the router settings because the Admin password was changed! I had to factory reset the router by hold pressing the reset button with a pen inside the hole. Then the admin password allowed me to login.
Customer changed the default password and I believe I inherited their router. The problem is not always the router is brand new that is being supplied by the ISP.
Actually, wait, indeed Zen are doing this! Just found their FAQs https://www.zen.co.uk/resources/docs/default-source/...
What will you do with it?
We partner with a trusted third party who will take care to wipe any data left on the device
(including personal data) and restore it to its factory settings. They will then refurbish the device,
ensuring that any damage is repaired and that it is working as designed. They’ll also make sure that
the required cables are in working order.
Once the router is refurbished it will go back into our stock ready for the next customer to use.
Why are you doing this?
From December 2021 we have a legal obligation to provide a takeback service for equipment that
we sell but we also want to do our bit for the environment. It’s important to us that we follow the
waste duty of care hierarchy and Reduce, Reuse, Recycle, in that order. By asking customers to
return routers to us, we are reducing the need for the manufacture of new routers and are reusing
them for other customers, which will have a positive impact on the environment.
This is what probably happened. They forgot to wipe and restore the factory settings of the router and so then the router did not work for your connection. Someone at Zen has repackaged or sent you the router without resetting it. They are also saving money to not have to buy new routers from the manufacturer.
Not good from Zen's end. Customer service should've suggested to factory reset the router in the first place! That may have been all that was needed. It was probably a waste of time for the Openreach engineer to turn up at your property for something so ridiculous as that. At least you have the peace of mind to know that the fault is not at the Openreach cabinet.
Hopefully your Digital Voice will take only a few days to activate.
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I'm glad you're up and working but despair that Zen didn't suggest a Factory Reset much earlier.
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How they reckon the period from 18 Dec (the designated switch date) to 16 Jan adds up to a delay of 6 days I cannot fathom.
Possibly from the date of your formal complaint? But in any case, I'm sure they'll fix it when you request. It's not like there isn't any evidence trail!
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I share your despair and surprise @countryman69, that the Zen customer service people - who were supposedly managing this from day 1 - did not recommend or initiate a technical check by their own tech support people on the day the changeover was supposed to happen - 18 December.
Recalling the emails and phone calls I exchanged with them that day and subsequently, it now seems clear that Zen's customer service simply didn't know, or understand, what was happening. All they did was apologise and say to me that "there was a problem" - which was clearly the message they had got from OpenReach. No proactive approach, no initiative, no inclination to investigate, check, get technical advice and look for solutions.
Since I have submitted a formal complaint, there will be a full review. Zen has the detailed audit trail of email and phone call records. Thanks to Openreach's engineer, Zen and I now know the cause of the problem: the Zen-supplied router was not communicating with, or wasn't being authenticated by, Zen's own back-end or servers. That could have been fixed on 18 December. A "factory reset" of the router and check of Zen's own systems/servers seems - in hindsight - such a simple step.
It will be very interesting to discover whether (if at all) the customer service people consulted, or sought advice and action from, their own tech support staff then or at any point during the following three weeks. If the review shows that they did not, that will demonstrate beyond doubt that they were ignorant, ineffective, or both. The investigation review will I hope also reveal the detailed exchanges between Openreach and Zen ,
It will I assume end up costing Zen a lot of money. OpenReach will presumably charge Zen for the deployment of an engineer who established there was no fault with the OR network but that the problem was caused by Zen; and they will owe me obligatory compensation for the 29 days delay.
We still haven't got the digital voice service operating. We need to know what Zen did, or did not, communicate to the previous provider, Plusnet, who disabled or stopped our landline on 18 Dec well before Zen had activated the broadband connection required for the replacement VOIP service which was part of the order.
All of this rather confirms the conclusion that Zen's management and handling of the switch has been inadequate and incompetent throughout. The many individuals in Zen to whom I have spoken over the past month have all been polite and well meaning. But clearly pretty clueless. Their senior managers appear now to have begun to get a grip. But it 's all a bit last-minute, and the deal isn't yet completely done.
Given that Zen were supposed to be coordinating the whole exercise under the One Touch Switch process, that is a pretty damning indictment.
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A sorry saga indeed. One thing that is puzzling me is the extract below from your very first post:-
“The 18 Dec date was confirmed by emails both from Zen and from Openreach (OR). Ahead of that Zen delivered a new router, which was successfully connected at the house and tested (their installation instructions were inaccurate, but that’s a separate and minor issue). So we disconnected the Plusnet router.”
How was the router tested?
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Helllo @bellerby - welcome to the discussion.
It feels like a long time since that first agreed switchover date of 18 Dec. To answer your question, early on the morning of that day, before the switchover itself, I had to connect the new Zen Fritzbox router both to the correct socket in the wall of our premises, and to my own devices (computer, printer, mobile), so that it was ready.
Incidentally our "old" Plusnet router had been delivering steady and reliable connection to the internet for years. So it seemed inherently unlikely that there was any issue with our master socket, the wiring in the house, or the copper wire connection from our house to the BT/OpenReach telecomms infrastructure (cabinet/exchange/whatever).
So I followed the connection instructions supplied with the Fritzbox router, to plug it in to the socket in place of the (old) Plusnet router. That highlighted the fact that the cable supplied in the router box, which had a different plug at each end, didn't seem to fit very well into the sockets (ports) in the back of the router and the master socket in the house. Hence the call to Zen tech support, who were embarrassed to admit that the instructions were the wrong way round: small plug into wall socket, larger plug into router.... not vice versa.
We then verified that the router had power (the 'Power/DSL' indicator light on the router was solid green) and that my computers and mobile could "see" and connect by wifi to the router: the WLAN indicator light also solid green, and (once password entered) computers showed connection to the router with good signal strength.
And that was it. That was the only test I could do. At that point I understood that whatever action was being taken by Zen and/or Openreach to actually change over wiring connections or flick switches remotely in the exchange, at the cabinet, or on the servers, to activate the new service hadn't yet happened. So the fact that my computer said "connected, no internet" seemed logical: good connection to router, router plugged in, but not (yet) able to access the internet.
And that is how it stayed - that day, the following day, and for the next three weeks. Zen customer service initially said on the day that the connection would take a short while (an hour or so?) to "go live". They said this would be done "remotely" when OpenReach had done whatever they needed to do, and the router would then automatically be linked to the internet.
It didn't happen - then or at any point between 18 Dec and 16 Jan. As each rescheduled changeover date came and went, the router (which I had unplugged and replugged each time) showed the same display And the information Zen customer service gave me was that OpenReach were still working on. or needed more time to sort out, the configuration "at the cabinet".
As we now understand, OpenReach had apparently done whatever they needed to do straightaway, back on 18 Dec. But it still didn't, or couldn't, "go live". And we now know (but only from the OpenReach engineer yesterday) that this was because the Zen Fritzbox router couldn't go through the "handshake" (=identification/authentication) process with the Zen servers that it needed to work with. Something to to with "packets" was a problem (I'm not an engineer, so the tech details are lost on me).
But - as we also now know - a "factory reset" of the router, and a re-set or tweak of the Zen servers etc by their tech support, solved the problem, and enabled the Zen Fritzbox router to connect to whatever Zen systems or servers it needed to link to. That was all that was needed. A simple 10-minute process. Yet at no stage during the three weeks had anyone suggested this, or taken such action. It was only done as a result of the conversation between the OpenReach guy and Zen tech support yesterday.
Hardly surprising that my conclusion is that Zen (at the very least their customer staff) are clueless and ineffective.
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Thanks for that explanation, I now fully understand. I can only add my astonishment that a factory reset was not suggested especially as it was not a router that had been working in your environment. It tends to be a “go to” request from CS people for any reported issue even though in the majority of cases it is no more than “a hoop to jump through”. Clearly not in your case though.
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The factory reset might explain why the link came up - although "no credentials" rather than "a previous customer's credentials" doesn't seem right, it's possible they have some sort of auto-provisioning.
But it doesn't at all explain why the voice number didn't port. Unless it *has* ported, and the problem is just with client-side VOIP config.
What do you hear if you try to dial that number from outside?
What happens if you plug a phone into the Zen router, and dial your mobile? If the call connects, is the CLI correct?
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Thanks for that explanation, I now fully understand. I can only add my astonishment that a factory reset was not suggested especially as it was not a router that had been working in your environment. It tends to be a “go to” request from CS people for any reported issue even though in the majority of cases it is no more than “a hoop to jump through”. Clearly not in your case though.
Quite so! Now that we have gone through all this, I too am astonished that Zen's CS people didn't immediately seek the advice of their own tech support colleagues on the day of the switchover (18 Dec). It seems so obvious - that they should have got their tech people to check that the brand new pre-programmed Fritzbox router supplied to me was talking to, or being "seen" by, Zen's own servers or systems.
Some awkward questions for Zen to answer in the investigation and review which they now have to carry out because of my formal complaint. We'll see whether they own up to their errors.
The porting of the phone service is another - fairly separate - chapter in the story.
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The factory reset might explain why the link came up - although "no credentials" rather than "a previous customer's credentials" doesn't seem right, it's possible they have some sort of auto-provisioning.
But it doesn't at all explain why the voice number didn't port. Unless it *has* ported, and the problem is just with client-side VOIP config.
What do you hear if you try to dial that number from outside?
What happens if you plug a phone into the Zen router, and dial your mobile? If the call connects, is the CLI correct?
Hello @candlerb. As regards the Zen router and the factory reset which got it working, I am quite clear that the router itself was brand new. It came in a sealed box and itself had film-wrapping. It had quite clearly not been previously used. The instructions, and Zen's advice, say that their router is pre-programmed to authenticate and connect when plugged in to an available broadband connection.
I think the hypothesis that it had been refurbished and had some previous user's credentials and settings in it is a complete red herring and risks taking the discussion down an irrelevant blind alley.
The porting of the phone service and number from landline to digital voice (VOIP) is a separate, albeit related, exercise. Under the Ofcom rules and the One Touch Switch process, Zen was supposed to manage and coordinate the whole process. The "old" landline phone provided by Plusnet should not have been disconnected or ceased until Zen notified Plusnet that the new broadband connection had gone live and was ready to take on the new digital voice service.
It seems however that Zen informed Plusnet of the proposed switch date of 18 Dec, and Plusnet immediately - on that day - stopped the landline phone service. This was despite my emailing Zen instructing them to make sure the landline phone remained operational until it was confirmed that the switch of broadband service had been successfully completed.
Zen customer service blamed Plusnet for disconnecting the landline phone "prematurely", and said Plusnet ought to reinstate it. Plusnet blamed Zen for not telling them - before they cut off the service - that the switchover had not completed and would be delayed. And Plusnet said that, having cut the landline service, they were "not allowed" by BT to reinstate it.
So we have been without a phone service since 18 Dec. My main concern has been to ensure that our actual number was held and available for porting/transfer and use with the VOIP service. The BT rules say the number has to be ported within 30 days, or it is lost. Hence my having to chase Zen to get the changeover completed and activated within those 30 days.
The new broadband finally went live yesterday. But Zen still haven't sorted out the porting of the number and the activation of the VOIP service. I am still getting excuses from them. A month ago they were saying that the porting and VOIP would take some 5 days after the broadband connection went live. Then they said that BT had "rejected" the porting request because the landline service had already been stopped. Plusnet said that during the 30 day period the number was still under their control and "in quarantine" until it was either reassigned to our new VOIP service or would be handed back to BT and lost for good.
The latest update from Zen is that they have "resubmitted" the order (apparently it goes to, or via, BT IPEX) for the number to be ported over for use with VOIP; that there has been some - unexplained - difficulty with Plusnet; but that they are still "hoping" that the porting will happen and the new VOIP service will then be activated. So I continue to wait, and will see what happens next week.
To answer your practical questions: our phone handset is plugged into the FON socket on our new router. Attempts to call our number from outside get the recorded message "it has not been possible to connect your call". If I try to make an outgoing call to my mobile or another landline number from the handset (plugged in to the router) I do get a dial tone and then the beeps as it dials the number, but then I get the 'engaged' or 'number unobtainable' tone. So my conclusion is that the phone is not operational at the moment (and hasn't been since 18 Dec).
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The latest update from Zen is that they have "resubmitted" the order (apparently it goes to, or via, BT IPEX) for the number to be ported over for use with VOIP; that there has been some - unexplained - difficulty with Plusnet; but that they are still "hoping" that the porting will happen and the new VOIP service will then be activated. So I continue to wait, and will see what happens next week.
The spanner in the works with the porting now, is that Plusnet have done what they were told initially and released the number.
After the apparent issues with the new FTTC service, Zen then attempted to back things out, but it was possibly all too little and too late.
As the gaining provider Zen are responsible for the successful management of both the new internet service and also the porting of the number.
They shouldn't be attempting to pass the buck, or apportion the blame to Plusnet here. This rests squarely with them to pick and resolve the mess they instigated.
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...
As the gaining provider Zen are responsible for the successful management of both the new internet service and also the porting of the number.
They shouldn't be attempting to pass the buck, or apportion the blame to Plusnet here. This rests squarely with them to pick and resolve the mess they instigated.
I completely agree, @Pheasant. Regrettably, the inclination to blame others and duck responsibility has been a feature of Zen's behaviour throughout. I don't intend to let them off the hook.
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I ought to provide an update and - I hope - the final instalment in this saga, for those who have been following the story.
As already mentioned, after a month of to-ing and fro-ing we eventually got an FTTC broadband service from Zen after the OpenReach engineer pointed out that the problem with activation was with the link between the Zen router and Zen's systems/servers.
We had to go down to the wire over the porting of the 'old' landline phone number to Zen's Digital Voice (VOIP) service. A routine transfer could not be done because Plusnet (who managed the landline service) had ceased the service before the broadband connection on which the VOIP depends was up and running. There was a 30-day "window" to retain and re-use our existing phone number. Direct messages to the Zen CEO and high-level intervention by senior management with BT just managed to produce a result in time. We now have a VOIP service from Zen, using our 'old' phone number.
As well as apologising profusely, Zen paid the obligatory compensation for the month-long delay in carrying out the switch. They declined to pay compensation for the few days' additional delay in providing the phone service (saying this was Plusnet's fault). But they added a 'goodwill' payment for all the inconvenience and aggravation, which added up to a total payment of over £200.
This ought to have been a straightforward switch of provider; it wasn't a new installation and didn't require any special technical arrangements. It should not have needed a formal complaint and high level pressure on senior management. I hope Zen have learned some lessons about how to manage switchovers effectively.
For me, I suppose the relevant quote - stolen from Shakespeare - is "All's well that ends well". Now I hope that the Zen services we signed up to will prove efficient and reliable through the rest of the 18-month contract.
Thanks again to all in this forum who commented and took an interest.
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Hi br1anstorm
I read this thread with interest - have recently had to raise a complaint with Zen as they have added a £108 missed engineer charge to my account despite me never missing an engineer. Just appeared during my first month of service and the response has been awful.
It's probably for it's own thread, but I'd appreciate any advice re: contacting the Zen CEO, does the ceo@ address work?
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Hi br1anstorm
I read this thread with interest - have recently had to raise a complaint with Zen as they have added a £108 missed engineer charge to my account despite me never missing an engineer. Just appeared during my first month of service and the response has been awful.
It's probably for it's own thread, but I'd appreciate any advice re: contacting the Zen CEO, does the ceo@ address work?
I think you are right: it makes sense to start a separate thread. I've sent you a Private Message...
Edited by br1anstorm (Fri 14-Feb-25 18:59:47)
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Sorry to bump the thread, but thought I could add some clarification here.
Worked at Zen for a while a few years ago on the Tech Support team, so things may have changed since then - take this with a grain of salt!
The reason this issue wasn't referred to the Technical Team (instead you likely spoke to the Provisioning or Pre-Live team), is that Tech support have no control over any services that aren't deemed 'Live'. As Zen systems likely had no indication that your service was in fact live, and (I assume, at least) they received notification from OR that there was an issue, then your service was never moved into the 'Live' category.
Due to this, you didn't speak to the Tech support team, who are trained to check/try several things, including a factory reset as a nuclear option.
As the service wasn't showing as Live on Zen's side, Pre-live would then do all of the checks instead, focusing more on the provisioning of the service and liasing with OR/BTWholesale.
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This ought to have been a straightforward switch of provider; it wasn't a new installation and didn't require any special technical arrangements.
In all fairness, most ISPs seem to have had a hard time porting broadband + landline to broadband + VOIP. Its not remotely straightforward due to how Openreach/BT deal with it their side.
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