Usual Chaos

Time to risk WW3 and have a final grumble about the chaotic systems of Plusnet.
I have just switched both line and broadband from Plusnet and fully expected some tidying up with the final bill. My billing date has always been the 25th, so waiting for the overpaid Broadband was fully expected.
We need to give you a refund. This is because you have overpaid us for your account.

You're due a refund of £9.00 and we're currently processing this for you.

The refund will appear in your bank account soon, this may take up to 14 days.
So Plusnet owe me money and are going to hold onto it uptil the usual billing date.
So, why are they grabbing 63p this week, for a couple of phone calls that took place after my last billing date.
We'll soon be taking a payment of £0.63 for your service. This will leave
your account on or after 16/07/2012.

Edited by professor973 (Wed 11-Jul-12 09:58:37)

The refund will appear in your bank account soon, this may take up to 14 days.

That sounds like a direct debit refund, which can take 10 working days (14 calendar days) to appear back in your account, it just happens to coincide with when your next bill would have been.

Yes I realise that, but am wondering why it couldn't all be sorted in one bill as usual.

Chaos?
OTT?
AH - not unusual for m0aur.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Chaos?
OTT?
AH - not unusual for m0aur.

Mornin' Sniper!

All sounds very efficient to me, no idea why it seems to upset you so much. Chill.

In reply to a post by kasg:

All sounds very efficient to me, no idea why it seems to upset you so much. Chill.

It does not upset me at all. I am actually entertained by their chaotic systems. As I said, Broadband and phone charges are usually detailed in one bill, so I cannot see any reason on earth outside a chaotic system to charge me 63p for a couple of calls by direct debit when I am already £9 in credit due to Broadband overpayment.
If working like that seems very efficient to you, you would do well at B.T. or Tescon organising the next money-grab wheeze.

Edited by professor973 (Wed 11-Jul-12 12:00:25)

Possibly amending the £9 would delay the process further

It seems very detailed to me though. You know exactly what's happening. What's the issue with that?

Could be a lot worse

At lets end that sub thread at this point.

Try a book on elementary book-keeping prof , and then do some research into maintaining valid audit trails in complex integrated sales & order, stock, invoicing and accounting computer systems.

There are possibly better ways of organising your specific type of transaction, but the system as it is handles things fine without adding unnecessary exponentially growing complexity.

Every single transaction has to be easily tracable through the system by the company's auditors, usually charged by the (extremely expensive) hour when approving the annual accounts. Many individual items are checked in this way, from beginning to end. KISS applies.

Edited by RobertoS (Wed 11-Jul-12 12:31:07)

In reply to a post by professor973:

As I said, Broadband and phone charges are usually detailed in one bill, so I cannot see any reason on earth outside a chaotic system to charge me 63p for a couple of calls by direct debit when I am already £9 in credit due to Broadband overpayment.

How a billing system is produced has no bearing on how transactions occur. Billing systems will show transactions for several systems, but the transactions themselves might occur on seperate systems. The calls and broadband systems are seperate.

You may see it as chaotic, but Plusnet have bolted several systems together over the years as their product base has expanded. It's not that chaotic that I can't spot a billing anomaly.

In reply to a post by professor973:

As I said, Broadband and phone charges are usually detailed in one bill, so I cannot see any reason on earth outside a chaotic system to charge me 63p for a couple of calls by direct debit when I am already £9 in credit due to Broadband overpayment.

You've had goodness knows how many explanations already, but the 63p is a regular charge through the normal billing system and the £9 refund is an exceptional item due to the termination of your service. I would fully expect them to be handled separately by most companies and it certainly would not be worthwhile for Plusnet to manually combine them. It makes absolutely no material difference to you, Plusnet has charged you correctly, yet still you come on here to start a Plusnet-bashing thread. Groan.

In reply to a post by professor973:

The refund will appear in your bank account soon, this may take up to 14 days.

Just be thankful it's not HMRC that owe you money!

They can take months to process a refund.

You've had goodness knows how many explanations already, but the 63p is a regular charge through the normal billing system and the £9 refund is an exceptional item due to the termination of your service. I would fully expect them to be handled separately by most companies and it certainly would not be worthwhile for Plusnet to manually combine them. It makes absolutely no material difference to you, Plusnet has charged you correctly, yet still you come on here to start a Plusnet-bashing thread. Groan.

The 63p charge as far as I know is for calls between my last bill and when my line was transferred. I cannot see the £9 refund is any way an exceptional item, it is for a couple of weeks broadband that I paid for and did not use.
You have had goodness knows how many explanations from me, that phone AND Brooadband charges are detailed within the same bill regardless of being a plus or minus amount, and I don't see why the final bill should be any different in a decently run system, so you are as stupid as you consider me.
As for your so called Plusnet bashing, I treat all suppliers the same in that I speak as I find, it is not my fault they are no better than most and well short of the claims within their silly adverts.

Charges for calls can take a time to reach the ISP, so to be safe Plusnet would probably have to wait a couple of weeks before issuing a consolidated final statement and then it would take up to two more weeks for the refund to reach you.

So you are saying you'd prefer to wait a month for your £8.37 refund rather than get the £9 refund in a more timely manner with a separate bill for the last few calls?

I wish your new supplier every success in its relationship with you.

So you are saying you'd prefer to wait a month for your £8.37 refund rather than get the £9 refund in a more timely manner with a separate bill for the last few calls?

Were you lucky enough to be born stupid, or did you have to study?
It has been stated that a £9 refund CAN take up to 14 days, so why are you stating that I think one of £8.37 should take a month?
As I stated in the first post, I just knew the morons would have to turn it into WW3.

Edited by professor973 (Wed 11-Jul-12 15:32:29)

Personally, it wouldn't really bother me how many bills Plusnet generate, as long as the end figures are correct.

As I stated in the first post, I just knew the morons would have to turn it into WW3.

I really don't think the insult is warranted, and I don't understand how this has turned into WW3?

You paid your bill, we owe you £9 as you left prior to the end of that billed period. We're refunding that. During the period of cancellation you accumulated some call charges, we're requesting that payment.

In reply to a post by professor973:

As I stated in the first post, I just knew the morons would have to turn it into WW3.

In other words, you knew you were being deliberately provocative by making something out of nothing. Pot, kettle, etc.

I really don't think the insult is warranted, and I don't understand how this has turned into WW3?

You paid your bill, we owe you £9 as you left prior to the end of that billed period. We're refunding that. During the period of cancellation you accumulated some call charges, we're requesting that payment.

As per usual with Plusnet, you still have not explained why the few pence for calls could not be taken from the credit I have. It seems like bill layout and email addresses, just another odd way of doing things

Post deleted by MrSaffron

I will count to ten, but if another post is like that then you are suspended.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

I will count to ten, but if another post is like that then you are suspended.

Please yourself, I will not miss the moronic element.

Does it matter?
At the end of the day so long as the amounts are correct?

Seen plenty of odd billing issues from many providers over the years. e.g. Zen if you are in credit issue a credit note, that you have to manually apply to get paid back to you.

In reply to a post by chrisparr:

and I don't understand how this has turned into WW3?

...because the OP wants to make statements without opposing points of view, so now he's anticipating them.

The "You're all wrong" method doesn't work generally. Be ready for a final final thread on how the denominations of the payment were wrong (yes, I know it's DD; it's a joke).

In reply to a post by professor973:

It has been stated that a £9 refund CAN take up to 14 days, so why are you stating that I think one of £8.37 should take a month?

I note how you deliberately omitted quoting the part of my post which answers your question (presumably in your quest to be as awkward as possible). I'll quote the relevant part:

In reply to a post by jelv:

Charges for calls can take a time to reach the ISP, so to be safe Plusnet would probably have to wait a couple of weeks before issuing a consolidated final statement and then it would take up to two more weeks for the refund to reach you.

I'll spell it out: At the moment Plusnet initiate the refund before they have received all the data for the last few phone calls. If they were to issue only a final statement with a single refund or charge they would have to wait a significant period before they could be sure all the data had been received - I suggested a couple of weeks (but that may not be enough). Only then could they start the process of issuing the refund which would take up to a further two weeks (10 working days).

Now I don't know what they taught you when you were at school, but I learnt that two weeks plus two weeks was as near as dammit a month!

A bit of whimsy on my part perhaps but I do wish posters could see the value of a one handed hand clap.

Now, what was that old saying? Don't arrange meals on wheels for the little folks who live under the bridge...or some such.

Point taken.

/huff

Ought to try cancelling a Halifax credit card... I have one that I have tried cancelling 4 times but it was a cash back card that has 23p cashback on it. It is kind of difficult to use up the credit (partly because it is a tiny amount and partly because you spend on the card which gives cash back which at the end of the year turns into credit).

So, you ring them, cancel the card that is in CREDIT. And then 6 months later get a bill saying you must pay them - the amount to be paid is £0 because I'm in credit!

Have to say, I would take Plusnet's management of bills from this thread over the management of the credit card that I cannot seem to cancel no matter how often I try!

You can instruct them to donate the credit balance to charity. Everyone wins.

Post deleted by billford

For other readers' benefit - Post reported via the "Report" button. (Some of you may not have that).

That's at least two reports sent then!

Seems a seam has become broken in his brain. It certainly isn't the post of a rational being.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Seems a seam has become broken in his brain. It certainly isn't the post of a rational being.

Give over you pompous twit, is it my fault if the board does not display the Chinese character set. But never mind, run off and tell sir.

If that was accidental I suggest you turn on message preview.

If it wasn't, I wouldn't recommend doing it again.

In reply to a post by billford:

If that was accidental I suggest you turn on message preview.

If it wasn't, I wouldn't recommend doing it again.

If what was accidental? If you mean posting in Chinese, it was deliberate.

In reply to a post by professor973:

In reply to a post by billford:

If that was accidental I suggest you turn on message preview.

If it wasn't, I wouldn't recommend doing it again.

If what was accidental? If you mean posting in Chinese, it was deliberate.

Loop.

Edited by RobertoS (Wed 11-Jul-12 23:19:41)

In reply to a post by professor973:

If you mean posting in Chinese, it was deliberate.

In that case it's trolling.

Take a little while to ponder the inadvisability of ignoring warnings from moderators.

Very sensible & reasonable!

Bet no tears are shed there over defection of OP

Now that is interesting - I didn't know that. Maybe when I get the energy to sit on the phone with them I will try that and see if I can finally get that card off my record (not that it is doing much harm but still)

Thanks camie.

In reply to a post by billford:

Take a little while to ponder the inadvisability of ignoring warnings from moderators.

He already warned him. Why delay? Just end it by banning professor973. He's noting but causing trouble here and it doesn''t look good for TB.

LOL hyper!

What do you think "Take a little time ..." means?

Closing this sub-thread so if there is any positive input or people with genuine problems they can comment.

Sniping and name calling will not be tolerated.

Edited by MrSaffron (Thu 12-Jul-12 10:05:54)

I think something very simple is possibly being missed here, PlusNet had ALREADY PROCESSED the £9.00 refund (it could take UP TO 14 days due to the time the banking systems work), the credit was therefore no longer in your PlusNet account to deduct the 63p from! I bet the credit arived back in your bank account before the 14 days!

The Shambles continues ......
I am all safely away from Plusnet, but the shambles continues. I migrated via MAC smoothly after switching my line. I have emails here stating the 63p has been paid and stating my account is now clear, the 63p has gone from my bank, but Plusnet state I still owe it.
Account username: xxxxxxxx

Thank you for clearing the outstanding balance on your
PlusNet Residential Generic Services Product account. Your account has now been reactivated.

All of your account's features will be reactivated now, although it
may take up to 30 minutes until all of these are available for you
to use.
I spotted mention of a cease fee on my Plusnet account a few days ago, http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/5269/charge.jpg so as my account was cleared I stopped my direct debits.
Imagine my anger at receiving this email this morning, bearing in ming they still owe me £9 for overpaid broadband.
We have recently attempted to process a subscription payment for your Plusnet account, but have unfortunately been unable to take payment using the payment details currently held on your account. Because of a processing error, your account will have been marked as paid on 11th July when you make your regular payment, but in fact no payment was received.

We have now correctly marked the invoice on your account as unpaid, and would ask that you please contact us as soon as possible to make payment. To discuss making this payment with a member of our dedicated Billing Support team please ring 0845 1400 104. If you are currently experiencing difficulty in paying this outstanding amount, please contact us to discuss.

Please note that in recognition of your valued custom we have not currently restricted your internet service, however if payment is not received within 14 days of the payment failing then we will be forced to do so.


Yours sincerely,

As you see, the poor demented souls are considering cutting off my broadband!
Would you waste a phone call on this shower when you can post the incompetence here?
Actually, my regular payment date was always the 25th, so I don't know where they get the 11th from. possibly it was a cash-grab that baulked the system!

Edited by professor973 (Wed 18-Jul-12 11:53:47)

I expect it was the refund, paid back through the d/d system. But of course it couldn't be, as you had stopped it. Which is why I advised against that. Any payments incorrectly taken are easily rceovered, but the inability to receive refunds leads to a nightmare. With any ISP. One of the problems is they almost certainly cannot reinstate the d/d, and neither can you.

I repeat, having seen many cases on these forums, that's why I advised against it.

The wording of the stock email I agree is poor. It should be a different one for failed refunds.

What was going on with the 63p I know not.

Would you waste a phone call on this shower when you can post the incompetence here?

If Plusnet were not one of the very few ISPs that regularly act on posts here, you would have little choice.

IIRC the cease fee mention is a standard item that is cancelled if the migration took place with a MAC being used. If the MAC were not used the cease is sometimes charged by Openreach due to incorrect ordering processes at the receiving ISP. This is passed on to the ex-customer by all ISPs.

I assume that Freeola did follow the correct ordering procedure from Openreach - I've never heard of them not doing.

I realized your advice against cancelling the DD was good advice and I did not do that at the time. BUT, once I was informed of my account being cleared, I would consider cancelling a dead DD a very good idea. It was the mention of a cease fee that prompted the cancellation at the time I did. Possibly I did not understand it correctly, but it put my guard up immediately. I was not to know that the account cleared email was just another of a long line of cock-ups, though judging by the threat of Broadband cutoff for non payment, it seems Plusnet just chuck out pre-prepared crib-sheets without referring to what the situation actually is. I am obviously unlucky, as if all customers suffered my long tale of woe there would be none left.

It's possible that BT Wholesale have failed to inform Plusnet that your migration away has happened hence the Plusnet systems think you are still one of their users.

In reply to a post by jelv:

It's possible that BT Wholesale have failed to inform Plusnet that your migration away has happened hence the Plusnet systems think you are still one of their users.

The Broadband element of my account has long gone on my account page. Possibly some connection between the left and right hand is needed.

Unfortunately in this case it was an error on our part, however one of the billing team has picked up on this already and credited off the 63p so it's all sorted out now - I should probably add that this was done earlier today without any sort of intervention from ourselves.

I'm sorry about the ticket though, that's being addressed.

In reply to a post by orbrey:

Unfortunately in this case it was an error on our part, however one of the billing team has picked up on this already and credited off the 63p so it's all sorted out now - I should probably add that this was done earlier today without any sort of intervention from ourselves.

I'm sorry about the ticket though, that's being addressed.

Thanks for your reply Matthew. I did in the end phone the requested number, though it was only to tell some unlucky soul they could whistle for anything deemed outstanding, so it may have been my intervention.
It has been one very bumpy ride for me. You may remember being a help to me last year when switching to PN resulted in me being connected to another persons line and number, with switching back losing BB for a week.
Keep up your good work, as I am not sure where PN would be without the likes of you that venture here and give good service.

In reply to a post by professor973:

so as my account was cleared I stopped my direct debits. Imagine my anger at receiving this email this morning, bearing in ming they still owe me £9 for overpaid broadband.

Very foolish cancelling DD while you are owed money. How earth did you think they were going to get it to you?

Very foolish cancelling DD while you are owed money. How earth did you think they were going to get it to you?

Possibly I am wrong, after all I have been told I am often enough here, but as far as I know, a Direct Debit is only needed to remove money from an account, not to put money in. I am not worried if I never see the £9, I am not that strapped for cash.
From fsa.gov.uk:-
A direct debit is an arrangement where you give a company or individual (known as the �originator�) permission to take money regularly from your account.

Under the Direct Debit Guarantee Scheme, the originator must tell you in advance if there is a change in the amount or date of the payment. You are guaranteed a full and immediate refund if the originator or your bank, makes an error.

You can cancel a direct debit by writing to your bank or using your internet or telephone banking service. It is a good idea to also notify the originator.

Edited by professor973 (Wed 18-Jul-12 17:52:55)

Taking money from your a/c includes taking negative amounts

Which will occur when they took too much in the 1st place for whatever reason; error or, as in your case, advance estimated payments ("You are guaranteed a full and immediate refund if the originator or your bank, makes an error").

I am currently expecting 2 refunds of my fuel bills from British Gas on leaving them having paid more by DD than fuel costs consumed. I expect them to be paid on my usual DD date and shall not cancel the DD until I see the amounts credited to my bank.

Refunds of amounts taken by d/d seem normally, (every ISP I have seen and also non-broadband companies), to be done via the d/d system, not via BACS.

The same with credit card debits that require a refund.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Refunds of amounts taken by d/d seem normally, (every ISP I have seen and also non-broadband companies), to be done via the d/d system, not via BACS.

The same with credit card debits that require a refund.

Quite possibly, but the amount is still marked on my PN account as a credit note, which is usually something that needs to be claimed or deducted off the next bill. That is probably why there is no sign of it moving along. This is no surprise as PN accounts seemed to think they are still supplying Broadband. But no worry, I will happily wave the few bounds goodbye just to finally get away from such organized confusion.

Very foolish cancelling DD while you are owed money. How earth did you think they were going to get it to you?

Like this:- http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/4864/refundeb.jpg As I said, a Direct Debit mandate is not required to pay money into an account. Just the same as paying money into a bank, with authorisation only required for withdrawals. I look forward to your apology. {;� }

In reply to a post by professor973:

Very foolish cancelling DD while you are owed money. How earth did you think they were going to get it to you?

Like this:- http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/4864/refundeb.jpg As I said, a Direct Debit mandate is not required to pay money into an account. Just the same as paying money into a bank, with authorisation only required for withdrawals. I look forward to your apology. {;� }

The operative word there is the the DD mandate is not REQUIRED, it doesn't say anything about refunds not being paid back via the DD mandate in fact in case of a mistake they will be paid back via that system.

In fact what has most likely happened is that a repayment would have taken the details from the DD mandate ie sort code and acc number and BACS the money back to you all automatically via a repayment system.

By cancelling the DD mandate Plusnet have most likely been required to remove the bank details from their computer (data protection and FSA regs dpring to mind) or put them somewhere in a non active state and so the repayment computer doesn't know where the money is to go and so the repayment fails.

Of course now the repayment will now have to be handled manually by a back office staff mamber and that depends now on how busy they are and what system they have to manually process payments.

I agree with the fact that you need to keep DD tidy on your bank account but never cancel one while money is still being tallyed up.

I don't know about being addressed, as far as I am concerned Plusnet should be towed out to sea and sunk. Without doubt,not just the worst ISP I have encountered, but the worst company.
I have long since ceased darkening your doorstep, could you please stop darkening mine. In plain English, get out of my life, cancel any remnants of my account that Plusnet seem to think exist, then desist sending such drivel as I received today.

"Account username: xxxxxxxxxx

We are emailing you as we've noticed that you don't have any payment
details setup for your account. You need to set these up now, otherwise
this will affect your Plusnet service or services.
What you should do now
----------------------
For your convenience why not set up a Direct Debit to pay for your
account? This is quick and easy to do, plus there's no need to confirm
regular payments or update your details. Setup a Direct Debit by visiting
My Account:
http://portal.plus.net/my.html?action=direct_debit
When you do this we also suggest that you store Secondary payment details
for your account (e.g. a credit or debit card). Doing this means that if we
can't take your subscription using Direct Debit for any reason you'll still
be able to pay for your services. You'll also have no interruption to your
service.
Need help?
----------
If you've got any questions about your service use the Help Assistant -
http://portal.plus.net/wizard/
Kind regards,
Plusnet Customer Support
http://portal.plus.net/
Email ref: E0315
--
Plusnet plc
Registered Office: The Balance, 2 Pinfold Street, Sheffield, S1 2GU
Registered in England no: 3279013

Hi there,

That's now been cancelled for you, sorry about that. It's an automated email that is sent to any account holder that doesn't have active payment details on the account (though I realise it's pointless for yourself or on an account that's scheduled to cancel). I'll have a word internally and see if we can put a check in place to stop this happening to any other users.

Chill

Methinks he doth protest too much!

I am hoping that at long last I now can. Feet up with a cold tinny seems as good place as any to start [8 �}

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

Methinks he doth protest too much!

And Methinkth they doth thpew cwibtheeth too much¡¡¡