21CN new broadband connections

No doubt Bob and Jelv can answer this one. My exchange is 21cn enabled. A small business I work with has a PN business account which has obviously been upgraded, if the increased speed is anything to go by. A neighbour of mine on the same exchange was looking to move from Sky to a 21cn connection.

I suggested he try Plusnet. When he put his phone number in the checker he was informed his estimated speed would be 8Mb. He currently gets 11000 to 12000Mb with Sky. How would he get the increased speed with PN?

The checker is just an estimate, assuming ADSL2+ is supplied then it could go above 8Meg if the line manages it.

In short the checker does not limit potential speed, but is just an pre-sales estimate of what the line may achieve

I understand that, I was just wondering if all new broadband only connections are put onto 21cn, which can supply a faster speed than plain ADSL.

Modulation: G.992.5 Annex A
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 782 / 13,309
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [MB/MB]: 83.20 / 758.11
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 10.5 / 8.5
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 16.5 / 32.0
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 8.5 / 6.0
Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / ÿµGS
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Link (Remote): 0
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 469 / 0
FEC Errors (Up/Down): 359 / 272,051,108
CRC Errors (Up/Down): 241 / 1,129
HEC Errors (Up/Down): 436 / 1,046

Edit to add line stats.

Edited by wingco1 (Fri 13-Jul-12 14:27:53)

He'll be put on 21CN by default. The only time it doesn't happen is when a user is on BT based fixed or ADSL Max service with another ISP migrates in. They will migrate like for like but then can ask for an immediate upgrade to 21CN.

Assuming those are his stats, is he on Sky LLU with a non-LLU line, or Sky Connect? He's already on ADSL2+.

Edited by RobertoS (Fri 13-Jul-12 14:50:35)

Apparently he's on Sky LLU Unlimited with a BT phone line. He got it that way before the requirement to have Sky Talk as well.

Should be fine with PN then. As long as the traffic management and 60GB cap aren't issues. He won't be used to either of those, and his connection speed difference will be marginal.

Does he realise that 21CN is just BT Wholesale catching up and providing ADSL2+? I would have thought most people would want to transfer PN > Sky, not Sky > PN.

Thanks for that Bob. I've just been and explained to him what you have said. He was under the impression his speed would increase quite a lot. FTTC is due in our Exchange by the end of September this year, so I've suggested he wait until then before deciding to change.

Beware of the PN 21CN upstream cap at 448K - could be a hassle to get it un-capped.

In that case he's definitely better off staying with Sky for the time being.

http://www.coolwebhome.co.uk/calc/calculator.php

Now gives 9db, 6dB and 3dB figures
9dB 9119 Kbps
6dB13309 Kbps
3dB 19424 Kbps

But looking at the error stats I'd be very shocked it performed that well down at 3dB target margin, errors may negate the extra sync speed, or make it too unstable.

Upstream is usually better under WBC compared to Sky LLU due to the DLM

1. Lines with a reasonable speed expectation are not capped.

2. Getting the cap removed is usually very easy.

In reply to a post by jelv:

1. Lines with a reasonable speed expectation are not capped.

2. Getting the cap removed is usually very easy.

Thanks for that info jelv

PN sales gave me a different story a few weeks ago - guess I must have been talking to the wrong person!

Did you get it sorted? If not post your stats (sync speed, attenuation and noise margin) and we'll see if there is a reason they said no.

In reply to a post by jelv:

Did you get it sorted? If not post your stats (sync speed, attenuation and noise margin) and we'll see if there is a reason they said no.

No didn't get it sorted, I only gave them my phone number and post code.

Quoted estimated line speed was 8Mbps, but when I asked about the upstream sync a cap of 448K for 21CN appeared to be all that they could offer unless it needed un-capping due to any technical issues - or something like that

Current partial LLU stats (uno SMPF):

Uptime: 9 days, 6:38:48

DSL Type: G.992.5 annex A

Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 1.022 / 13.107

Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 21,0 / 37,0

SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 10,5 / 6,5

Interleaved.

Downstream throughput always ~11Mbps

......................................................................................

Previous adsl1 stats from last year (PN extra + pro):

Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 832 (upstream uncapped) / 8128

Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 20.5 / 34

SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 9 / 9.5

Interleaved.

IP 7000K - downstream throughput was usually ~6500K


Reason for my enquiry was because my exchange has recently been upgraded to 21CN and a switch from uno partial LLU to PN might save a few quid.

Looking at those stats I'd be surprised if they capped you and if they did there would be no issue getting it uncapped. There was misinformation circulating some time ago about uncapping upstream slowing downstream (confusion with Annex M?) and there is a slight possibility on very long lines that might be true.

Don't think I want to take a chance with PN and their ticketing system just yet - unless the upstream sync is uncapped from the onset, which xilo/uno do with 21CN, think I'll stay with uno SMPF a bit longer. In the mean time I'll check how 21CN is performing at my exchange and since it's a Market 2 exchange Plusnet might be a good choice in the future.

Thanks for your help jelv

In reply to a post by 4M2:

.... In the mean time I'll check how 21CN is performing at my exchange and since it's a Market 2 exchange Plusnet might be a good choice in the future.

?
Only individual ISP performances are relevant. Except in very exceptional circumstances performance on BT Wholesale products is a function of the ISP end, not the exchange end.

Bob,

Relative to previous adsl1 performances a few folks who have gone to 21CN adsl2+ at my exchange are unfortunately somewhat disappointed with their sync speeds despite only slight increases in attenuation and SNRM's being good - would that only be ISP related?

I'd say it was quite normal given the lack of knowledge of the general public about what they should be getting on ADSL(1) and how to improve it. Even how to find out is not common knowledge. Just subjective experience of how quickly web pages load. Which anyway is largely connection-speed independent below 8Mbps.

Anyone connecting below 6Mbps on ADSL, which I guess is the majority, is not going to get any significant downstream improvement on ADSL2+. They will gain on upstream.

See this graph, which is a good, though not infallible, guide.

We get large numbers of posters here who we are able to raise from around "average" to near the maximum. When estimating ADSL2+ from ADSL using it, the possible attenuation increase of 3dB has to be considered.

Thanks for that Bob.

You know a great deal more about exchange kit than I do (well actually I know nothing ) but would 21CN conservatively apply a lower sync in the interests of stability compared to LLU?

Would I, for instance, expect much of a drop in downstream sync from currently 13107K with an attenuation of 37dB, a SNRM of 6.5dB and interleaved if changing from LLU to 21CN?

There's a few "ifs" involved in answering that .

On initial connection to WBC, (which is the proper name for 21CN broadband, to distinguish it from 21CN PSTN - phone), I would expect about the same sync. But you would possibly get a small drop in throughput due to the IP Profile.

As well as the IP Profile you also lose a little throughput speed due to the ATM overheads between you and the exchange. You lose that on LLU as well as it's simply the way the TCP/IP data packets are encapsulated on non-digital (analogue) circuits. I can't speak for Sky LLU, but on O2/Be LLU the throughput is around 84% of sync.

On WBC there is the possibility that the DLM will raise the sync-time noise margin if the line proves unstable or has high error rates. That will lower the sync. I don't think the Sky one does, eben if it isn't switched off after a few days. O2/Be DLM is switched of after about 3 days from migration in, but the WBC DLM runs all the time you are connected.

On the other hand, if the line proves to be stable, the WBC DLM wil lower the sync-time noise margin to 3dB. That gives a big increase in sync speed. 1Mbps or more.

I think that covers most of it .

Edited by RobertoS (Sat 14-Jul-12 00:09:58)

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

On WBC there is the possibility that the DLM will raise the sync-time noise margin if the line proves unstable or has high error rates. I don't think the Sky one does, eben if it isn't switched off after a few days. O2/Be DLM is switched of after about 3 days from migration in, but the WBC DLM runs all the time you are connected.

On the other hand, if the line proves to be stable, the WBC DLM wil lower the sync-time noise margin to 3dB. That gives a big increase in sync speed. 1Mbps or more.

Just popped in for a peek. Had a couple of whiskys watching the Last Night of the Proms...

Egads, tis Friday night!

Sorry.

I watched most of the prom. Didn't think it was up to much. I shall tell Mark next time I'm talking to him.

I did expect the conductors to pas the baton, given the hype about it in the runup over the last few days .

That certainly does cover it

But what about this: http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/max_speed_calc.php - if I put in say a downstream attenuation of 34dB then BT 21CN WBC syncs at 12352K with an IP Profile of 10894K yet LLU syncs at the same rate but throughput is 10932K, wouldn't throughput with 21CN WBC be less than the IP Profile?

Certainly I always noticed that with adsl1 throughput was generally ~500K less than the IP Profile which may be significant on a longish line or is that an irrelevance with adsl2+?

Eeeek!

Two things there.

First, I agree with you in a way. In fact I think you understate the losses after the IP Profile is taken into account. But I feel you are possibly still slightly confused - not surprising, as it's a complex subject to pick up.

On any given attenuation I would expect higher throughput from an LLU provider who is using a 6dB or 7dB target noise margin, than on BT Wholesale circuits. At one time some used 9dB, which would be slower.

The IP Profile is specific to BT Wholesale circuits. It is used on ADSL Max/IPStream (20CN), IPSC, and on WBC/WBMC (21CN). I'd be very surprised to see reliable speed tests of throughput, (so I'm excluding speedtest.net which is inherently biased to reporting speeds towards the peak during a very short test), showing more than 90% of the IP Profile.

I always thought Newnet a few years ago were very good. I expected 70+% of profile. Zen, IDNet and AAISP were probably better.

Even more contentious is the difference between speed tests and real-life file and burst data transfer. The BT speed test for instance, (when it isn't having a hissy fit of total instability as seen over the last few weeks), seems to set up an uncontended path from the BT server to the ISP's router. Thus eliminating the ISP's links to the rest of the world. I might add that I think that is the right thing to do, as it tests the link between the ISP and you. No other speed test can do that.

LLU is in general ADSL2+, but is occasionally capped at 8Mbps sync. The relationship between sync and throughput is independent of whether ADSL or ADSL2+ is in use, on either BTW or LLU, but on BTW is of course affected by the IP Profile. The IP Profile tries to reflect a data speed, in that it absorbs a lot of the overheads that cause the drop on LLU lines to about 84% of sync.

Second:-

If I summon up the will-power I shall contact kitz about that page. There are a number of things that aren't obvious on it which to me make it a dangerous reference. That rather takes me aback as I have always regarded kitz and samknows as far ahead of me in technical knowledge, and on my own website recommend them for more in-depth information than I provide there. It's the content of the page that is dodgy, not the underlying expertise of kitz.

It looks as though it has been hurriedly produced from an earlier version, that earlier version being designed to estimate the speed increase people may get on moving from ADSL to ADSL2+.

In it's current incarnation the stand-alone statement "Rate adaptive DSL also makes use of any spare SNR Margin therefore the higher your SNR Margin, then the better your speeds will be" is simply untrue. In fact on a third or fourth reading becomes gibberish. It is true only in the rare circumstance of an ADSL(1) user on 8128kbps Fast Path or 8128/7616kbps Interleaved who is moving to BT WB(M)C or LLU.

It also assumes Interleaving is on for ADSL Max.

The graph linked to at the bottom is a very similar concept to the one I gave you, and one of the mainstays of his calculator. Also see this alternative, (MrSaffron), which I often use as a backup to the graph.

I'm on 20CN. speedtest.net results vary between 6.72 and 6.98 so I'm seeing less than 500 drop from my 7150 profile.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

In it's current incarnation the stand-alone statement "Rate adaptive DSL also makes use of any spare SNR Margin therefore the higher your SNR Margin, then the better your speeds will be" is simply untrue. In fact on a third or fourth reading becomes gibberish. It is true only in the rare circumstance of an ADSL(1) user on 8128kbps Fast Path or 8128/7616kbps Interleaved who is moving to BT WB(M)C or LLU.

It also assumes Interleaving is on for ADSL Max.

My interpretation of that statement (& what I have sort of seen in practice) is that when SNRM is high, a forced resync at that time usually produces higher sync speeds (unless capped by DLM or an ISP/BT), but SNRM is immediately lowered as the "spare" margin has then been used up to deliver the higher sync speed.

My observations have been on my FTTC/VDSL2 connection, but it does use much of the technology of ADSL2+.
Indeed it is supposedly backwardly compatible with ADSL2+.

I have also seen this effect in graphs from ADSL2 & ADSL2+ users' connections.

Edited by deleted (Sat 14-Jul-12 10:06:15)

In reply to a post by Bald_Eagle1:

My interpretation of that statement (& what I have sort of seen in practice) is that when SNRM is high, a forced resync at that time usually produces higher sync speeds (unless capped by DLM or an ISP/BT), but SNRM is immediately lowered as the "spare" margin has then been used up to deliver the higher sync speed.

I've also seen that on my FTTC connection (not with Plusnet).

But OR's DLM on FTTC seems more benign than BTw's on ADSL, and a period (10-14 days?) of high SNRM after some event that caused the line to drop will result in the DLM initiating a resync on its own initiative.

You are misinterpreting what is going on. You are just talking about the effect on speed of re-sync'ing when for some reason you have an abnormally high noise margin.

You are thinking of cases (1) and (2) on this page. The kitz quote is specifically about case (3), which I was trying to explain in the context of that post.

Great stuff Bob - that really clarifies things

Just one thing about http://www2.farina1.com/ADSL/default.aspx or http://www.coolwebhome.co.uk/calc/calculator.php is that they don't differentiate between 21CN WBC and LLU. It would be the extent of the drop in performance due to the IP Profile on an adsl2+ line that would really be of interest to me in the context of this thread.

Of course it's very difficult to judge differences in throughput speed since the BT speedtester doesn't work on a LLU'ed line which for me, when previously on ADSL Max/IPStream (20CN), gave the most reliable results. However you say that 84% of downstream sync speed on a LLU line would be a good estimate of throughput and I can certainly verify that from my own partial LLU connection using the TBB speed tester.

Guess I need to find somebody with a downstream 37dB attenuation, 6dB SNRM and ~13107K sync on 21CN and run a few TBB speed tests in order to make a comparison...

Edited by 4M2 (Sat 14-Jul-12 12:26:20)

In reply to a post by jelv:

I'm on 20CN. speedtest.net results vary between 6.72 and 6.98 so I'm seeing less than 500 drop from my 7150 profile.

Yes, but that's speedtest.net, I saw ~500K less than the IP Profile with the BT speed tester

Regarding SNRM, which I find almost incomprehensible, could, for example, an upstream sync be improved by an ISP changing it?

When I was on adsl1 with Plusnet I had the upstream sync un-capped to 832K and at that time the SNRM changed to 9dB from 21dB - was it just by the ISP somehow changing the upstream SNRM that the upstream sync went from 448K to 832K?

We normally only bother about downstream SNRM (explained here). But yes, the change from 448 to 832 upstream is why the SNRM dropped. The same reason as high downstream SNRM being expected on 8128/7616 ADSL sync.

On non-LLU you/ISPs have a choice of up to 448kbps or up to 832kbps from BT Wholesale on ADSL, and apparently the ISP can also limit it to 448kbps on ADSL2+. (Plusnet do this by default). The norm on ADSL2+ is uncapped, so does whatever it can up to around 1.3Mbps - the maximum possible on the standard Annex A.

Still on non-LLU, Annex M is now available on ADSL2+, providing up to 2.5Mbps upstream on good enough lines. The rule of thumb I apply is that if the downstream sync is less than 16Mbps, then on a change to Annex M you lose 2.5Mbps downstream and are unlikely to get any increase in upstream. (For simple reasons technical reasons). From 16Mbps to 20Mbps downstream sync you get progressively increasing upstream and decreasing loss of downstream. At an original downstream sync around 20Mbps, or above, you get the original downstream and full 2.5Mbps upstream.

On LLU on O2/Be the upstream is uncapped. The 16Mbps rule applies wrt Annex M. I'm unsure how Sky and TT run things.

Edited by RobertoS (Sat 14-Jul-12 13:43:04)

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

On non-LLU you/ISPs have a choice of up to 448kbps or up to 832kbps from BT Wholesale on ADSL, and apparently the ISP can also limit it to 448kbps on ADSL2+. (Plusnet do this by default).

This is supposed to have changed although there are still a few reports of it being capped

This is really interesting: leaving aside Annex M, the only thing stopping the maximum possible sync, either upstream or downstream is the SNRM. Yet with adsl1 the upstream is generally capped at 448K, due to a high SNRM, even though the line could support 832K.

With LLU it's necessary to contact the ISP to get the SNRM changed (?) although with 21CN the exchange kit can negotiate a downstream SNRM of 3dB if the line proves stable enough to support it and hence a higher sync without the intervention of the end user - seems like 21CN WBC might well be a better option if one has a good, relatively noise free, line despite any possible lower throughput due to the IP Profile.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

On LLU on O2/Be the upstream is uncapped. The 16Mbps rule applies wrt Annex M. I'm unsure how Sky and TT run things.

Upstream on Sky is capped, either by DLM or manually-applied line profiles.

On a decent line, and catching Tier 2 or DLM on a good day, 1,150 kbps should be achievable. Tier 1 typically cap it at 768 kbps.

In reply to a post by 4M2:

With LLU it's necessary to contact the ISP to get the SNRM changed (?) although with 21CN the exchange kit can negotiate a downstream SNRM of 3dB if the line proves stable enough to support it and hence a higher sync without the intervention of the end user - seems like 21CN WBC might well be a better option if one has a good, relatively noise free, line despite any possible lower throughput due to the IP Profile.

Surprisingly, Sky's DLM is now using a 3 dB noise margin on downstream if it thinks the line is good enough.

Another aspect with Sky's line profiles are that they can alter the power output. Traditionally, one would look at spare noise margin to see how much extra a line has in the tank. As Sky attenuate the power output, lower than optimum synch speeds can be reported with a low margin, so it may look like the line is at it's maximum even when it isn't. It makes troubleshooting that much harder, especially when you consider the Sky router does not report power output.

Edited by Oliver341 (Sat 14-Jul-12 14:44:27)

Oh, don't know anything about power output except that maybe it's normally at max with adsl2+???

My TG585v7 gives these numbers : Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 12,0 / 19,5 with adsl2+ 21/37dB attenuations, currently 10 / 5.5dB SNRM's and 1.022 / 13.107dB sync's. Would that be considered max power?

In reply to a post by 4M2:

Oh, don't know anything about power output except that maybe it's normally at max with adsl2+???

I suppose that depends on the ISP.

My TG585v7 gives these numbers : Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 12,0 / 19,5 with adsl2+ 21/37dB attenuations, currently 10 / 5.5dB SNRM's and 1.022 / 13.107dB sync's. Would that be considered max power?

Looks a pretty normal output power, yeah.

THe anomaly with the Kitz checker is that you put in your attenuation and it "calculates" the distance from the exchange. Kitz tells me I'm 2.8km from my exchange but I know it really is only 1.6km by road.

This indicates that the quality of my line is rather less than it could be. Cannot compare with neighbours as most are on expensive cable but it is another factor in the search for greater sped although I am quite happy with what I get.

Calculating distance by attenuation is much more accurate than guessing the route of the copper, which never follows the same route as the road, as the crow flies or otherwise.

Where I used to live I was less than 100 yards from the exchange by road. However I know that I was fed from a cabinet 1/4 mile in the other direction and that my line length was well over 1/2 a mile.

Guess you have tried the normal things such as optimising your internal wiring and using different filters etc. ?

I certainly improved downstream sync and stability by using a filtered faceplate and a cat5 rj11 adsl cable, not by a great amount when I was on adsl1 but it may be more significant now that I'm on adsl2+

Very true Professor.

I live 200m from exchange but my line turns right instead of left as it exits the Exchange and does a 2km tour of town before it hits my Cabinet opposite the house. Therefore I end up with an attenuation figure of 29 and a sync speed of 14385ish!!

WelshWArrior,

Just out of interest what is your downstream SNR margin and I guess your adsl2+ connection is interleaved?

Also did you initially have any problems with PN capping your upstream sync?

Hey 4M2

I'm at work right now but I checked my Router Stats last night and it was 6.5. The connection is still interleaved - not had it switched off. The upstream was initially capped but that's default for all accounts until you request it to be uncapped.

It only took a couple of hours to get uncapped.

Thanks for the info

No probs - if I remember I'll post my full router stats later on

Cheers - thinking of a possible move (back) to PN (30 day minimum term) myself on a Market 2, 21CN WBC enabled exchange, just don't want any hassle getting the upstream sync uncapped though. Might go for line rental also since BT offshore call centres can be a nightmare when it comes to getting any issues sorted out...

To help put your mind at rest, uncapping the u/s was no issue for me. I just sent in the request via the portal, it was acknowledged within 12hrs and happened the next day.

ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 6870 kbps 888 kbps
Line Attenuation 50.5 db 24.7 db
Noise Margin 4.2 db 9.1 db

That's still capped though. Should be 1Mbps+ on that attenuation.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

That's still capped though. Should be 1Mbps+ on that attenuation.

Uncapped PN adsl1 upstream for me was previously 832K - so 888K is a bit faster

As Roberto said - it should be above that. Mine sync's at about 1055Mbps ish!

Can't see where the hassle is that you've heard of in uncapping the upload. I didn't even start a ticket - it was all done from here by a CS rep

888kbps is the maximum uncapped value when the upstream is interleaved

I disagree there Jim. Mine is interleaved and sync'd at 1055ish.

Speedtests give me over 1Mbps uploads consistently as you can see from my sig.

I said upstream interleaved that is separate from downstream interleaved

My Router says the connection is interleaved. Does that only apply to the download then?

Usually it does.
On my Netgear I can only find out the upstream interleave depth via a telnet command

Thanks to all who contributed, very interesting. My connection is certainly on interleave because it was very unstable with the original fastpath setting. Interleave sorted that out straight away. I'll have 888 and stable over 1.0Mb unstable every time!

Cheers

Andrew

In reply to a post by Oldjim:

888kbps is the maximum uncapped value when the upstream is interleaved

That's interesting - so if any significant upstream instability is detected then interleaving would be applied and the max upstream sync would be 888K. This being independent of downstream interleaving depths?

In reply to a post by WelshWArrior:

Can't see where the hassle is that you've heard of in uncapping the upload. I didn't even start a ticket - it was all done from here by a CS rep

All I can say is that PN sales were rather vague and negative about upstream uncapping, when I called them, which didn't inspire much confidence

In reply to a post by atsw:

To help put your mind at rest, uncapping the u/s was no issue for me. I just sent in the request via the portal, it was acknowledged within 12hrs and happened the next day.

Sounds good

That is correct
One my line the downstream interleaving depth is reported as 32 and the upstream depth reported as 4

I promised my stats somewhere up above so here they are:

Link Information
Uptime: 14 days, 10:42:13

DSL Type: G.992.5 annex A

Maximum Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 1,168 / 15,196
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 1,183 / 14,584
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [GB/GB] .35 / 23.27
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 12.0 / 20.0
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 17.0 / 29.5
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 6.0 / 5.5
Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / IFTN
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 3 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Link (Remote): 0
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 65,972 / 0
FEC Errors (Up/Down): 306,137 / 0
CRC Errors (Up/Down): 23,924 / 47,962
HEC Errors (Up/Down): NA / 176,749

In reply to a post by camieabz:

Just popped in for a peek. Had a couple of whiskys watching the Last Night of the Proms

Oi!

I'll report you to Andrew for spelling the plural of "whisky" wrong.

And ...




... it was the First Night of the Proms.



A couple of LARGE whiskies?

I don't know which night it was...whisky can have that effect.

In reply to a post by camieabz:

I don't know which night it was...

Friday the 13^th!