Plusnet unlimited?

Is Plusnet Unlimited subject to any traffic management on P2P??

Yes, it's in the "bronze" priority queue.

http://community.plus.net/blog/2012/12/21/its-unlimi...

If you mean "is it slowed down so you can't download at peak", then no.

In reply to a post by KellyD:

If you mean "is it slowed down so you can't download at peak", then no.

I'm not aware of any ISP that reduces p2p speeds to 0 kbps at peak.

http://www.cap.org.uk/Media-Centre/2012/~/media/File...

Where they affect download speeds, for the downloading of large files on peer-to-peer protocols,
for instance, providers should be able to demonstrate that the effect of a traffic management
policy or mechanism is not beyond what consumers would reasonably expect.

At the same time, consumers generally understand that the speed of the internet varies during
the day and that speeds are naturally slower during periods of the day that attract the greatest
number of online users. If the provider can demonstrate that the effect of traffic management is
not dissimilar to the �slow down� generally experienced, the restriction is likely to be considered
moderate.

So, unless we are having problems without capacity forecasting, or a balance issue, you shouldn't see it much drop below your line speed. If it does drop, that is likely to be your own local contention, or we've cocked something up.

It's designed to not slow.

Clear enough?

Yes, although it's a shame CAP use vague language like "beyond what consumers would reasonably expect".

Also, I previously asked what the "minimum bandwidth allowance" was on this page. http://www.plus.net/support/broadband/speed_guide/tr...

In the context of "What this means: at busy times, higher priority queues will take bandwidth from the lowest queue(s) currently in use (but never enough to take the lower queue below its minimum bandwidth allowance)."

It implies that there is some kind of safety net for best effort and bronze traffic, in terms of low speed, but no actual figure.

I raise this as some years ago I was with a horrible package from Plusnet called "Broadband Plus" with variable traffic management. Essentially, when a user exceeded unpublished limits, Plusnet would throttle all traffic to unpublished speeds. What this meant is that http could be throttled to 128 kbit/sec for exceeding 5 GB usage. The sales literature said "no need to keep track of how much you download" (presumably they thought 128 kbit/s speeds weren't an issue)!. Support staff repeatedly refused to give any kind of usage guidelines to avoid crippling speeds, and customers were locked in for a year.

The heated discussions about this package are still in your forum archive, and the revised product description, which was changed after some pretty bitter arguments, is also in your product archive.

And yes, I accept this was some time ago (end '05 early '06) and Plusnet is a different company these days, but it's not something I'll forget quickly, as it's by far the worst experience I've had with an ISP to date. Some of the same names are still around though, I remember Ben Brown advocating the product.

See http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/plusnet/t/4196738-r... and http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/plusnet/t/4191367-r...

I.e. PN has decided that if we get it all wrong and we have to choose something to slow down, we'll slow the stuff which is more tolerant of being slowed. Slowing web/streaming = badness. Slowing torrents/usenet = slower downloads, but they'll still come down.

If you don't like that option the Pro add-on allows you to override it (but has some trade-offs, which if you are making that call you are probably happier with )

We've built it this way because we think it addresses what the average and the majority user needs. The experts should have enough information to be able to make their own call.

Sorry if I'm coming across a bit forceful on this, but I feel it's important for people to really understand what we mean by Traffic Management. This is not the rate limits you have on PN Extra, Value, or the old Premier and Plus products, and we've put more bandwidth to mean that bronze != slow.

I'm hearing ya

In reply to a post by KellyD:

PN has decided that if we get it all wrong and we have to choose something to slow down, we'll slow the stuff which is more tolerant of being slowed.

The back-pedalling begins.

Where? Kelly's trying to explain how the traffic management works in real life situations, there's no back-pedalling.

I object to that. I've tried to make this very clear a number of times.

If we mess up on our forecasting and don't have enough bandwidth, what would you want to happen?

I can't see what you object to. It's perfectly clear.

Perfectly clear, but unwarranted mud-slinging, when someone from PN is explaining in clear terms how it differs from the rate-limiting which exists on the older accounts.

It's some years now but I remember finding USENET unusable (cannot remember the account type I was on, but non-PN USENET servers were slowed down so much my connection to Astraweb or APN was slowed down until it wold time out, even between 03:00 and 05:00 !)

In around 48 hours from switching to 'unlimited' I downloaded some 50-60 GB, a chunk of that via peer-to-peer. Anyway, unless you're using PN and have tried the unlimited account, I guess you will remain unconvinced that it's no longer 'crippled' at times. Not going to get into an argument, but I'm guessing you no longer use PN.

In reply to a post by ultra:

... but I'm guessing you no longer use PN.

LOL.
I gather he has more than one non-PN connection, but certainly has the (known to be) crippled Infinity.

Edit - I don't mean the publicised "busy period" P2P download throttling Infinity has. I mean the non-publicised P2P upstream 24/7 throttling that several users have detected. Giving the same effect.

Edited by RobertoS (Tue 22-Jan-13 11:56:12)

In reply to a post by KellyD:

Pro add-on allows you to override it (but has some trade-offs, which if you are making that call you are probably happier with )

We've built it this way because we think it addresses what the average and the majority user needs. The experts should have enough information to be able to make their own call.

Would you mind enlightening, us who don't know What exactly are these trade-offs,?I mean you buy this pro add on, So surely there should be no negatives . otherwise the buying of the pro add-on maybe seen as a,tad pointless,from a customers viewpoint
ie,It should override all shaping not only some

This is an example - if you are downloading a file which saturates your connection then streaming a video or VOIP won't work properly
Basically - everything on your connection has equal priority so that if you are trying to stream a video on your computer and your teenage son is busy downloading a game patch on his PS3 you are liable to be stuffed

I'm not convinced the traffic management at PN end is even enough for that.
You could have p2p stuffing your VOIP call for example, unless you do a similar management from your end to control the p2p's upload.
But I would agree that a properly managed traffic management would make things work better than something completely unmanaged.

I agree about the upload problem - I had my browsing really stuffed with an unlimited P2P upload but that is relatively easy to fix as you should always restrict the upload speed of any P2P connnection

I've been on Plusnet Unlimited since late December. Everything runs at line speed all the time.

Our traffic management can only control the downstream traffic, from us to the router - because we can only affect the traffic as it flows through our network. There'd be no point doing it to upstream traffic because by the time it hits our network it's already been through your router and had whatever effects it's already going to.

In agree with that and I wasn't criticising your traffic management, and that's why I said "something ... at your end (i.e. the customer's end in this context) to control upload"

Yes, that's easily done if you are doing the p2p. If it's the teenage son on the other hand, you may decide some measures he can't control are needed

Someone in my team is having a look at some router side QoS rules to help with this. Obviously, you need a compatible router for it....

That would complement the existing system nicely...
But don't do that just because I am here posting this and making a nuisance of myself

Bear in mind that like me, many others are potential new customers when the current contract runs out

In reply to a post by tommy45:

Would you mind enlightening, us who don't know What exactly are these trade-offs,?I mean you buy this pro add on, So surely there should be no negatives

So you haven't read the article. Or if you have, you have failed to understand it.

... otherwise the buying of the pro add-on maybe seen as a,tad pointless,from a customers viewpoint

Which is why several of the Plusnet reps have recommended that customers should try without it first.

But in turn, I don't understand where your

"otherwise ... ie,It should override all shaping not only some

comes from. It does override all shaping. Which clearly can often be a negative from the user's point of view.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

It does override all shaping.

Almost. Some protocols are still prioritised higher than others on Pro, so it doesn't entirely remove the traffic management.

Really?

On Pro:
Titanium: Gaming, VoIP, VPN, FTP (This should be in Gold imo), Unidentified.
Gold: Browsing, Streaming, P2P, Usenet, Email.....

In reply to a post by KellyD:

On Pro:
Titanium: Gaming, VoIP, VPN, FTP (This should be in Gold imo), Unidentified.
Gold: Browsing, Streaming, P2P, Usenet, Email.....

Would there be an issue with putting every protocol on Pro into Titanium?

Thanks Kelly .

Kelly a clear question to you.

Lets say I migrated to you next week.

Would you give me written terms stating if bronze traffic was throttled plusnet side (without my own connection been saturated by higher class traffic) I could leave without penalty?

if not why not?

Edited by Chrysalis (Tue 22-Jan-13 18:55:51)

The main issue is around resilience. If we had a failure (or BT had a failure) which caused mass disconnections, we'd probably end up with a balance problem with too many customers connected to one part of the platform and not part. In this scenario, you might see there being too much Gold traffic. In these scenarios, you might see some slow downs as we preserve the gold and titanium experience of those customers. It might last for an evening while we sorted the balance out.

If you were signed up to the non contracted copper product, you could leave after a month anyway

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

Would you give me written terms stating if bronze traffic was throttled plusnet side (without my own connection been saturated by higher class traffic) I could leave without penalty?

if not why not?

You haven't defined "throttled". You seem to be demanding a guarantee that 100% of all traffic through Plusnet systems runs at full speed 24/7.

No ISP offers that on anything but a leased line.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

No ISP offers that on anything but a leased line.

Even for leased lines, there could be a fault limiting your speed, and all the ISP has guaranteed is a repair within a pre-agreed time frame. (and that may not apply in case of severe weather, etc).
So I don't think anybody guarantees that.

no congestion wouldnt class as been throttled. But of course I would expect that congestion to also affect gold equally. I wasnt asking for 1:1 contention, I was asking for no bronze throttling due to isp lack of available capacity. Two very different things.

Kelly has now replied tho so the bronze it seems will still kick in when is outages, and maybe other situations that they wouldnt consider normal load's.

My question also was a serious one as I am considering giving plusnet a punt given my static ip situation but I dont want to join an isp and then a few months later they start throttling all their defined bronze traffic.

Although been honest bronze doesnt really concern me as my current isp throttles p2p anyway (and much heavier than plusnet did) not to mention I rarely use p2p and never use newsgroups, however 'other' traffic is classified as silver. In the past before plusnet changed their policy did silver and gold traffic ever slow down to protect titanium?

Like olivier I think if there was an all titanium option I would be in.

Edited by Chrysalis (Wed 23-Jan-13 15:14:37)

no congestion wouldnt class as been throttled. But of course I would expect that congestion to also affect gold equally. I wasnt asking for 1:1 contention, I was asking for no bronze throttling due to isp lack of available capacity. Two very different things.

We've made the call that gold is more important (which will be true for your average user, but perhaps not you), hence the decision. If you had Pro, all your traffic would be gold/titanium so you would be protected.

My question also was a serious one as I am considering giving plusnet a punt given my static ip situation but I dont want to join an isp and then a few months later they start throttling all their defined bronze traffic.

We wouldn't be allowed to call the product Unlimited at that point, but I understand your reticence. This is why I'm talking about the way we do this to try and get people to see our approach and try and build some trust. Not easy though!

Although been honest bronze doesnt really concern me as my current isp throttles p2p anyway (and much heavier than plusnet did) not to mention I rarely use p2p and never use newsgroups, however 'other' traffic is classified as silver. In the past before plusnet changed their policy did silver and gold traffic ever slow down to protect titanium?

Other is titanium on Pro fyi. There isn't much titanium at all, so it has very little impact on the rest of the queues.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

I can't see what you object to. It's perfectly clear.

You might find it less confrontational to address your concerns as positive suggestions rather than attacking people who are trying to help users on this forum BatBoy.

seb

In reply to a post by seb:

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

I can't see what you object to. It's perfectly clear.

You might find it less confrontational to address your concerns as positive suggestions rather than attacking people who are trying to help users on this forum BatBoy.

seb

I'll do that in future, Seb.

That means you've no distinction at all between, for example, your VoIP and your torrenting. Which wouldn't be great..

In reply to a post by KellyD:

That means you've no distinction at all between, for example, your VoIP and your torrenting. Which wouldn't be great..

But what if the user is happy for all the traffic on his/her connection to have equal priority?

Wouldn't user 'A' with Titanium P2P get priority over User 'B' Gold Browsing?

Not a recipe for happy customers, if so.

In reply to a post by camieabz:

Wouldn't user 'A' with Titanium P2P get priority over User 'B' Gold Browsing?

http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/plusnet/t/4202603-p...

In reply to a post by camieabz:

Wouldn't user 'A' with Titanium P2P get priority over User 'B' Gold Browsing?

Not a recipe for happy customers, if so.

Well, that's the idea of Pro, to elevate the priorities of the various protocols.

In reply to a post by Oliver341:

Well, that's the idea of Pro, to elevate the priorities of the various protocols.

http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/plusnet/t/4202603-p...

No, because PN are buying enough capacity for all Unlimited lines to run at line speed. Therefore there is no contention between different users and the traffic management applies to the single users line only.

I'd guess many Unlimited accounts will be households with multiple users. Mum and Dad are not going to be happy if their kids P2P stops them being able to watch HD streaming - that's where the traffic prioritisation comes in to play.

In reply to a post by jelv:

No, because PN are buying enough capacity for all Unlimited lines to run at line speed. Therefore there is no contention between different users and the traffic management applies to the single users line only.

Which begs the question, assuming Pro is aimed at people who don't want traffic management on their own connection, why all the traffic can't be on an equal footing (i.e. Titanium).

Look like the fastest times to download will soon be when the kids are at school, and the parents are at work.

No wait they'll be torrenting then too.

Time to buy that house next to the exchange and avoid the contention.

Why would anyone want VoIP, gaming and streaming spoilt by background activities like Usenet, P2P or downloads?

The prioritisation means the time critical activities take the bandwidth they need and then the background activities take everything that's left.

Explain why you want that?

In reply to a post by camieabz:

Time to buy that house next to the exchange and avoid the contention.

ANd be stuck on ADSL2+ because it's EO .

In reply to a post by KellyD:

Explain why you want that?

Choice, the ability to prioritise traffic on one's own connection, without the ISP pre-prioritising in advance. It won't be for everyone, that's why Pro is an option.

Is VPN traffic throttled? If so, what about with the Pro option?

On the Unlimited service *no* traffic is rate limited. The prioritisation of VPN is in the Gold queue as per the information here: http://www.plus.net/support/broadband/speed_guide/tr...

Nice, thanks

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

In reply to a post by camieabz:

Time to buy that house next to the exchange and avoid the contention.

ANd be stuck on ADSL2+ because it's EO .

I told you already, I'd dig the hole. After that, you can borrow my spade to dig yourself out of one.

(Before we get on to your reply to that old post).

'Twas just a joke about moving next to the exchange . No other significance occurred to me.