Broadband no longer available

Broadband was enabled on my phone line in 2005 and has been used with reasonable reliability ever since until last month. We are a long way from the exchange but speed had gradually improved until, over the last few years, it averaged around 0.75Mbps.
Last month connection became erratic and then ceased altogether. 2 visits from Openreach have failed to resolve the problem and yesterday I received the following from Plusnet:

"I can see that Openreach eventually made it out to you on the 12th where it was confirmed that the distance to the exchange is why the line is not able to get a signal. When the order was placed we based the estimate on the information provided by Openreach which takes into account lines that are already connected to the cabinet and the average seen on the lines there. It doesn't have the capacity to apply individual estimates for a line and it's generally once a service goes live that we know what the line is actually capable of.

It is because of this very reason no provider can guarantee or promise how the line will perform.

Physically both Plusnet and Openreach can't do anything to improve this as the distance is something that can't be reduced. Your welcome to contact our Customer Options team on 0800 013 2632 to discuss your contract"

I'm not sure what to do. Any advice, please.

I may not acknowledge any replies immediately as I live 'in the sticks' and now have a 20 mile round trip to the local library for internet access.

Thank you
Billward

Hi Bill,

Yes get a grant if you can and get 2 way satellite installed.(depends where you are also) Or there are other alternatives such as http://notspotbroadband.com/grant-schemes/#146775725... that might be able to help you.

That's just one of many solutions that you may want to look into. Is mobile data viable at your location?

This article goes into it a bit from last year

http://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2015/09/governm...

This company do it from what I can tell.

https://www.satelliteinternet.co.uk/ - you can also call to see if you can get a free install. It does tend to be where areas care not reached by BT however this company clearly may be able to help you as they state

"No matter where your property is, if you can't currently get a broadband service running at a minimum speed of 2 Mbps, then a satellite connection may be a great solution for you. Because the whole of the UK already falls under our satellite service coverage, we can connect quite literally any premises within the UK to our fast and robust broadband service - and all our monthly packages run at up to 20 Mbps - within just a couple of weeks or so."

0.75 to 20mbps = Skateboard to Ferrari

Edited by deleted (Fri 16-Dec-16 13:38:45)

The trouble with satellite is relatively high cost, high latency, low data caps and very variable performance. Sometimes the ferrari is more of a tortoise. It may be better than nothing but it is not the panacea solution and is generally only a stop gap until something better comes along.

4G can have better overall performance but again is quite expensive for the amount of data that is generally included.

Have you just changed ISP to Plusnet? Is that when you lost connection or were you already with Plusnet and developed a fault? BT currently are not required to provide broadband so if they get to a point where the cost to fix is high then they will refuse and there is currently little you can do about it.

You may get better luck with an ISP like AAISP who are generally willing to put work in to getting you running - no guarantees.

In reply to a post by ian72:

The trouble with satellite is relatively high cost, high latency, low data caps and very variable performance. Sometimes the ferrari is more of a tortoise. It may be better than nothing but it is not the panacea solution and is generally only a stop gap until something better comes along.

4G can have better overall performance but again is quite expensive for the amount of data that is generally included.

I know this - but it might be the guys ONLY option in which cause it has to be more than a stop gap. I am sure if he could get 4G or 3G a 20 mile trip to the library would have been avoided, unless it's not been considered until now.

The key here is what was the downstream and upstream line attenuation, and which exchange is it...

Attenuation should be fairly constant, but unlikely you recall or know what it was back in 2005.

https://labs.thinkbroadband.com/local should highlight most options for fixed wireless or a USC voucher as others are suggesting, but beyond any specific advice would need sharing of a postcode in private.

I don't get it. Your line has had a "signal" since 2005. Ok, the speed has dropped over time, but are they now actually saying it's dropped so low that a (reliable) signal is no longer possible? If so, why? Crosstalk/interference issues or just an excuse so they don't have to deal with supplying broadband to you anymore?

Even at 0.75Mbps, I would think your line would still support the old legacy 576kbps fixed rate ADSL service, which means there must still be a (usable) signal present. But I'm pretty sure it is no longer possible to order fixed rate ADSL as BTO canned those packages in favour of ADSL Max services - which, by the looks of things, has now rendered your line unusable (though I'm still not sure why).

As others have said, definitely give A&A a call an explain the situation. If they are willing to take you on, they will make it their mission to get you up and running again. If they fail, there is no charge!

http://aa.net.uk/broadband-trial.html

I'm assuming the OP changed ISP to Plusnet and that the change has destabilised the connection.

Why would a change of ISP destabilize the physical part of the connection? (the pair, joints, all the way back to the exchange, etc?). Why would Openreach issue that as an excuse to Plusnet, and why would Plusnet accept this excuse?

Sorry, something doesn't smell right. At all.

May be a connection going from LLU to standard ADSL which would result in the connection being physically moved between hardware. If Plusnet is a new ISP then they will just get a report from Openreach that the connection is not suitable and there have been other examples where they get that and don't do much more to resolve.

If they haven't changed ISP then it may be there has been some sort of repair in the network that might have affected joints in the cabling and caused the issue.

In reply to a post by ian72:

May be a connection going from LLU to standard ADSL which would result in the connection being physically moved between hardware. If Plusnet is a new ISP then they will just get a report from Openreach that the connection is not suitable and there have been other examples where they get that and don't do much more to resolve.

If they haven't changed ISP then it may be there has been some sort of repair in the network that might have affected joints in the cabling and caused the issue.

A change from talk talk LLU to plusnet a few years ago halved my speed from 1.2 - 0.6mbps but assuming that change has not happened in this case then increasing use of fibre further up the line can destroy the connection. We had an AIO cabinet installed in October and some 25 users went live, but since then the ADSL lines for those who, because of Openreach problems, have been unable to order fibre have deteriorated, and in one or two cases ceased entirely,

Billward was with the ISP madasafish then moved over to Plusnet sometime.

Posting history

Seems it is a long connection to the exchange, as you mention it could be worth a punt trying out Andrews & Arnold Ltd or at least the OP speaking to them about the line issue.

That sounds hideous.

However, I refuse to believe that some lines are so long and interference becomes that bad that they just cease working and are unable to carry any signal at all. They can still carry some signal, surely? It would have to be an extremely long and poor quality line to offer no potential for any ADSL service what so ever.

Many years ago, I stuck my brother on Zen's Home 250 ADSL package. Not because he had a long line (though it was reasonably long), but because this was a unlimited service at the time, and a fixed amount per month in terms of cost. It forced the line to sync at 288kbps down and up, so he saw about 32Kb/sec in either direction. Very stable, solid internet connection, but yeah, nowadays, unworkable for most media streaming services/dropbox'ing etc (32Kb/sec is nothing!).

If the OP's line really has lost most of the signal it once had, Zen's Home 250 IPStream service is the bottom of the barrel, and I'm sure would have worked. Assuming he could find an ISP that offers that same IPStream service today, I'm sure he would recover a somewhat stable connection again - as I said, maybe even 576/228 would still be possible.

Strangely enough, I never did quite work out how Zen provisioned their Home 250 service, because the likes of this page no longer lists it (only fixed rate IPStream services 500, 1000 and 2000). Maybe 250 was an IPStream service BT offered to ISPs for a while before 21CN took off, and with the mass migration from 20CN to 21CN, they pulled the product. Anyway, for its time, that Home 250 package was brilliant. Unlimited, no risk of being over charged, or having your connection chopped for over usage. How the landscape has changed since a decade ago!

Can modern routers cope with very low speeds and lots of noise?

In reply to a post by mixt:

That sounds hideous.

However, I refuse to believe that some lines are so long and interference becomes that bad that they just cease working and are unable to carry any signal at all. They can still carry some signal, surely? It would have to be an extremely long and poor quality line to offer no potential for any ADSL service what so ever.

Well quite - I've got some customers who only get 160k - the real minimum. It isn't pretty, it isn't fast, it is often pretty rubbish, but it's better than a dial-up, of which there's not much choice there either.

Strangely enough, I never did quite work out how Zen provisioned their Home 250 service, because the likes of this page no longer lists it (only fixed rate IPStream services 500, 1000 and 2000). Maybe 250 was an IPStream service BT offered to ISPs for a while before 21CN took off, and with the mass migration from 20CN to 21CN, they pulled the product. Anyway, for its time, that Home 250 package was brilliant. Unlimited, no risk of being over charged, or having your connection chopped for over usage. How the landscape has changed since a decade ago!

Zen used the IPStream 250 product from BT Wholesale, and was removed a long time ago (2011 ish IIRC)

We used to install Home 250 circuits quite a bit - great for out of band, dedicated smtp to help keep pressure off the limited upstream of primary circuits and suchlike.

In reply to a post by mixt:

Strangely enough, I never did quite work out how Zen provisioned their Home 250 service, because the likes of this page no longer lists it (only fixed rate IPStream services 500, 1000 and 2000). Maybe 250 was an IPStream service BT offered to ISPs for a while before 21CN took off, and with the mass migration from 20CN to 21CN, they pulled the product. Anyway, for its time, that Home 250 package was brilliant. Unlimited, no risk of being over charged, or having your connection chopped for over usage. How the landscape has changed since a decade ago!

Replying to the previous thing again, I had a look at some old paperwork...

IPStream Home 250 - available from 1st Sep 2004.
£12.25 + VAT from BTWholesale per month, which was only 90p less than the 500 product!

According to my own post, late 2008 they shuffled people onto a Home 350 product:
http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/zen/t/3498293-regra...

If a signal is always available to give a service how come there are so many long lines that have never been able to get ADSL of any speed?

Phone service does not degrade over distance and ADSL does?

In reply to a post by gerarda:

If a signal is always available to give a service how come there are so many long lines that have never been able to get ADSL of any speed?

A signal isn't *always* available. I never said it was.

The lowest ADSL sync I've ever seen (and possibly the lowest possible, I can't remember) is 160k.

A long line that is relatively quiet is likely to do better than one that suffers from noise - underground for example tends to be better than overhead, but the latter is more common on long lines because it's most likely served by poles etc.

Thanks to everybody for your responses. I'll return home and digest them for my next visit to the library.

Just to clear up a few points (in no particular order):

Attenuation - I don't know what it was in 2005 but in 2011 it was around 45 and this year it has been around 34. This info comes from a SamKnows unit installed in 2011.

History - someone mentioned I used to be with Madasafish. In fact originally it was Totalise who then became part of the company owning Madasafish who, in turn, became part of Plusnet. I don't know the dates.

Download speed - in 2005 download speed was around 0.2 Mbps. Since 2012 it has been around 0.75 Mbps. I have 1 record of it reaching 1.0 Mbps. Speed has increased, not decreased, over time.

Alternatives - an option, with a possible grant, was made available in our area about 4 years ago using a wireless provider. I considered this at the time but decided to wait because of ongoing cost, 2 year minimum commitment and data limits. Since then I have heard serious criticism of the service from other locals some of whom have discontinued the service.

Change of supplier - I have to check when I transferred BB to Plusnet but it was more than 2 years ago so I don't think this is a factor..

Change to fibre - there is activity related to the exchange and between my home and the exchange. gerarda's comment about this possibly affecting users seems consistent with my problem. We don't have access to a fibre connection. This comment to a neighbour 1/2 a mile closer to the cabinet than I am is relevant - I am so sorry but it looks unlikely that your premises will benefit from the Superfast Cymru roll out Programme. The cabinet that serves your area has been enabled but it seems you are too far away to benefit.

AAISP - I wasn't aware of AAISP. Thanks for the suggestion.

I'll be back at the library later this week for any responses and many thanks to you all.

billward

On your attenuation, a lower attenuation is generally better, a 34dB downstream attenuation SHOULD NOT BE SUB 1 Mbps, in fact should be above 8 Mbps.

Even at the worse 45dB attenuation figure speeds of 5 Mbps should be possible. From your description of the service I was expecting a figure of 63dB.

This suggests maybe those figures are wrong or the line has had a severe fault on it for many years. It is possible if I was to know the postcode of the property to cross-check and see if you are located where very low speeds or nothing is possible.

It may be you are on an old IPStream Max service, which will have a bearing on things, knowing exchange name would let people figure that out.

http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/plusnet/t/4050148-r...

Same line?

I agree that the attenuation looks wrong.

Perhaps because it is being taken from a SamKnows unit which, unless I'm mistaken, doesn't act as a modem.

Unless the user has re-purposed an old SamKnows unit.

Correct its not a modem and don't see how it can be displaying attenuation, now it could be trying to scrape it from the users modems web interface, but unless they've given permission that would not be a good thing for it to be doing (and never heard of their kit doing this)

Attenuation of 45 and 34 are you sure?
This should give around 7 - 10Mbps...

I expect your actual line attenuation is over 70 and displayed as 63 by the router (the highest the router will display)...

I have had Samknows boxes for years. They do not read attenuation figures. If the user is using a Samknows box then it is either not the ones used for speedtesting or they are likely reading a figure that they assume is attenuation but actually isn't (my guess is it is the latency readings they are looking at - but if so then they are fairly high which would suggest heavy interleaving).

My apologies.

The figures I quoted are for latency, not attenuation. I don't have any figures for attenuation.

Oct 2016 average numbers are: Downstream - 0.76 Mbps, Upstream - 0.38 Mbps, Latency - 35.54, Packet loss - 0.02%

Nov 2011: Downstream - 0.28 Mbps, Upstream - 0.35 Mbps, Latency - 45.71 ms, Packet loss - 0.21%.

I've no objection to disclosing my postcode but not sure of the etiquette. Exchange is Llanymynech & I'm just over 10 km from it as the cable goes.

Library closes in a few minutes (& closed tomorrow) so it may be after Christmas before I see any replies.

billward

It looks like your line has been gradually deteriorating over a long period. The lower speeds and higher latency suggest the line has been increasing interleaving and reducing sync speed in order to hold a connection. It is likely that whatever has been deteriorating has now got so bad that it can't hold on to any real connection and therefore BT have 2 choices - do the work to find and fix the fault or decide they can no longer support the line. Doing the first would be good customer service but could cost a lot of money, doing the second is bad customer service but possibly the only "cost effective" route that BT can take.

I think you misread. The latency and speed have been getting better not worse over time.

Quite the opposite

Oct 2016 Downstream - 0.76 Mbps,
Nov 2011: Downstream - 0.28 Mbps

Demonstrating a marked improvement overtime.
3x faster in 2016 than 2011.

In reply to a post by Billward:

I'm just over 10 km from it as the cable goes.

I partially retract my comments elsewhere in this post regarding my statement of:

In reply to a post by mixt:

I refuse to believe that some lines are so long and interference becomes that bad that they just cease working and are unable to carry any signal at all.

10 km is an insanely long line, and I now appreciate why there may no longer be any scope for any ADSL signal on it, at all, even a ridiculously minimal one, like therioman's 160 kbps.

I guess at that kind of line length, the only workable frequency range is back in the narrow band spectrums of ISDN and dial up!

In reply to a post by mixt:

I guess at that kind of line length, the only workable frequency range is back in the narrow band spectrums of ISDN and dial up!

I think its why there is a specification for ADSL over ISDN, but only Germany has ever used it.

They used that because their phone lines were basically ISDN based, nothing to do with range

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

They used that because their phone lines were basically ISDN based, nothing to do with range

Ok, thanks!

Okay in which case you are one of just a handful we've seen with a line working out at that sort of length, longest ever was 11km.

No requirement at present to repair or uplift you, for now all can see is check at https://www.homeandwork.openreach.co.uk/when-can-i-g... and see if there is FTTP work underway, as some parts of the exchange are scheduled to get FTTP.

In reply to a post by mixt:

10 km is an insanely long line, and I now appreciate why there may no longer be any scope for any ADSL signal on it, at all, even a ridiculously minimal one, like therioman's 160 kbps.

I guess at that kind of line length, the only workable frequency range is back in the narrow band spectrums of ISDN and dial up!

10km is indeed a very long line.

But length of the line is not the only factor that affects the attenuation (which is what really matters). The gauge of the copper matters just as much ... and it matters just as much for voice circuits too.

0.9mm copper has a much lower attenuation per km than standard 0.5mm copper, and so gets used for very long lines - allowing service over lines 2-3x longer than expected.

In reply to a post by huwwatkins:

I think you misread. The latency and speed have been getting better not worse over time.

Sorry, yes I did. I misread the dates of the posts as my brain assumed the oldest would be listed first so didn't take in the fact the first is actually the latest post.

Again, thanks everybody for your comments. I've learnt a bit even if I've no solution yet.
An engineer is due tomorrow but I'm not optimistic.
It is frustrating - cabinet 6 on the Llanymynech exchange is fibre enabled but the line is too long for Superfast speeds. That doesn't bother me - I just need any speed. The fibre coils have been hanging from the telegraph poles since October and carry on for another km past my house. In fact I suspect the problem has been caused as a result of work that has been going on over the last 2 or 3 three months rather than just because the line quality has gradually degraded. I might be wrong but there is history.
Yesterday I spoke to BT, originally to try and get some idea of fibre timing but that was a waste of time. Interestingly, after giving them my details, phone no, etc., and explaining the current absence of broadband I was given a quote for BT supplying broadband at a quoted speed of between 1 Mbps & 3.5 Mbps!!

Just to clarify the past - over the 11 years broadband speed has increased from around 0.2 Mbps to 0.75 Mbps, reliability has been generally good apart from the odd incident of an underground cable being ploughed or the squirrels using the overhead cable as a highway and finding the outer insulation nice to chew. Service has also been good and the issue of line length has only been raised once as far as I can recall.

billward

So you have fibre at the pole!? Or do you mean the telephone wires?

Have you tried connecting the router without the samknows box directly into the TEST socket within the master socket to check for any improvement in speed?

Test socket

What router are you using just now, on my long line connection to the exchange the routers with Broadcom chipsets do best.

FWIW any Samknows box connects to a router on the ethernet and WiFi side, so will have no impact to a DSL connection. Unless of course its power supply if faulty, and causing noise on the line, but any power supply for any modern electronics could be the same. Phone chargers, christmas lights, computer speakers, even new flat screen TVs come with external power supplies.

What they mean sounds like a what is happening in some 4% of Wales and is a native FTTP roll-out, but it takes time to complete,

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

What they mean sounds like a what is happening in some 4% of Wales and is a native FTTP roll-out, but it takes time to complete,

Sucks hows it's only 4% - Luckily I think there is an alternative for me but for others not so

That sounds familiar, Waterston near Milford haven had coils hanging from poles for months due to damaged ducting that stalled the roll out for a while.

Well over a year ago a chamber was built with a new pole adjacent at The Green in Pembroke we are told for FTTP for the unfortunates on cab 4 (which is actually quite a distance away), but to date no further progress on that.

The roll out in Wales seems to happen in fits and starts with no discernible pattern or logic.