That was my feeling, and that it was a way of being derogatory about a particular site without specifically naming it, because he has no respect at all for it.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Disconnecting a modem from a line to most people means disconnecting the DSL cable at one end or the other. It doesn't mean causing a loss of sync by powering it down.

You are now playing on words where I have described a method. It's pointless arguing with you as you seem to refuse to see the wood for the trees.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

You seem to completely misunderstand everything about the subject, and not realise that everyone you are disputing the issue with here knows an awful lot more than you. Considering your odd interpretation of the language in several places perhaps your misconceptions are to be expected.

Gabbling on about problems people have had in the past on Plusnet and Kitz forums is pointless, particularly if you were involved in giving incorrect advice.

Equally pointless seems to be trying to educate you, so I for one will give up. I shall merely try to help people I find you misinforming.

As you undoubtedly seem not to be an engineer, you are the one getting confused. I was NOT solely referring to "users problems" on the kitz site, but the wealth of CORRECT information that is there, from the experts, especially those in the field. I am quite willing to be "educated" but that would be by people who are the experts, not the non-engineers that seem to misinterpret what they choose. You seem to ignore the fact that there will be quite a few readers here that do not understand all the technical terms involved, and trying to explain things in a plain and simpler way is not "odd interpretation of the language", and it not always easy to do, sometimes things could be worded better.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

However, before I go:-

Clicking Disconnect and powering off the Router should be done before even contemplating turning off the Modem

If you mean closing the PPP session, say so. Disconnecting means removing physical connections. It is possibly "best practice", but is rarely a necessity.

"Closing" a PPP session will mean little to most non-technical users. If you log into a Router with the ability in the PPP Interface, the button is marked DISCONNECT. It seems you again want to twist the interpretation.
It is "best practice" and the reason is to help reduce the possibility of a stuck stale session issue which can arise on occasion, and even the experts don't always know why.
If you wish to go round offering advice which is not "best practice" that is your choice.
Do NOT criticise me for choosing to give "best practice" advice.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

If anyone is going to turn off their Modem, it should be turned off for at the very least 30 minutes and preferably a hour to ensure the sync loss doesn't get counted as a drop in connection and it resets some of the DLM counters.

Utter drivel.

It seems you can't be bothered to go and read up on it.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

But it any event I'm not certain that turning off the modem will help resolve a stuck stale session.
Certainly on 20CN, turning off the Modem/Router for an hour always cleared stale sessions, and Plusnet gave similar advice for 21CN when they had quite a few stale session problems with those Network issues.

Everything you say after the first sentence of it contradicts that first sentence.

Quite apart from the fact that "turning the modem/router off for an hour always cleared stale sessions" is not true. As you say immediately afterwards:-

Unfortunately, in a lot of cases, it's still necessary to get Plusnet to kill the stale session.

Whilst I will agree that was badly worded, the first sentence was referring to FTTC, I think the meaning is clear. On 20CN because of the way PPP Authentication etc. is done, the action usually results in the stale session dying. 21CN is different and I can't be certain that it is always the case (I don't see, nor do I investigate all possible examples that might exist). The fact remains that in some situations, what you do as a user, does not result in the expected outcome. All attempts at different actions to get a stale session to die, fail. Then Plusnet need to kill it.

In conclusion, I don't intend to waste any more time on this simply because you choose not to give best practice advise on occasion, and twist what I was actually saying rather than try and understand what I did mean (despite some bad wording)

Bad wording means bad information.

what is this pay site you referring to?

whats embarrassing is openreach not knowing how to rollout g.inp on their own network. Which is living proof that you can attend 1000s of meetings and still not have a clue.

It's easy to be a keyboard warrior.

There are issues with retransmission (OR admit this to ISPs) - the latest one being with VoIP. But at the end of the day, they know a heck of a lot more than you or I ever will.

In reply to a post by ChrisAO:

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

If anyone is going to turn off their Modem, it should be turned off for at the very least 30 minutes and preferably a hour to ensure the sync loss doesn't get counted as a drop in connection and it resets some of the DLM counters.

Utter drivel.

It seems you can't be bothered to go and read up on it.

The DLM stuff that's on Kitz's site is pretty comprehensive - if the DLM uses MTBR (mean time between retrains) as an indicator of line stability, then simply turning the modem off/on again quickly shouldn't cause an issue - the DLM will see this as a one off. If you do this a couple of times in quick succession however, the DLM will factor it in to deciding what to do with the line.

The 30 minutes thing is a "better safe than sorry" approach to ensure the retrain isn't counted.

Whether this is anecdotal, based on fact or whatever, there is no official documentation from BT in the public domain AFAIK - just excerpts etc which I know Andy has posted details on in the past, since he got in to a slanging match with Kitz IIRC.

The stuck session thing appears to get mentioned on plus.net a fair bit - which is slightly amusing since a lot of plus.net people over on the community site seem to be able to tear down their PPP session multiple times every night, in pursuit of elusive lower pings & higher speed downloads... But it does indeed appear to get stuck at the plus.net end sometimes.

I just power off my router for a bit and leave the modem as is - no need to worry about 30 minutes when they're separate boxes.

@Andy - Kitz isn't a pay site any more than TBB or community.plus.net is.

In reply to a post by AndyHCZ:

The 'pay' site

False.
The site is not in any way shape or form a pay site, so stop that libellous & vindictive rumour that you are spreading.

makes a lot of misinterpretations about how DLM works based on the ASSIA v BT court case ruling,

False.
It was written prior to the ASSIA court case. None of the information on that page is assumed from or taken from any of the court case documentation.

particularly about how the data from the 15 min bins is analysed

BT collects the data from 15 min bins. This isnt just a BT thing, most routers store data in 15 min bins.
However, if you are still unsure you could always get your ISP to use the BRAT/RRT tool from KBD which will (if they have the correct permission) show the data recorded by the DLM system for KBD in 15 min units.

The fact is though that this 30 min thing is a complete myth and irrelevant to how RAMBo analyses the 24hr data.

False
Ive never said the 30 mins is anything to do with how RAMBo analyses the data at all.

I have said how they monitor for Wide Area Events, and that relies on uptime during that 15 min time frame. The 30 min is simply a precaution on how the DLM sees the retrain as a forced or unforced event.

The over-riding fact is that the system does allow 'x' retrains per day (depending upon your profile) and will turn a blind eye. But there are many examples whereby some users have been messing with a new router and they do exceed the MTBR so get caught by the DLM.

You don't have to wait 30 mins. I don't if I know Im going to be doing a straight swap that is only going to involve one or two resyncs. However if Im going to be messing with firmwares and configurations on a router, then I will.

It is a fact is every time you disconnect and resync in the same 15 min period then the MTBR counter will increase by 1. It is a fact that if there is a complete 15 min bin without any uptime then the the previous retrain event is classed as an unforced retrain.

Mildly embarrassing.

For you - spinning lies that aren't true.

I guess people from the 'pay' site also attend the monthly product group meetings with OR.

My information about DLM comes from BT Wholesale and information distributed to ISPs.
The DLM system was designed by and is owned by BT wholesale. RAMBo design and implementation. 'belongs' to BT Wholesale. Theres 3 sub-systems:- 20CN, 21CN & NGA.


Im sure Saffy knows and can confirm that I have always had BTw contacts there going back >12 years. Ive always made info available on my site, but just so you know both BT Openreach and BT Wholesale are fully aware of what's up there. In fact it was the BT CEO that encouraged and endorsed what I was doing.

Just because the information I get doesn't come from the same source within BT doesnt mean that you can constantly diss the information that I put out.

Some people (especially those on the "pay" site) are clearly jealous

False!
I am most certainly not jealous of you, nor do I want to be 'part of your circle' as was claimed on the PN forums. Ive been doing what I do for over 12 years and the info is put out there for all to read. Why on earth would I be jealous of you.

I don't go round stirring things up and talking to people in a condescending manner when they have a problem with their broadband refusing to believe that Openreach/BT/Plusnet may have got something wrong. I'm not the reason why people get wound up on the Plusnet forums.


Your problem Andy appears to be the fact that I do get info, and what you fail to comprehend is that what one department says isn't necessarily the same as what another says. Unlike you I know and accept that BT do on occasion stuff things up and everything doesnt go to plan. Its been happening for the past 13 years.

A classic example of this was G.INP when you refused to believe any of the info on my site, simply because it wasn't what Openreach was saying on the info you got. You sat there telling people that things 'were working as intended' and that 'it wasn't causing any detriment to how they used their connection'.

I on the other-hand knew something wasn't working how it should, I was the one sympathising with users who suddenly lost 10Mbps of speed and doubling of latency. I was the one who contacted certain people in BT/Plusnet/Router Manufacturers. I think it was only when you saw me tell Bob Pullen about the HH5A's on the PN forum and telling him to swap to a HH5B, that you shut up.

The information I had about G.INP was correct, despite you saying it was rubbish. This is one of the reasons why I got someone at Openreach to actually put their name to things. Im sure Andrew will confirm just how hard that is and how long it takes to go through that process as things are checked and double checked before you can publish.

If you want to say information is rubbish then take it up with BT not me. I put the information out there in the hope of helping people to get facts. You obviously seem to better than their Chief Engineer.
http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/ginp-retransmission.htm

--
edit - corrected typo for one place where I'd accidentally typo'd MTBR as MBTR

Edited by kitz (Fri 18-Sep-15 13:31:35)

In case anyone doubts the time frame and information about DLM on my site... and proof that Andy's defamatory comment about it being based on the ASSIA court case ruling is a lie:-

You can see its always been available to members of my site since May 2014. I never did get around to doing the graphic I intended, but after lots of requests I linked to it live without the graphics.
Ironically you can also see in that thread some input from cpettitt who wrote the one on Plusnet's site at about the same time.

Info about the DLM system was written prior to the DLM process and Ive always had some info about it. This was a 2006 version.

Just because AndyH doesnt get that info via Openreach does not mean its wrong. As mentioned the DLM system is BTwholesale's baby. The info that was available from BTw for the ISPs afaik was pulled at the time of the court case and locked down tight, which is why nothing else is available in the public domain now.

Thanks for that G.INP interview link kitz.