SOGEA / SOTAP and existing phone numbers

Say an Andrews and Arnold existing customer doesn’t use their copper pair for PSTN at all - with no arrangement where line rental is paid to someone else such as BT who handles telephony in a split arrangement. Is it possible for the existing landline number to be retained and ported to AA VoIP before or during SOGEA / SOTAP migration? (Even though that number could not be used before.)

I tried reading your post 4 times and I'm not clear what you're asking, could you please clarify

Phone lines don't just have numbers on them waiting for someone to turn up, if A&A are providing service then there is somebody that line rental is being paid to for the WLR3 service that enables the broadband to operate.

AA lines do have associated phone numbers, so it’s a question of the end user retaining ownership of that number and wanting to get AA to port it to their VoIP, as I mentioned earlier.

I see you decided not to clarify your post, I'll leave you too it.

So you have a copper pair with A&A but you can't use it for calls, that part wasn't totally clear. Ask them for their renumber and export service.

Though if a number hasn't been able to be used it's unclear if there's any value in porting it as it's not like people know to reach you on it, unless it's a 'nice' number that you think you might want to use.

Edited by jpm (Tue 12-Jul-22 16:23:24)

See also previous thread from Ancient_Mariner who did this on AAISP.

(Originally had phone line with BT and broadband from AAISP; moved the phone line to AAISP, and then got them to do the renumber-and-export dance to move the phone number to AAISP's VoIP service)

If there is a number associated with the pseudo SoGEA , but it is barred from incoming calls and either the ‘line’ doesn’t present dialtone , or does but any attempt at an outgoing call receives an announcement or tone indicating the line cannot be used for calls , then why ( if the number isn’t used and is purely allocated for administrative purposes) why would the consumer want to port it to another provider

Maybe, as noted above, it looks “nice” or holds similar affection for the OP…

In reply to a post by CecilWard:

AA lines do have associated phone numbers, so it’s a question of the end user retaining ownership of that number and wanting to get AA to port it to their VoIP, as I mentioned earlier.

Until they publish their migration strategy any discussion is moot. Hopefully it shouldn't be too long per their comment https://forums.thinkbroadband.com/aaisp/t/4715198-re...

In reply to a post by CecilWard:

Say an Andrews and Arnold existing customer doesn’t use their copper pair for PSTN at all - with no arrangement where line rental is paid to someone else such as BT who handles telephony in a split arrangement. Is it possible for the existing landline number to be retained and ported to AA VoIP before or during SOGEA / SOTAP migration? (Even though that number could not be used before.)

It would have to be before. Once you're on SOGEA there is no landline number, it is lost.

In reply to a post by Iniltous:

If there is a number associated with the pseudo SoGEA , but it is barred from incoming calls and either the ‘line’ doesn’t present dialtone , or does but any attempt at an outgoing call receives an announcement or tone indicating the line cannot be used for calls , then why ( if the number isn’t used and is purely allocated for administrative purposes) why would the consumer want to port it to another provider

If it is SOGEA there is no pseudo number.

A&A currently simply provide a regular WLR3 PSTN line and choose not to allow customers to use the voice aspect of the service. They're trialling/looking at SOGEA, but there just isn't a number on a SOGEA line.

I am with SoGEA FTTC with UnchainedISP. The landline number is gone! No outgoing or incoming calls except 17070 and 999.

If you actually read my reply , I said if it’s pseudo SoGEA product , ( rather than an actual SoGEA, product , which the OP states the ISP in question doesn’t actually offer to consumers anyway ) , the OP states the Telco doesn’t use actual SoGEA but manipulates another product to imitate the benefits of SoGEA, so in the case the OP states the ‘pseudo’ SoGEA does have a WLR number allocated, if you state that the OP is wrong , reply to them.
If the OPs product has a directory number ( and I have no reason to disbelieve it) it’s just not useful in any sense, no incoming or outgoing service , it’s simply an administrative device .
To point out genuine SoGEA doesn’t have a phone number is valid ,but why are you replying to me when making a somewhat irrelevant point when I never stated that SoGEA has a phone number , I said that what the OP describes as being provided by their ISP mimics SoGEA , in other wards a pseudo SoGEA product

Edited by Iniltous (Sat 30-Jul-22 12:43:32)

If 17070 and 999 work then it's not SoGEA. SoGEA has no dial tone and no POTS port allocated to handle _any_ type of call AFAIK

Very strange as my service is SoGEA FTTC 80/20 by my isp unchainedisp and I can hear it - still dial tones on it and can hear 17070 with openreach message saying this is not a main landline number with 17070 option 2 for quite line test and it was silent. I guess 999 will work anyway. But my old telephone number which I have it for 31 years is no longer now as Openreach take it off.

If there's dial tone it's not SOGEA

It got dial tone on it. Should I raise this with my ISP?

In reply to a post by adslmax:

I am with SoGEA FTTC with UnchainedISP. The landline number is gone! No outgoing or incoming calls except 17070 and 999.

So what you have is ‘soft’ dial tone.
A stopped line for voice. The voice part will be switched off, or recovered, if and when necessary.

In reply to a post by adslmax:

It got dial tone on it. Should I raise this with my ISP?

No.

https://forums.thinkbroadband.com/aaisp/t/4718680-re...

It is reasonably common for lines that are transferred to SOGEA to have a vestige of the voice service still active. Sending someone to go recover the jumper from the voice out port to the bar pair/TAMS costs money. So they just remotely switch off the active part of the voice service.
A stopped line is the usual term for this.

I got text message (whatsapp) from Openreach Engineer who did installed my G.fast last year (no longer have that now)

His reply to me after asked him I thought SoGEA are supposed to be no dial tone on the line as my line still got dial tone even dialed 17070 and 999.

https://i.postimg.cc/g2NJ8jjQ/Screenshot-from-2022-0...

In reply to a post by adslmax:

I got text message (whatsapp) from Openreach Engineer who did installed my G.fast last year (no longer have that now)

His reply to me after asked him I thought SoGEA are supposed to be no dial tone on the line as my line still got dial tone even dialed 17070 and 999.

https://i.postimg.cc/g2NJ8jjQ/Screenshot-from-2022-0...

Please don't say you've dialled 999 as tests ? !

I haven't dialed 999 cos I know I would get fined if I did call it and test it

In reply to a post by adslmax:

I haven't dialed 999 cos I know I would get fined if I did call it and test it

So why did you mention it then ?

In reply to a post by adslmax:

Very strange as my service is SoGEA FTTC 80/20 by my isp unchainedisp and I can hear it - still dial tones on it and can hear 17070 with openreach message saying this is not a main landline number with 17070 option 2 for quite line test and it was silent. I guess 999 will work anyway. But my old telephone number which I have it for 31 years is no longer now as Openreach take it off.

That is not SOGEA. There is *no* voice service at all, dialtone, 999 nothing. It's a broadband only line if you actually had SOGEA.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

https://forums.thinkbroadband.com/aaisp/t/4718680-re...

It is reasonably common for lines that are transferred to SOGEA to have a vestige of the voice service still active. Sending someone to go recover the jumper from the voice out port to the bar pair/TAMS costs money. So they just remotely switch off the active part of the voice service.
A stopped line is the usual term for this.

Interesting, because on 200+ lines I've converted not one had any dialtone afterwards.

Because Openreach engineer can't be bother to switch off on dial tone on my line. My isp told me not to worry about it as I will never be charged for any line rental.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

So they just remotely switch off the active part of the voice service.
A stopped line is the usual term for this.

What would that mean if putting a butt across the line, soft DT or just blow?

In reply to a post by therioman:

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

https://forums.thinkbroadband.com/aaisp/t/4718680-re...

It is reasonably common for lines that are transferred to SOGEA to have a vestige of the voice service still active. Sending someone to go recover the jumper from the voice out port to the bar pair/TAMS costs money. So they just remotely switch off the active part of the voice service.
A stopped line is the usual term for this.

Interesting, because on 200+ lines I've converted not one had any dialtone afterwards.

The official SOGEA and SOGFast SIN makes mention that most lines will have no dial tone but Openreach can't guarantee the dial tone won't persist from the losing CP equipment.

By default Openreach renumber the line so when the dial tone does persist it will be a different number with no incoming/outgoing calls.

So it does happen.

When the "D-Side only SOGEA/SOGFast" trials progress beyond mildenhall and East Anglia then it won't be an issue.

Edit: i see Openreach have now published some dates for CP's via a briefing on when d-side only will come in to effect on specific exchanges.

https://www.openreach.co.uk/cpportal/updates/briefin...

Edited by j0hn83 (Mon 15-Aug-22 16:54:41)

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

In reply to a post by therioman:

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

https://forums.thinkbroadband.com/aaisp/t/4718680-re...

It is reasonably common for lines that are transferred to SOGEA to have a vestige of the voice service still active. Sending someone to go recover the jumper from the voice out port to the bar pair/TAMS costs money. So they just remotely switch off the active part of the voice service.
A stopped line is the usual term for this.

Interesting, because on 200+ lines I've converted not one had any dialtone afterwards.

The official SOGEA and SOGFast SIN makes mention that most lines will have no dial tone but Openreach can't guarantee the dial tone won't persist from the losing CP equipment.

By default Openreach renumber the line so when the dial tone does persist it will be a different number with no incoming/outgoing calls.

So it does happen.

When the "D-Side only SOGEA/SOGFast" trials progress beyond mildenhall and East Anglia then it won't be an issue.

Edit: i see Openreach have now published some dates for CP's via a briefing on when d-side only will come in to effect on specific exchanges.

https://www.openreach.co.uk/cpportal/updates/briefin...

Thanks for that - I hadn’t spotted that or seen that in any of the migrations I’d done. Must be lucky. Or unlucky, given how often pairs still get stolen.

Sorry, slow reply.

Yes, soft dial tone. John has provided the full technical reason why further down.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Yes, soft dial tone.

Thanks