IP Profile & BT Master Socket - Help BT_Care!!

Hi,
I'm one of those Broadband users who can just get Broadband, living in a village about 8kms from the phone exchange. I'm on SMSU whish is Shenley Church End in Milton Keynes but live in a village outside the city.

I'd never been able to sync at anything higher than about 1120kbps which has always put me on a 750K IP profile. Then, around New Year my sync went up to 1184kbps for some reason and stayed there for about a week. My IP profile jumped to 1000K and for the first time I was actually able to watch iPlayer with little drop out and our surfing experience was noticeably quicker! Then, suddenly our sync dropped back to around 1024kbps and so we went back to the 750K IP profile.

After seeing that our line could support a stable connection for over a week at 1182kbps I decided to raise a call with BT support and ask whether there was anything they could do. We went through the usual checks of connecting to the Test Socket which at that time made no difference and so they passed me to 2nd line support who called me the following morning and asked me to again plug into the Test Socket. I got the impression they were doing 'something' at their end but wasn't sure what they could do as I assumed that they were in India (it was an Indian technician I spoke to). Anyway, to my surprise I sync'd at something like 1350kbps - approx 350kbps faster than I've been used to. The technician told me that my line should be able to support this sort of speed and that there is obviously be something wrong with the wiring in my house because the connection syncd using the Test Socker. That was all he could do and that was the end of the call.

Obvoiusly I couldn't leave the HomeHub connected to the master socket so I put it all back together and of course syncd back at something like 1024kbps. I decided to disconnect the phone extensions on the BT face-plate (the bit we're allowed to touch) so that there was nothing interfering and substituted a new ADSL filter to connect both the phone and HomeHub to the face plate which now has nothing connected to it. The face plate simply plugs into the master socket so the ADSL connection is as close to the master socket as possible and yet I still can't sync about 1088kbps at best.

I can't see what else could be causing the signal to degrade other than having a faulty NTE5 face plate? I have one of the newer BT Openreach type with the built in bell filter and it's only 3 years old, surely it couldn't be faulty and yet something in there is causing my signal to drop so much.

Today, if I plug the router into the Test Socket it syncs at 1152kbps - *just* high enough to force a 1000K IP profile if it stayed stable for 3 days but when I was called by BT Support last month and they asked me to plug into the master socket I was seeing 1350ish kbps which was great. If any BT_care members are reading this, do you know if there is anything that can be done to raise my IP profile higher? I've ordered a new ADSL splitter face plate which, if it works, I hope should give me the same signal strength as if I was plagged direct into the Test Socket. If this is the case and my IP Profile could be raised (perhaps BT support did this when they called me? It is a coincidence otherwise that my sync speed jumped so high) then I may be able to get a 1350ish kbps sync speed all the time instead of languishing around 1024kbps. That extra speed makes a huge difference when your connection is so slow!

Apologies for the long post - I hope it makes sense? Hopefully you can all help?

Thanks guys,
Andrew

http://www.adslnation.com/phpapps/catalog/product_in... £9.18 + postage a new faceplate

Also without knowing your attenuation and noise margin figures to go with the sync it is hard to say if the charges are down to fiddling with the target margin, rather than a socketry issue

Hi, thanks for helping. I don't recall the SNR and Attenuation readings when I syncd at 1350kbps but my current readings are as follows:

Connection information
Line state Connected
Connection time 1 day, 1:08:20
Downstream 1,056 Kbps
Upstream 448 Kbps
ADSL settings
VPI/VCI 0/38
Type PPPoA
Modulation ITU-T G.992.1
Latency type Interleaved
Noise margin (Down/Up) 6.6 dB / 7.0 dB
Line attenuation (Down/Up) 63.5 dB / 31.5 dB
Output power (Down/Up) 14.6 dBm / 12.4 dBm

The best SNR I usually see is around 7.0 but normally it sits around 6.0.


Many thanks
Andrew

Which homehub?

I've found the v2 to be better than the v1 for sync speed.

I'll make my standard suggestion for a long line router...

http://shop.ebay.co.uk/i.html?rt=nc&_nkw=2wire%202700
http://shop.ebay.co.uk/i.html?_nkw=bt+business+hub

Edited by deleted (Thu 03-Feb-11 21:13:52)

IP Profile follows connection speed. It doesn't determine it. See this description.

Also as long as the line is generally stable, you will normally connect fastest by doing so well within full daylight hours.

Hi, I think it's the v2 model - black and curved. How would I tell for definite?

Sorry, I think my post was probably a bit confusing, I understood that the ip profile was determined by the connection speed but what I couldn't understand was when the bt support engineer called me (on my mobile phone) and asked me to plug into the test socket, my syc speed jumped from the usual 1024kbps to something like 1350kbps. If this had stayed for 3ish days I would have expected the ip profile to go up to 1000k but because I didn't want to leave the master socket dismantled, when I put it back together and plugged into the front plate my sync of course went back to 1024. If I connect to the test socket now I can only get 1152kbps at best so that's why I thought the engineer may have done something at his end, perhaps raising the target SNR?

I will try reconnecting at the test socket on Saturday, well into daylight hours because it's always dark before and after work.

Thanks for the advice. Regards,
Andrew

Let us know how the Saturday sync goes . Good luck.

(Just a further thought - you don't use a plug-in phone extension cable do you?)

Does it look like this,

http://www.gadgetspeak.com/aimg/565737-bt-home-hub-2...

That's a v2.


What you'll find is that out at the fringes, everything has to be spot-on with your setup to eke out every last Kb, so,

Remove all extension wiring.

Disconnect Sky boxes, oil tank, gas tank or alarm diallers from the line. (Note, diallers are often hard-wired to the BT side of the wiring. Naughty.)

TEST that all the extensions are dead once you remove the front part of the NTE to get at the test socket.

Use a good quality phone cable, uncoiled and away from the mains adapters, and as short as possible (more to avoid people coiling it up tidily, the actual length makes little difference - how many Km of cable are there to the exchange? The difference between a 1m and 2m cable is, er, slight).

Reconnect at lunchtime.

A filtered faceplate is near-essential at your distance. The Openreach branded ones are not expensive, the Clarity brand one is the same but allows you to run ADSL-only extension cabling if you wish to.

I would buy a 2700 and try it too - they can make a surprising difference.

Thanks RobertoS I will definately post tomorrows specs. In answer to your question, I don't have an extension Phone cable plugged in...
Thanks
Andrew

Thanks shtu. Yes it is a v2 then, although I don't have the phone. That's great advice you've given me and I will check all of the thugs tomorrow. The alarm control panel is on the wall farther up from the BT master socket, I don't know if it is connected but it's worth me checking.

All extensions have been removed now, I didn't need to use the upstairs extension sockets but to be sure I should still check that they've gone dead because I have a socket in the lounge and one in 2 of the 3 bedrooms yet I Only disconnected 2 extensions, there wasn' a third one. Either it was never wired in or it's wired to the test socket!

I will check and post my stats.

Thanks
Andrew

Extensions can be daisy-chained.

Hi all, just rebooted the homehub, still connected to master socket, not the test socket. It's 2pm and these are my stats:


Connection information
Line state Connected
Connection time 0 days, 0:01:00
Downstream 1,024 Kbps
Upstream 448 Kbps
ADSL settings
VPI/VCI 0/38
Type PPPoA
Modulation ITU-T G.992.1
Latency type Interleaved
Noise margin (Down/Up) 6.9 dB / 8.0 dB
Line attenuation (Down/Up) 63.5 dB / 31.5 dB
Output power (Down/Up) 14.4 dBm / 12.6 dBm
Loss of Framing (Local) 0
Loss of Signal (Local) 0
Loss of Power (Local) 0
FEC Errors (Down/Up) 1081 / 0
CRC Errors (Down/Up) 1 / 2147480000
HEC Errors (Down/Up) nil / 0
Error Seconds (Local) 1
Hide Details

...as you can see, no better for connecting in daylight. It's wet and rough weather though so that perhaps doesn't help. I've ordere an Austin Taylor adsl face plate which should arrive next week. Next step is to try the advice from shtu and then wait and see if the faceplate makes any difference.

Regards
Andrew

Annoying, but for 8Km it's actually not bad.

If you umake all the other checks, put in a filtered faceplate, and maybe try a different router, you might just grab enough to get into the 1Mb profile, you need a sync of 1152 or higher.

Have a look at the end of this thread, someone switching to a different router (as recommended earlier) and look at the jump in sync...

http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/notspot/f/3955949-a...

Hi all,
I've bought a new 2700 off eBay based on the good things I've read. Will bt have a problem with me using it? I've heard that all I need to do is simply plug it in and it should work? Of course, when it arrives I will post the stats. The adsl face plate should arrive first. Perhaps I should fit that first and see whether that alone makes any difference?

Thanks for all of your help so far, I will let you know how I get on.
Regards
Andrew

BT's systems will not care, just crack on and hook it up.

About the only time you *might* run into trouble is if you wind up with a fault and have to go through the retail helpdesk - they will almost certainly hit a part in the script about it being "unsupported". Avoid this by reconnecting the homehub before you call them.

Personally, I wish BT had made something of the 2Wire's quality officially available to residential customers.

EDIT - If the faceplate arrives first, take the opportunity to check over the wiring, making sure that you don't have any extensions or kit hardwired tot eh incoming line. Removing the back part of the NTE is illegal, but a BT engineer would carefully remove it and check that there is only one cable connected to each of the two connectors you will see, no scotchlocks or screw-terminal blocks, and that it is all clean and dry.

Edited by deleted (Mon 07-Feb-11 09:43:03)

HI,

*Just an update*

I received the ADSL Faceplate yesterday. Its an Austin Taylor model and seems to be well constructed and good quality. I wasn't going to fit it until daylight hours but being at work in the week I couldn't wait until Saturday to try it so I went ahead and fitted it at 10pm last night.

I can now report that I'm syncing at 1182kbps (same as when plugged into Test Socket) and my SNR is between 6.5 and 7.5. I've never seen as high as 7.5!

I'm really pleased with this as I honestly didn't expect it to make any difference. Hopefully I should remain connected above 1152kbpd now and in a couple of days my IP profile should jump up to 1000K.

I have the 2700 Router in the post to me too so it will be interesting to see whether that makes anymore difference...

Will keep you posted and thnks for the great advice so far!

Andrew

Put the 2700 router on it around lunchtime, and you should see another improvement. Once you've done that there's not much else left to do, maybe a "better" cable between the router and master socket, but that's usually a very small improvement.

There's a slight chance the new router and daylight connect, as shtu says, may give you 1440kbps. If it doesn't, do not keep re-sync'ing to see if you can get there. That could thump your noise margin settings.

Remember, there is no real difference in the effect of 1152 and 1408kbps, except 1408 could be the less stable of the two.

Sound advice right there.

It *might* scrape to 1440, but I wouldn't be surprised or disappointed if it didn't - bear in mind you've already got a 30% increase in throughput.

Hi,

Another update...

I received the 2700 yesterday and set it up last night (not connected to DSL). I was impressed to see how much diagnostic information the router has compared with the HomeHub - it certainly makes you feel short-changed with the limited data the HomeHub can give.

Anyway, you'll fry me for saying this but I couldn't resist plugging it in! Before switching off the HomeHub at ~10pm last night it was syncd at 1182kbps although hadn't been syncd long enough for my IP Profile to go from 750 to 1000.

So I switched off the HomeHub and plugged in the 2700. It took roughly 10mins to synchronise (honestly!) compared with the HomeHub which is about 60-90seconds. And to my surprise it only syncd at 1088kbps. I know it was probably the worse time to do it but I still expected better than that. So I resyncd this morning at 8am and got the same again and it still took about 10min to achieve a synchronisation. I decided at this point to try the HomeHub for comparison so swapped that back (still at 8am). That syncd in about 60seconds at 1248kbps! So now I'm confused, the HomeHub appearas to achieve a better sync by some margin than the 2700. I should stil try the 2700 around lunchtime on Saturday/Sunday as advised but at the same time, if the HomeHub holds sync at 1248 then I'm reluctant to turn it off as its a bit of a gamble as to whether, even at lunchtime, the 2700 will sync over 1152kbps and at this rate I'll never get to a 1000K IP Profile.

...and another thing, I can't understand why the 2700 seems to be taking so long to sync. Weird. So all in all, a bit confused. At the moment I'm glad the 2700 only cost £13!

Just thought you may be interested to hear how im getting on.

Thanks,
Andrew

All I can suggest is,

a) Don't mess about at night-time! We warned you...

b) Try the ADSL cable and filter that came in the box with the 2700, in the test socket.

c) Did you confirm that the wiring was OK - no other kit, all extensions dead, etc.,etc.? Are you sure there's no audible line noise? (17070 option 2)

d) What noise margin did you get when the 2700 synced? Post up the detailed stats you actually get from each (HH2 and 2700). Try and find the bit that details the DSLAM maker (might be some reference to remote vendor, remote chipset, whatever).

Take your time on the unplugging\replugging, etc. Too much at once will trigger an increase in noise margin, and make matters worse.

It is unusual that it took so long to sync - was it in a shrinkwrapped box with the seals intact? Plenty unscupulous eBay sellers.

If we can get the vendor ID of the DSLAM, there might be others that could be tried - certain Speedtouch or Netgear models may be worth a try. (Possibly speedtouch, bearing in mind your exerience so far with the Thomson-made HomeHub2)

Apart from that, you may just be at the limit of what you can get, and as you know you'll get your 1Mb profile with the HH2 (given a few days steady sync), at worst you've spent £13 to know you can get a 1Mb profile and no more.

A 1Mb profile at 8Km is hardly a failure.

While the 2700 has a good reputation there is still very much a caveat on these things, i.e. the noise situation is almost unique for each and every line.

Have you tried forcing the 2700 to only try syncing using one flavour of ADSL? G.DMT 992.1 i.e. vanilla ADSL is best probably.

Thatnks everyone for all the help and replys on this. I I was going to close this thread today but I've had an unexpected development... I have kept the BT HH2 in place because since last Friday morning I'd been connected at 1248kbps and as this is almost the best sync I've seen (with one exception) I wanted to try and keep it rather than risk a lower sync by plugging the 2700 around mid-day only to find that for unknown reasons it may connect at 1056kbps.

My connection remained up for almost approx 5 Days and 22hrs (although my IP profile remained at 750K - I though it should have jumped to 1000K after 5 days max?) but then this morning, bad luck! A problem occured at our phone exchange (according to BT) and I resync'd at 192kbps!! And then around 8am the connection kept dropping every couple of minutes, usually reconnecting at anything over 1200kbps only to drop again.,

I'm not sure how it is now because I had to leave to go to work but the BT website reports that the problems at our exchange are now resolved so hopefully my sync has restabilised over 1152kbps. My question to you is does this mean I will now need to wait for a stable connection abover 1152kbps for another 5 days (even though that made no difference last time) before I see a rise. Because the HH2 lost sync from 1248kbps at about 6am this morning (presumerably when the exchange problems started) and resync'd at 192kbps I seem to have dropped to a really low speed now. I did a speed test around 8am after rebooting the router and connecting again at 1248kbps and got no higher than about 160kbps. I'm guessing my IP profile has dropped really low now because of being connected for nearly 2hrs at 192kbps!! Just after I did the speed test the connection kept dropping every few minutes. I'm annoyed because surely this will mean the DSLAM misinterpretting the connection dropping as me constantly resetting the connection and my target SNR will rise? I wonder whether when the engineers fix a problem at the exchange they then 'reset' everyone so any 'fooling' of the DSLAM gets wiped away? Otherwise loss of connection for a fault that is outside of our control can have a knock on effect to IP Profile and Target SNR that goes on for days or even weeks beyond when the fix was made?

Any thoughts? I may have completely misundestood all of this - I'm happy to be put right!

Thanks,
Andrew

PS - double annoyed because all of the planned work to install a second cabinet in our village for FTTC suddenly got cancelled and lo and behold, our village's FTTC enablement date has gone from 31 Mar 2011 to "Sorry, BT Infintiy is not due to be rolled out in your area"!! The next village from us, 1.5miles closer to the exchange has their cabinet but for reasons unknown to me, BT have decided that us at the end of the line are no longer viable (economics? demand?). So, it looks like trying to squeeze myself onto a 1000K IP profile is even more important than ever before!

The fault at the exchange may have been an incident totally unrelated to your sync drops, or it was just said to keep you happy.

Bigger changes in IP Profile should be faster, how fast depends on how many changes the database is receiving and processing from around the country.

Essentially, what you say is correct. Bad luck indeed.

Unfortunately, it's just one of those things - every now and again I get unlucky, have to resync at night-time and wind up with a 9db noise margin, which will change back to 6db. Eventually.

Post up stats from your router, including the DSLAM ID, we may yet be able to suggest an alternative one.

Hi Andrew,

If the exchange fault has been cleared and your sync speed is still low could you send me an email with your details and I'll take a closer look at this fault for you? I'll need a link to this thread and your account details.

Our email address is [email protected].

Thanks,

Stephanie

Hi Stephanie,
Sincere thanks for offering to look into this. I've emailed across to you what I think you need to know but as I'm new to this I may have left out something important so do let me know.
I addressed the email for attention of BT_Care Stephanie so I hope you're able to find it.

Many thanks,
Andrew

Ps, thanks to Mr Saffron and Shtu too - your assistance has been very welcome!

In reply to a post by NorthBucksAndrew:

My connection remained up for almost approx 5 Days and 22hrs (although my IP profile remained at 750K - I though it should have jumped to 1000K after 5 days max?)

I've tended to find that a relatively small increase takes a long time to register, I suspect you would need to wait longer. I usually say a week to avoid the "it's been exactly 5 days and nothing's happened, I'd better reset everything" approach.

(I know you didn't, but some folk can't resist fiddling, and don't realise that it's this fiddling that can cause problems.)

There's a description of the "adaptive" system introduced a few years back here,

http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/IPprofile.htm#Adaptive_Ma...

Though my experience suggests that the small profile changes can take longer than the 120 hours mentioned there, certainly reductions to noise margin take much longer, a couple of weeks or so.

The key sentence seems to be

"How long it exactly takes for increases to be applied would also seem to depend on how busy the system is."

What's your sync speed and noise margin now?

(Again, please post up your detailed stats)

Hi shtu,
My current stats are:

Connection information
Line state Connected
Connection time 0 days, 0:03:29
Downstream 1,024 Kbps
Upstream 448 Kbps
ADSL settings
VPI/VCI 0/38
Type PPPoA
Modulation ITU-T G.992.1
Latency type Interleaved
Noise margin (Down/Up) 9.4 dB / 7.0 dB
Line attenuation (Down/Up) 63.5 dB / 31.5 dB
Output power (Down/Up) 14.8 dBm / 12.6 dBm
Loss of Framing (Local) 0
Loss of Signal (Local) 0
Loss of Power (Local) 0
FEC Errors (Down/Up) 274 / 0
CRC Errors (Down/Up) 0 / 2147480000
HEC Errors (Down/Up) nil / 0
Error Seconds (Local) 0

Now getting a top down speed of about 340kbps when doing a speed test on speedtest.bbmax.co.uk

Thanks
Andrew

In reply to a post by NorthBucksAndrew:

double annoyed because all of the planned work to install a second cabinet in our village for FTTC suddenly got cancelled and lo and behold, our village's FTTC enablement date has gone from 31 Mar 2011 to "Sorry, BT Infintiy is not due to be rolled out in your area"!!

Yup, as you'll see from my own thread about bt constipation, I've had the same delays and the same very recent message. However Roberto kindly quoted a link to
http://www.dslchecker.bt.com/adsl/adslchecker.welcome
which did give me a date - albeit September 30!

My current stats are:

Connection time 0 days, 0:03:29

**That's not been up long, <edit> that's only 3 1/2 minutes! </edit> Are you still getting line drops? You might be able to tell from the error log (It's found in the advanced settings, troubleshooting, if I remember)

Downstream 1,024 Kbps

**Not quite enough for 1Mb profile.

Noise margin (Down/Up) 9.4 dB / 7.0 dB

**And there's why. A 9dB target margin will lose you a few hundred Kbps over a 6dB margin.

FEC Errors (Down/Up) 274 / 0

**Fine. FEC errors are corrected as part of having interleaving on.

CRC Errors (Down/Up) 0 / 2147480000

**It's a bug, igore the upstream CRC.

HEC Errors (Down/Up) nil / 0
Error Seconds (Local) 0

Also fine.

Now getting a top down speed of about 340kbps when doing a speed test on speedtest.bbmax.co.uk

**Try using speedtester.bt.com, this will tell you what profile you currently have.

To me, there are two options,

- If BT_Care offer to completely reset the profile, give you back the 6dB margin and restart training, take it. Try and plan it so you switch the router on during daylight hours, then just leave it be for the 10 days.

- Wait. If the line stays stable, the noise margin will reset back to 6db and you will then get your 1Mb profile shortly after.

Edited by deleted (Fri 18-Feb-11 12:06:10)

Hi shtu, thanks for the lowdown. To answer your question, the reason it hadn't been connected long was because I accidently restartwd the router when I moved it by grabbing the side! The reset Byron is a little too easy to press by accident. Hardly ideal given that I should be leaving it to stabilise. Having said that, the stats were virtually identical this morning before I reset the router.

I suspected it was the jump in noise margin that was hammering me too. I did do a bt speed test about an hour ago and my profile is 448 (or 400 and something) down stream so it has risen since this morning but is obviously still nowhere near where it should be. Like you say, hopefully BT_Care will offer to reset my profile and SNR. I will let youknow how I go but I don't intend to touch the router now unless someone tells me to!

Thanks
Andrew

Damn the auto correct on my iPhone! Since when did button sound like Byron? I also forgot to mention that I'm not getting disconnects anymore so the exchange issues definately seem to have stabilised...

Hopefully I should hear from BT_Care shortly.

Thanks
Andrew

From recent experience, a change of 1 step in profile tends to take around 6 to 7 days rather than the 5days for small changes suggested on Kitz's site.

Good, had me worried there. Profiles for your reference,

http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/IPprofile.htm#IP_and_bRAS...

@MHC, yep, so realistically we're looking at 2-3 weeks for this to climb back on it's own, 10 days or so for the noise margin to drop back to 6dB, and then a further week for the profile to increase to 1Mb.

And of course, that's assuming that the line stays stable through this (though it doesn't look all that bad). Really bad luck that the fault hit when it did.

In reply to a post by NorthBucksAndrew:

I also forgot to mention that I'm not getting disconnects anymore so the exchange issues definately seem to have stabilised...

And what I hope is that the disconnects have stopped because they fixed a fault, and not because the noise margin was raised.

I suspect we'll have to wait and see on that one.

Excellent! I've just check and see that i am due for Sep 30th too. At least it would see that BTo still have plans to upgrade the cabinet at some point.

Many thanks for pointing out the link!
Andrew

I can appreciate your frustration re conflicting information!

From
http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange_search
it appears that even Sam doesn't always know. He still shows my exchange as RFS (ready for service?) on 1 March 2011.

All,

Just a quick post to say thanks to everyone for all the assistance. BT_Care have been excellent and due to their intervention I think my problems may now be over. They kindly arranged to have my Target SNR reduced down to 6db again and I've been reliably connected at 1248kbps for 2 days now (would have been longer had we not had a power cut!). My IP profile has increased back up to 1000K which is as good as I can ever expect it to be living so far from the exchange.

They've asked me to monitor the connection for stability over the next few days but touch-wood it's problem solved for now.

Thanks again everyone for the assistance. I can comment that the ADSL filter was a very good purchase and for £12ish was well worth it to get my sybc up from 1024kbps to over 1200kbps. The 2Wire 2700 may well be very good although I found it took over 10mins to sync (it was rand new and still wrapped in celophane but I guess you never know...) and when it finally did so it was no quicker than the BTHH2. I'm sure it's a better device than the HH2 - I especially like the amount of data that it can reveal about the connection, for example I learned that my attenuation is well over 70db in reality. But given that my HH2 seems reliable at 1248kbps and the 2700 only cost £13 I'm happy to keep it as a spare!

Kind Regards,
Andrew