Infinity 2 thoughput slowed down - BT_Care contact please?

Hi

After 3 weeks of a steady 55megs down and 13 megs up, this morning I was down to a stonking 0.5 megs down and 0.8 megs up!

I use homeplugs and have removed my wireless cards from the boxes.

All that happened was I needed to restart the hh3 (changing some mains plugs) and I got a new IP.

The last 3 weeks I was on a 31.x.x.x and now I am on 86.x.x.x (since November I have only ever has 86.x.x.x. or 109.x.x.x).

So, where did the 3.x.x.x come from - and why did this one stay connected at the correct speed, whereas the 86 and 109 IP's always shudder to a stop after a day or so!

This problem has been around since the New Year - but I also had 2 instances in the beginning - but generally fine for the first 3 months at 40/10 - I got a good 37.5 all the time.

It would be nice if a BT_Care person could look at this for me ...

Yes, I know dozens of people are seeing the same on the BT_Care forums, but no-one wants to own it as a problem - curing with a hub reconnect is the usual solution, but this is just not acceptable in the long term.

The Indian call centre are little help - once you talk IP addresses to them you can feel them glaze over and return to their scripts

This is a technical problem which need technical people to sort out.

I am happy to work with the techs if need be.

What is odd though, is that those who have replaced the HH3 with another router have not seen issues, so this, paradoxically, points to the HH3 as the source of the problem -

Do I order a new HH3?

Cheers,

Rob

How are you measuring the throughput?

Ok, I am guessing at throughput being the issue ... if I download any file from Tbb, it just takes for ever ... yesterday I was seeing 2-4 megabyte per sec download speeds, whereas a test today before restarting was around 0.01 to 0.2 megabytes per sec.

On reconnect (ie just reconnect, NOT arestart!), back to normal.

Others have reported from their logs that the modem sync speeds do not change, but the download and upload speeds just drop away to sub 1 mbps.

just tested again ... tbb file download 2.5 MB/s download speed

vmspeed says 55megs down 12 up
bbmax shows 52 down and 9 up.

This is not an isolated instance, oodles of people are seeing it -

Is there anyway to persuade the server to give out the 31 IP address range again?

Cheers,

Rob

In reply to a post by RobFlet:

Is there anyway to persuade the server to give out the 31 IP address range again?

You can have mine - I'm currently on a 31. address and my download speeds are rubbish (unless I set multiple threads going at the same time).

I don't think it's anything to do with IP ranges.
From 14th December, last year, through to Monday this week I was on an 86. address.
Throughput was fine until 2-3 weeks ago (roughly the same time as BT started rolling out the 80/20 product).

I tried the holy grail of a modem & router reboot (apparently this "fixes" the problem) and ended up on a 31. range address. Speeds are no different from when I was on an 86 address.

I did spend a few days on an 86.163 address (God knows where BT got that dodgy range of addresses, but Magic FM wouldn't stream because it thought I was outside of the UK).

Edited by adebov (Fri 04-May-12 17:03:06)

Hi,

If it's not the IP address range - and it seems to start when the 80/.20 stuff is rolled out. Is it that the HH3 can't cope with the increased data rates from the FTTC products (it happens with 40/10 as well). But, why is it only some HH3's - mind you looking at the BT forum, there are loads of them.

I also saw my IP profile go from 66.1 up to 66.2 at one point. Now, it has dropped to 55.7 all of a sudden, and I get these slow downs again.

From what I understand, the IPP can't be reset, the DLM is a continuous process on FTTC as the DLM is managed by OR ...

UInless you know different and this CAN be done by someone ... I bet it can, just needs the OR engineer to phone through to someone.

Any other way anyone know how to get the line reset -

Cheers,

Rob

Speed has just about halved again since 12 o'clock

A router restart has got it back to 55 again ... and this time I have got a 109 IP address range ...

Maybe it's time for a Netgear ...

Cheers,

Rob

I'm not even sure the slow speeds (speeds significantly below profile) are anything to do with IP profile.
Since switching to Infinity (last August/September - can't remember which) I've had only two IP profiles - the maximum for a 40Mbps sync (when I was on the 40/10 product) and the maximum for an 80Mbps sync (since I've been on the 80/20 product).
This hasn't stopped me getting speeds of anywhere between 4Mbps and 76Mbps.

For me; rebooting the HH3 (or the cheap Chinese modem) has no effect.
Downloading multiple threads at the same time always maxes out my connection.
Downloading a single thread can give speeds anywhere between 4 & 76Mbps.

To me; it always looks less like router/modem/server issues and more like BT throttling single threads.
If I'm right no amount of switching IP range, rebooting routers or swapping Home-Hubs for Netgears will fix the problem. Switching to Sky Fibre might.

Hi Ade,

When on the 40/10 in November until I switched, I was on IPP 40/10, and got 37.5 and 8.6 up.

Now on the 80/20, I am now on IPP 55/20, but was onmuch more a little while back.

Like you I can get (have had) speeds from 0.5 megs up tp 64 megs (although now my max is 50!).

I DO find reconnecting the router fixes a low d/l speed. The upload never seems to be affected - and this also seems to go with throttling eh?

SO, after a link has been up for "x days" do they then throttle it down until you get a new IP issued? And it starts all over again?

Problem here is that there are people who DO NOT see this problem at all and have stable high speed always lines! Many use a different router.

Given I know the loss on my line is around 8-9 db (from OR readings a little while back, I would have expected a better IPP.) Trouble is I cannot find out my sync rate without bodging the modem. The OR people check the sync with their box of tricks ...

I think I may give India a call and get an engineer out and see if we can get the IPP reset somehow ... don't mind a new "training period" - if it goes the same way, then I know I can rule out a number of things.

Sigh ................

Just wish BT would own the problem - the call centre just says "restarting the router is normal" ... NO IT ISN'T ...

Cheers,

Rob

PS Still, it's better than the 135k-160k I got before with BT and 3-4 megs with O2.

When you say "reconnecting the router" do you mean the Home Hub or the Huawei modem?
If you're just rebooting the Home Hub (and that fixes the problem) I can't see your problem is related to the line itself, BT throttling, IP address or anything else (other than a dodgy Home Hub, or it slowing your connection if too many sessions - e.g. bit-torrent - are open).

In any case I can't envisage an ISP throttling system that purposely throttles your speed back, starting several days after allocation of an IP address, then releasing the throttle when you reconnect and are given a new IP. That kind of throttling action (especially for Infinity products) would eventually result in almost every single Infinity customer being throttled (because most of us never see reconnects unless we instigate them - simply because VDSL2, over very short lines, is so stable - for example; before the 80/20 upgrade I once kept s solid connection, and IP address for 11 weeks and saw no sign of throttling).

These speed drops are something new (only noticed in the last few weeks).
It can't be just a coincidence that they started at pretty much the same time as BT rolled out their 80/20 product.

It's clear, to me, we are experiencing throttling (presumably because BT didn't forward plan and get enough additional backbone, or exchange back-haul, leading up to the 80/20 roll-out).
I'm sure there are a number of BT fans out there who will go to great lengths to insist this isn't happening (quotes like "it isn't happening to me, so therefore there's no problem" are sure to appear).

As the slow speeds aren't affecting all of us, but there are enough of us affected (most of us connecting at full 80/20) to suggest something is going on.
It could be on an exchange by exchange basis (indicating certain exchanges are running out of back-haul). It could even be down to individual cabinets.
But sure as eggs is eggs, whenever peak time starts speeds drop.

My speeds plummeted after around 5pm today. At 4:31pm I was getting 74Mbps from the Manchester Xilo server for Speedtest.net - at 5:03pm (only 32 minutes later) I got this.
Ever since 5pm my speeds (to the same test server) have been all over the place (7 minutes after the 5:03pm test I got 56Mbps, then 9 minutes later I got 36Mbps).
I'm now (at 9pm) getting 16Mbps download.

At all times I can max out my line with multi-thread downloads (indicating line speed/profile is not being affected and the low speed is a throttle per download thread).

You'll note the ping is constant (at 10ms) - I've rarely seen anything else to the Manchester server, so it's clear we're not suffering from congestion (which normally affects pings quite badly).

It's throttling; pure & simple (to stop the network from becoming congested).
Now the BT fan-boys slated Entanet (some time back) when they operated a similar system (variable throttling to protect pings and prevent network overload - what I'm seeing now is an almost exact copy of the effects of Entanet's variable throttling/management system).
In actual fact; I quite like the idea of this type of throttling if (and ONLY IF) it's a temporary measure, to protect pings (high pings badly affect gaming, streaming, etc.) whilst an ISP waits to upgrade their network.
My worry is BT will continue with this system!

I will deliberately keep my current IP and I won't reboot the HH3 or the modem and I'll put money on my speedtest results going right back up after peak time ends.

As for rebooting; it's quite possible a modem reboot (resulting in a change of IP) may fool BT's throttling system (for a while), but I wouldn't recommend repeated modem reboots (or resyncs) especially for those of you connecting below maximum sync - you all remember how flaky BT's DLM is with ADSL. What's to say repeated resyncs on FTTC isn't going to result in BT's DLM punishing you for having an unstable line?

Edited by adebov (Fri 04-May-12 20:59:53)

Ade,

Just going into the hub and disconnecting from internet and then connecting. This gets a new IP, but does not affect the modem sync etc, and I would suggest does not impinge on the DLM either. I leave the modem on all the time, and have only rebooted it a couple of times since November.

Interestingly, I did reboot it today. And my IPP has already risen. I'll check again and see what gives. BT says 44/8.54 megs and IPP 57 ...

To Xilo Manchester, ping 25ms, 54/13 megs ...

This via homeplugs, so I guess things may be a little better with a direct ethernet link.

So, so far so good ...

Rob

It is possible (if in the process of rebooting and getting a new IP) your IP profile changes, you may well see an immediate change in speed.

What I am seeing (and many others are seeing) is massive changes in speed whilst having a constant (maximum) IP profile, simply caused by time of day.
Today I was getting maximum results from Speedtest.net before 5pm and down to one-seventh maximum speed after 5pm.

Hmmm ... that's not good.

But, it begs the question ... e.g. why am I not seeing it, but then why has my connection dropped to 0.5 megs on some occassions ... the IPP is still the same.
Uploads not affected. Will stay low until a reconnect ...

Wierd goings on methinks ...

Ropb

You could hack the modem and monitor the stats, as suggested here:

In reply to a post by Adsl24:

Just unlock it, it takes 2 minutes and does not affect anything.

http://huaweihg612hacking.files.wordpress.com/2011/1...

https://docs.google.com/#folders/0B6wW18mYskvBZDE0Ym...

Graphs are here http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/fibre/t/4120417-fib...

Edited by deleted (Sat 05-May-12 09:24:39)

This is how to contact the BT Customer care mods http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/bt/t/4120383-re-bt-...

Preamble...

I can confirm the low speed (of single threads) issue is absolutely not related to IP address.

Having noted my current speed (of an 80Mbps connection), again for single thread downloads, is ridiculously low (TBB speedtester comes out at around 3.5Mbps - but it generally gives me about half the result from the BT and other speedtesters - TBB test download files are also around 3.5Mbps), I tried your trick (even though I said I wouldn't - I was too interested to see if it worked) and rebooted the HH3.
I now have an IP address in the 86 range (instead of the 31 range) and download speeds are exactly the same (slower than my old 4.5Mbps ADSL2+ connection with BE).

BT speedtester currently giving a result of 8Mbps from my (no surprises) maximum IP profile of 77.43Mbps.
Speedtest.net is about the same.
Zero point doing the "last test required" on the BT tester as the only reason it's under performing is THEY are throttling.

BT's throttling is particularly bad this morning.
Even twenty threads via Usenet is not maxing out my line.
So, in order to prove the total throughput of my 77.43Mbps IP profile is where it should be (around 75Mbps - give or take) I now have twenty Usenet threads and twelve download manager threads going at the same time.
Guess what?... My total useable throughput is 74.6Mbps (according to TBBmeter).
This is made up of 33.3Mbps from the 12 download manager threads (downloading a TBB test file) - so just under 2Mbps per thread, and around 41Mbps from Usenet (just over 2Mbps per thread).

With the TBB download test completed, Usenet total has gone up to around 55Mbps (2.7Mbps per thread).

There honestly doesn't seem to be any point in ringing India (there's no way this will be on their script, so they'll probably tell me I need a new Home Hub, or something equally stupid).
There's also very little point BT_care (on here) getting involved, as I highly doubt they've got the authority to purchase additional transit capacity (be it on a national, exchange, or cabinet level), nor do I suspect they have the authority to switch off the throttling.

This really is down to BT (they need to spend some more money and buy sufficient capacity to actually carry the double speed they're rolling out).

Actual point...

I think your problem may well be the HH3 (especially if the download speed is down at 0.5Mbps, whilst the IP profile remains unchanged).
A reboot/reconnect may well kick-start the HH3. The fact you get a new IP [at the same time] is probably irrelevant. I suspect it's the act of rebooting the HH, rather than the reallocation of a new IP, which is temporarily fixing your problem.

For your problem, you may actually get a result from calling India (the need for a replacement Home Hub may well be on their script)...Good luck!

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

You could hack the modem and monitor the stats,

Certainly quicker than waiting for the BT speedtester to complete (at a speed of 0.5Mbps) and advise you of the IP profile .

Of course knowing the IP profile is of some help (only way to get this is from the BT speedtester) as it eliminates a dodgy profile as the cause of very slow speeds.
In my case I get anywhere between 2.5Mbps and 75Mbps (dependant on time of day) from a constant 77.43Mbps IP profile (never shifts from maximum).

In reply to a post by adebov:

There honestly doesn't seem to be any point in ringing India (there's no way this will be on their script, so they'll probably tell me I need a new Home Hub, or something equally stupid).

There's also very little point BT_care (on here) getting involved, as I highly doubt they've got the authority to purchase additional transit capacity (be it on a national, exchange, or cabinet level), nor do I suspect they have the authority to switch off the throttling.

Others have reported a successful resolution by ringing India to raise faults and also by Contacting BT Care as suggested.

If you don't raise it, how do you expect it to get resolved?

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

This is how to contact the BT Customer care mods http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/bt/t/4120383-re-bt-...

They actually can help (certainly more so than calling India - which is, inevitably, a total waste of time).
BT_care helped me out, when Openreach totally screwed up my original Infinity order (back in August last year, when OR made a total mess of provisioning a new line, with broadband - apparently that's one of the most difficult things to get out of BT, mainly because they seem largly incapable of provisioning a line and broadband at the same time...they - either BT retail, or BT OR, forgot the broadband order).

BT_care made sure the original order was totally cancelled and money refunded (the idiots over the phone - presumably India - were completely useless and I was starting to get bills from a line which wasn't even connected - trying to get the script jockeys to understand I shouldn't have to pay line rental, for a line which was never connected, seemed to be impossible - how hard is it to understand you shouldn't have to pay for a service they never installed - how stupid do you have to be, not to understand this).

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

If you don't raise it, how do you expect it to get resolved?

Have you ever managed to get an ISP to switch off their throttling by calling their contact centre?

It has to be throttling.
How else do you explain 75Mbps download speeds out of peak hours and 2.5 to 8Mbps speeds during peak hours (i.e. after 5pm weekdays and all weekends).
If I ramp up the number of threads I can easily max out my line at any time of day (which proves it's not a line problem).
The constant 77.43Mbps IP profile proves it's not a profiling issue.
A constant IP address for almost 12 weeks proves my line is stable (with a large ISP, like BT, the only way to hold an IP address for this length of time is not to re-sync or reboot the HH).

The only explanation (other than throttling to prevent network overload) is there's a peak time bad-boy speed cap (I did download quite a lot last month), which could explain why the majority seem to be unaffected.

I wouldn't have a clue how to explain this to India and I'm 100% certain they either wouldn't understand, or wouldn't listen and they'd try to make it fit number 86b (sub-section 4.1.2a) in their script.

BT_care (on here) are probably the only ones able to help, and I'm not yet at the stage where I need them to look at it (there are plenty of other people with real problems).
I maintain we only need about 4Mbps for general web-browsing and streaming, plus most of my downloads are either from the office VPN, or from Usenet (both of which hit the maximum available speed), so for now I'm generally happy to ignore the per-thread speed cap.

I'd originally put the problem down to being a local/cabinet throttle - a bit like QOS on a home router, if you want to protect the local end of the network I imagine it's quite a simple task for BT to switch on a bit of QOS at the cabinet/exchange - which may well only be a throttle per thread.

Did ask at the wholesale level and got a its your AV/kit/spoeedtester response.

Getting anything out of BT Retail on its traffic management is like getting blood out of a stone

They say, insist even, that the product is totally unthrottled except for P2P between the hours of 4pm-12 pm. To me, that means P2P is unthrottled only from noon till 16:00.

Anyway, because of this insistence, it appears they consider all problems that look like throttling are in fact faults which must be reported. They will then send new equipment and then send engineers, before escalating it to more specialist teams within BT.

The fault will eventually be resolved.

But you have to report the fault first.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

They say, insist even, that the product is totally unthrottled except for P2P between the hours of 4pm-12 pm. To me, that means P2P is unthrottled only from noon till 16:00.

Not quite.
From their Infinity terms & conditions (easily available with a few seconds Googling), they say: -

We may also take action to manage the network's performance during periods where there is a high demand. Please refer to the 'Help' section at www.bt.com/broadbandusagepolicy for more details.

The 'Help' section in the 'broadbandusagepolicy' says: -

To protect the performance of the network and to ensure the best experience for all users of the service, at peak times we may manage the speed of non-time critical applications such as P2P.

I think the key points are "We may also take action to manage the network's performance" and "we may manage the speed of non-time critical applications such as P2P" (my bold).

This clearly doesn't say "totally unthrottled except for P2P" (any chance of a link where you got that from?).
It says, reading between the lines, "BT may manage the speed of any non-time critical application". This could easily include: -
General web traffic
Usnet downloads
E-mail
Basically anything other than gaming and streaming could be viewed as "non-time critical".
EDIT: And VOIP

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

The fault will eventually be resolved.

Good one. Thanks for my first laugh of the morning

Edited by adebov (Sat 05-May-12 11:27:02)

Uh?
Isn't 12pm usually regarded as midnight?

To me, it depends on if you regard the following 12:01 as am or pm

Would you have 12.00pm followed minute later by 12.01am?

I don't see any problem answering those.

Would you have 12.00pm followed minute later by 12.01am?

No, I wouldn't. Do BT?

To me, it depends on if you regard the following 12:01 as am or pm

There is no such thing as 12.01am.

There is no such thing as 12.01am.

???

It seems there is that convention in the US, particularly for legal documents. Here the convention is to use 24-hour clock notation for such. Have a look at any insurance policy you have.

Any discussion of the subject clearly has to depend on the context of the particular case. Here we start with BatBoy questioning whether 12pm is midnight or midday. The context in whatever BT statement he refers to, (which is not known so far), clearly means midnight.

Good point, we don't know exactly what the BT statement lists.

But in reference to 12:01am or 00:01, I always just thought that if you're using 12-hour clocks you have to add am or pm, for obvious reasons. I prefer 24-hour and yes, most formal documents use that system.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Isn't 12pm usually regarded as midnight?

No, the usual convention is that midnight is 12am and midday is 12pm.

a.m is ante meridiem. p.m. is post meridiem. 12 noon is the meridiem. By definition noon cannot be either ante or post meridiem.

As I said before, the context makes it clear that midnight is the "12" in question, not midday. All I was/am trying to do is show that all 24 hours of the day are covered by the mystery BT statement.

Maybe the OP hopes for some support here from us, in his appeal to BT_Care, instead of a Free Chat style pointelss debate on something which has been an issue for many hundreds of years !

Logic would suggest 12:01pm comes after 12:00pm and 12:01pm is certainly not a minute after midnight. Therefore to assume 12:00pm is mid-day and 12:00am is midnight is quite logical.

Then again; you're quite correct in saying 12 noon cannot be either am, nor pm.

Maybe we should all use the 24 hour clock and take my German made cooker as a guide (it goes 23:58, 23:59, 24:00, 00:01) so, apparently, 00:00 doesn't exist either!

Re my (UK) insurance policy mention earlier, many are 00:01 year n - 23:59 year (n+1) minus a day.So if it's life insurance, make sure no-one turns off the life-support equipment in the two-minute gap. Your relatives would be less than happy.

I think it's the same for most motor and home policies (always start at 00:01 and end at 23:59).
So either they can't work out when 12pm (or 12am) is, or those two minutes (one either side of midnight) must be an extremely dangerous time of day (to be excluded from most insurance policies).

Mental note - when drunk out of my skull and whacked out on weed, I must not drive home at midnight and crash into the front door

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Re my (UK) insurance policy mention earlier, many are 00:01 year n - 23:59 year (n+1) minus a day.So if it's life insurance, make sure no-one turns off the life-support equipment in the two-minute gap. Your relatives would be less than happy.

LOL, mine with Direct Line I *think* is 00:00 to 23:59 - so only 1 minute gap with them

NPL should know:

In reference to www.npl.co.uk/science-technology/time-frequency/time/faqs/is-midnig...:

Is midnight 12 a.m. or 12 p.m.? (FAQ - Time)

There is no confusion when using the words 12 noon (or mid-day) and 12 midnight, although the use of 12 midnight can raise the question of 'which day?'. To avoid confusion in, for example, an insurance certificate, it is always better to use the 24-hour clock, when 12:00 is 12 noon and, for example, 24:00 Sunday or 00:00 Monday both mean 12 midnight Sunday/Monday. It is common in transport timetables to use 23:59 Sunday or 00:01 Monday (in this example), or 11:59 p.m. or 12:01 a.m., to further reduce confusion.

There are no standards established for the meaning of 12 a.m. and 12 p.m. It is often said that 12 a.m. Monday is midnight on Monday morning and 12 p.m. is mid-day. This puts all the times beginning with 12 and ending with a.m. in the same one-hour block, similarly with those ending with p.m. It can also be argued that by the time you have seen a clock showing 12:00 at mid-day it is already post meridiem, and similarly at midnight it is already ante meridiem. Times in the first hour of the day are sometimes given as, for example, 00:47 a.m., with 00:00 a.m. corresponding to midnight, but with a time twelve hours later given as 12:47 p.m.

Another convention sometimes used is that, since 12 noon is by definition neither ante meridiem (before noon) nor post meridiem (after noon), then 12 a.m. refers to midnight at the start of the specified day (00:00) and 12 p.m. to midnight at the end of that day (24:00). Given this ambiguity, the terms 12 a.m. and 12 p.m. should be avoided.

whereas legal firms subscribe to the 12am = midnight:

Evening Legal Secretary (5pm - 12am) - Trendy Law Firm! job ...

Temporary Graveyard Legal Secretary (12am - 8am) job search ...

Legal Evening Document Production Operator � 4pm � 12am job ...

Service Desk Analyst (Evening Shift 4pm - 12am)

EDIT: BT, as quoted by BatBoy, have plainly got it wrong, ambiguous and/or unclear

Edited by XRaySpeX (Sun 06-May-12 23:20:14)

At least, in your edit, you come back to what matters. Nobody else seems interested. The quote from an unknown source is

They say, insist even, that the product is totally unthrottled except for P2P between the hours of 4pm-12 pm.

To which he adds

To me, that means P2P is unthrottled only from noon till 16:00.

I submit that the only possible sensible way to interpret the "BT" quote is that, (give or take a minute to avoid ambiguity), P2P is throttled between 16:00 and 23:59, and unthrottled between 00:01 and 15:59.

Personally, I believe the quote is from someone talking tripe. Rare though that is from ISP support.

Yea, it shouldn't have been an afterthought. I think too fast