A quicky - noise on the line

So I've had ongoing problems for a while now. But haven't bothered reporting them because I couldn't reproduce them on the test socket. Now I'm getting noise on my phone line, even on the test socket (quiet line test).

I just reported a fault using BT's phone fault checker

and get:

Results of line test
We cannot detect a problem with this line.
It may be caused by a faulty phone or equipment.

There is no equipment connected when I do this except the telephone, the interstitial faceplate is removed. Get a fuzzy, type of interference sound. Naturally, everytime someone rings, my broadband gets disconnected. I'm connected at 16/1mbit. was 30/5mbit when I signed up.

Suggestions?

Is phone noisy at test socket when modem is unplugged from line and switched off and no microfilters used?

Ring them and report a phone fault. Don't mention broadband and hopefully they'll get an engineer out.

took them 2 years (no exaggeration) & umpteen visits to cure mine.
Engineers always said that they cannot trace it if fault is not apparent at the time of their visit which i could understand
Finally found pair touching another on back end of board in cabinet causing a high voltage so they said

If you have done a line test, then get them to do one they will be unable to detect the fault - because your line test will clear the fault, temporarily.

A joint at the top of your pole is cracked and needs resoldering, or something has come loose in the cabinet.

If it is now happening reliably, insist they send an engineer (they will threaten you with a bill, since it costs them over £200 to send a an engineer so will do all they can to talk you out of it). As someone else said, describe it as a phone fault not broadband.

I have generally found that once an engineer turns up they are pretty helpful. The key is to get someone a bit more local than Calcutta on the case

In reply to a post by ian_c:

A joint at the top of your pole is cracked and needs resoldering, ...

Possibly a joint at the pole but they're not soldered!

Sorry, I don't understand that first bit. I went through BT's webpage thing, and as soon as I clicked submit, for the drop down box which was something like 'noisy' fault, I got the message back that everything was a-okay. How could they have known that so quickly?

Anyway, the issue I have is obvious. Disconnecting the internal wiring definitely helps alleviate the noise on the line to some degree. When I do that, it still crackles, but intermittantly, and more faintly. The issue is intermittant in general. So how grave does the fault have to be before I get them to take me seriously, and not be directed from South Waziristan to, if I am lucky, Calcutta. They will just say, it's fine, because as you say, it's in their interests to do so. What I need, is more evidence, that the broadband is affected, for example, but you guys are telling me to not do that. So the evidence I have, is that there is some noise on the phone line, which is harldy audible when everything is disconnected. Wont they just say, that's fine, a bit of noise is normal?

Now I don't want to be liable for a 130£ bill, because frankly, I don't have that kind of money to fritter away. What will they do if they find no fault, and deem it to be mostly an internal wiring problem. Would they at least fix the internal wiring, given the sum?

As for Andrew's question, yes, the problem still manifests itself when everything is disconnected.

So really, to summarise, my problem is threefold.

How do I get them to take me seriously.
If their test shows no issue, then, is that crackling indeed fine?
The internal wiring is obviously a problem. Will they fix that in any case? How much is it to get that sorted in general?

"Connection time: 0 days, 00:36:09
Downstream: 7.71 Mbps
Upstream: 799 Kbps"

Nice, definitely worth the 23£ per month...

In reply to a post by imbsuk:

Now I don't want to be liable for a 130£ bill, because frankly, I don't have that kind of money to fritter away. What will they do if they find no fault, and deem it to be mostly an internal wiring problem.

I had loads of visits and was never charged despite the warning they gave me each time an engineer was booked. You must stress to the engineers who visit that it is intermittent then they shouldn't charge you unless of course they prove its an internal wiring problem.

A joint at the top of your pole is cracked and needs resoldering, or something has come loose in the cabinet.

Think about it logically, how the hell is an engineer going to be soldering at the top of a pole ???

You also seem to be forgetting all the other joints between the DP and the cabinet, not to mention the E-side and exchange terminations.

What is the problem with resoldering at the top of the pole? Genuine question.

Mains to hit soldering iron, the extra layers of H&S around having a skin burning tool operating at height, risk of heat setting light to tar or dry wood of the pole

Beyond the I've never seen mention of solder joints in the Openreach network

Are there no such things as portable soldering irons? How do oil rig divers cope?

There's a few block terminals out there where the feeding cable is terminated by solder and the distribution is by screw.

These would have been wired up on the ground simply because in those days the soldering iron had to be heated up on a stove and also some of them were packed with beeswax after you had wired them up.

There are similar cabinet assemblies where the tail is fitted on soldered tags at the back and screw terminations at the front. This was done at the factory. paper insulated cables were then packed with beeswax, Polythene cables not so.

Most of the eside network is paper insulated with twisted and sleeved connections. These were supposed to be tip soldered but rarely were in practice.

No idea, but remember cutting torches that work underwater and its not a cheap job

Apart from the various H&S aspects mentioned, I have occasionally had to solder joints outside - but NOT up a pole.

A major problem is that the slightest draught/air movement cools the soldering iron rapidly, either resulting in a "dry joint" or no joint effectively.

Doors opened to allow air to circulate in the factory during hot weather were another source of draughts, along with temporary (domestic-size) fans.

When I first tried soldering outside, I was amazed at how little air movement rapidly cooled both the soldering iron and also the wires etc involved, as the latter have to be at or slightly above the eutectic melting point of the solder and of the flux, to get the proper "wetting" of the joint.

To succeed, you need good draught protection and generally a soldering iron at least "one size" bigger than you would use inside normally, eg 65 Watt rather than 25 Watt Solons if anyone remembers them.

This also applies if you are trying to solder in a very cold environment, eg the laboratory where there was ice in the plumbing most of the day and we had to wear outdoor clothing to keep warm. Terrific problems with the water loads!

Hence the major use of Crimp Joints and now IDC Joints in phone wiring, so that heat is not involved at all.

And generally a lot safer, quicker and more effective.

Edited by deleted (Mon 11-Aug-14 13:51:13)

Also the temperatures and materials involved.

I doubt very much whether conventional soldering is even attempted or would succeed, due to the cooling effects of the water.

The cutting torches operate at a very much higher temperature, the metals involved both in material having a much higher melting point; and dimensionally much more robust.

Think about it logically, how the hell is an engineer going to be soldering at the top of a pole ???

I am simply going on what I watched the BT chap do when he fixed my line.

(The helpline had tried very hard to dissuade me for calling an engineer. Once there he identified the problem immediately and it took about half an hour (including climbing and faffing time) to fix.

Whether it involved soldering I really could give two hoots. Or even a single hoot. The joint was cracked and letting in water. He fixed it.

Ta. Makes sense.

Are there no such things as portable soldering irons?

Yes there are. But as Eckie points out, no soldered joints on overhead blocks.

....

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Are there no such things as portable soldering irons?

Yes there are. But as Eckie points out, no soldered joints on overhead blocks.

Apart from BT 13, 14, 17 and 42

Evening Partial

Can you give the Forum some idea of their sizes and the typical sort of work they would be applied to etc?

For example, are they designed for indoor or outdoor work?

In reply to a post by gomezz:

Are there no such things as portable soldering irons? How do oil rig divers cope?

There's also butane powered irons, some no bigger than a slightly fat pen, something like this

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Professional-Butane-Solderin...

I still have a few different sized ones giving a wide range of power for different tasks lying in the back of one of my store cupboards. Also when outside, I had a clip on cover or wind shield that surrounded most of the joint or area being soldered and in all but the highest winds worked quite well. Though this was nothing to do with BT.

You have also had battery operated ones available since the 70s or so. Though the early ones didn't last very long nor were they very powerful and I haven't used one since.

Edited by deleted (Tue 12-Aug-14 00:30:01)

Interesting the Flame Temperature given as 1300 Degrees Centigrade, compared to the Melting Point of Eutectic Tin/Lead Solder of 183 C.

A lot of Heat "in reserve", so more able to contend with draughts and winds, more akin to Blow Torches, rather than the less powerful Electric Soldering Irons typical of electronics factories etc, where excess heat can rapidly make a mess of particularly PCBs, including the copper track adhesion, wire insulation etc.

Many are the PCBs I have seen destroyed when the "temperature-controlled" slim irons were introduced in the 1960s, due to the operatives trying to get the joint to heat sufficiently, the flux to clean and the solder to take with the correct "wetting" action.

Acknowledging that more recent solders have moved away from eutectic by reducing the proportion of Lead, thus increasing the MP slightly.

I also have a Battery operated one, with two blades (almost like an IDC connector but insulated from one another), which rely on the current from the battery actually directly causing the wire/s and solder to "self-generate" the required heat.

Used it very rarely; but was handy on those few occasions; and did not take up much space in luggage (a fattish spectacle case in size) - wonder what would happen at airports now!

Addition
To go to another extreme, I was involved with an early Wave-Soldering Machine in the 1950s.

A fair-sized bath of hot, liquid solder, with a pump to create a linear wave of solder across the width, there being a conveyor mechanism on which the component-loaded PCBs were placed and carried along over the wave, so that the wave crest flattened slightly on the underside etc.

Getting the temperature and the conveyor speed correct, were critical to the successful soldering of the myriad of joints, otherwise "Fried PCBS for Lunch", at considerable cost.

Edited by deleted (Tue 12-Aug-14 09:01:55)

Depends on the tip you attach. Some tips, well usually the absence of a tip , offers blow torch mode, when you get the 1300 temp. But other tips are more like standard soldering iron tips and just as easily changed for different jobs. With this type of tip attached the gas burns in a catalytic chamber behind the tip so heating it so there is little or no external flame with a soldering type tip in place. Once you get used to them the control can be as fine as other types of adjustable irons.

It's not so obvious in the first link I sent you as it is a very slim design. However, the catalytic unit is more obvious in this one being the 'space capsule' behind the tip and the pure flame head can be seen along side for comparison;

http://www.amazon.co.uk/SODIAL-Cordless-Butane-Solde...

Re battery ones, the tips on the Weller I had was like that with the spade type connectors.

Thanks - Incredible Prices!

So the only one of those you come across at the top of a pole, sometimes, is a 42. And the termination will be a screw type affair.

Screw on the distribution side, soldered on the exchange side.

And you are wrong, I specifically listed soldered external Block Terminals that you would find up a pole and left out soldered Block Terminals that were for solely internal distribution.

..... but no one solders joints up poles, which was my original point.

For some values of "point".