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Think I posted about this around this time last year but to cut a long story short my sync speed dropped from 79999 to 73999 about a year ago for no good reason and sicne I live extremely close to the exchange feel a bit miffed off I am not getting the absolute maximum out of my connection.
Is trying to get BT to log a fault about this going to be like pushing sand up a hill or do I stand a chance?
ZeN Fibre Unlimited 2
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How good are you at moving sand up a hill?
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The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
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Not sure you're going to get BT to do anything just for the sake of being able to download at an extra 240K per second.
Also I doubt you will be able to notice the difference day to day, maybe on large downloads you would save a minute, but that's all.
If you have drops of around 20meg then I would be worried.
Edited by robertcrowther (Sun 20-May-18 12:45:01)
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Not sure you're going to get BT to do anything just for the sake of being able to download at an extra 240k per second.
Also I doubt you will be able to notice the difference day to day, maybe on large downloads you would save a minute, but that's all.
If you have drops of around 20meg then I would be worried.
Suggest you check your maths ... 79,999 to 73,999 is 6,000 or 6 Mbps.
And if his Max Achievable was significant higher than 80,000 then the drop is even worse. For example a Max achievable of 98Mbps to actual sync of 79Mpbs is a drop of 19Mbps and may be cause for concern even though sync may have dropped just 1Mbps.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
M H C
taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Edited by MHC (Sun 20-May-18 11:21:29)
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You don't stand much of a chance.
If one of my neighbours turns their modem OFF, my sync (or max achievable) jumps by around 6Mbps and when they turn ON, it drops.
What are your current stats?
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M H C
taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
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It depends.
It sounds like you've been banded by DLM, and this usually (in my experiences) happens due to one of the following:
- A significant SNRM variation
- Rapid re-syncs in a short timeframe
If your ISP is part of the DLM reset trial for FTTC then you might be able to put in a DLM reset request. Whether it's honored is another question though. One of my FTTC connections recently became banded at 49 Mbps downstream and it could sync between 54 to 57 Mbps normally. I contacted AAISP who then contacted TalkTalk Business but at the time they weren't part of the trial so it took some time before a request was able to be finally put in (became part of the trial I believe). I had an OGEA reference earlier in the afternoon and then later that afternoon my banded was removed (DLM reset done).
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HAHAHAHA. Sorry, but no such thing as an IP profile of 80meg
That's why it's only 240k extra as it takes into account of the highest IP profile.
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HAHAHAHA. Sorry, but no such thing as an IP profile of 80meg
That's why it's only 240k extra as it takes into account of the highest IP profile. I suggest you think again, as you will be torn to pieces over that  . Both facts and rudeness.
Alternatively, post the arithmetic LOL.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. 200GB. Sync 68940/13151Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6Edited by RobertoS (Sun 20-May-18 11:53:42)
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So you're also saying there is an IP profile of 80meg? Are you very sure of this as I thought the highest at the moment is 77.35Mbps?
Could you provide any links to any info on this 80meg?
Side note: I was being polite in my first post, but was told this "Suggest you check your maths" I think that's very rude.
Edited by robertcrowther (Sun 20-May-18 11:59:12)
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HAHAHAHA. Sorry, but no such thing as an IP profile of 80meg
That's why it's only 240k extra as it takes into account of the highest IP profile.
And the relevancy of that is? NOTHING.
Sync speeds of 79,999 or 79,998 or 80,000 are extremely common.
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M H C
taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
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If you are using something like a speedtester or downloading a file from the internet then the speed is going to be partly determined by the IP profile and not by the sync speed, so yes it does have relevance.
Edited by robertcrowther (Sun 20-May-18 12:10:23)
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Read the very first post ...
his sync speed has droped by 6Mbps, so his IP profile will have dropped by a similar amount.
The OP was getting 79.999 with a profile of 77.35, he now gets a sync of 73.999 and his IP profile will be around 71.5
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M H C
taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
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Assuming G.INP is not active, which is probably the case in the circumstances but makes a minuscule difference even if it is, the OP�s original IP Profile would have been 77,431kbps.
On his current sync it will be 71,623kbps.
Quite apart from the fact that, as MHC has just remarked, the IP Profile is completely irrelevant.
Your turn  .
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. 200GB. Sync 68940/13151Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6 |
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Read the very first post ...
his sync speed has droped by 6Mbps, so his IP profile will have dropped by a similar amount.
The OP was getting 79.999 with a profile of 77.35, he now gets a sync of 73.999 and his IP profile will be around 71.5
I doubt his IP profile will be 71.5 (unless there is a real problem with the line) I'm sure it will be a lot closer to the 73.
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Assuming G.INP is not active, which is probably the case in the circumstances but makes a minuscule difference even if it is, the OP�s original IP Profile would have been 77,431kbps.
On his current sync it will be 71,623kbps.
Quite apart from the fact that, as MHC has just remarked, the IP Profile is completely irrelevant.
Your turn .
I can see why so many people have stopped posting on this forum as there is far too much childish behaviour and rudeness
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You are the one being rude, with your HAHAHAHA post.
I have given you the precise IP Profiles, rather than the approximates MHC did. But IP Profile does not control the sync.
Even if it did, how do you arrive at only a 240k per second difference? Show us the arithmetic. Even if you mean 240K bytes per second not 240Kbps it is rubbish. The difference is much greater than that.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. 200GB. Sync 68940/13151Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6 |
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You are the one being rude, with your HAHAHAHA post.
I have given you the precise IP Profiles, rather than the approximates MHC did. But IP Profile does not control the sync.
Even if it did, how do you arrive at only a 240k per second difference? Show us the arithmetic. Even if you mean 240K bytes per second not 240Kbps it is rubbish. The difference is much greater than that.
So laughing at someone being rude to you is a bad thing? I believe it's better to laugh at someone being rude to you than to just blast them. In this instance you took offence to that and you went into troll mode
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Best IP profile for 73,999 sync would be 71,705
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The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
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Asking someone to check their maths is not rude, in this case those questioning are right to do so to avoid others stumbling onto incorrect conclusions.
The Internet is one of those places where things can every easily come across as abrupt and rude when that was never the person intention.
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The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
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What are the full stats from your router ?
It is most likely to be cross talk causing the issue, but it might be just a stuck DLM profile.
Edited by Zarjaz (Sun 20-May-18 14:51:51)
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Your exchange could be on Pluto and you would still get the same speed.
It's the distance to the cabinet that matters...
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I suspect that the sand uphill analogy is correct. The figure that you quote will be well with the margins of what BT say is acceptable. I am on 20/80 and my normal is 18/68 which seems to me quite reasonable.
Cheers, Les.
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To be fair to the OP, it does look as if the line was banded some time ago, though on a cursory check I can't see where he posted about it previously. Perhaps it was within someone else's thread.
I think Zarjaz is probably right, ( if that 73,999Kbps always occurs on a re-sync), and the banding is not going to self-cancel.
I'm assuming a re-sync has been done within the last month or so.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. 200GB. Sync 68940/13151Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6 |
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Hi Bob,
You may be right (and Zarjaz, too) - but the OP was wondering whether BT would regard it as a problem, that they would be obliged to fix: I don't think they will, as the "drop" in performance would still leave the available performance within their allowable performance figures.
Trust all's well with you?
Cheers, Les.
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It also depends what the OP means by BT. The evidence so far is that he is with Zen, so may be referring to Openreach. MrSaffron will of course know, from the IP address.
Edit: Unless he is now with AAISP on TT Business. But they weren�t at all interested in doing anything about my banding.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. 200GB. Sync 68940/13151Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6Edited by RobertoS (Sun 20-May-18 22:08:39)
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| Text | 1
23
45
67
89
1011
1213
1415
1617
1819
2021
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| Line Statistics
����� Downstream������������ Upstream���������������� Actual Rate 73999 Kbps 19999 Kbps
Attainable Rate 84776 Kbps 28755 Kbps Path Mode Fast Fast
Interleave Depth 1 1 Actual PSD 0. 4 dB 13. 0 dB
Near End����������������� Far End������������������� Trellis ON ON
Bitswap ON ON ReTx 1 1
SNR Margin 8 dB 10 dB Attenuation 12 dB 12 dB
CRC 0 100905 FECS 0 s 5167 s
ES 0 s 81281 s SES 0 s 0 s
LOSS 0 s 0 s UAS 30 s 35166 s
HEC Errors 0 0 RS Corrections 0 0
LOS Failure 0 0 LOF Failure 0 0
LPR Failure 0 0 NCD Failure 0 0
LCD Failure 0 0 NFEC 32 32
RFEC 16 16 LYSMB 16 16 |
ZeN Fibre Unlimited 2
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Thanks for the replies everyone - posted my line stats in above post in response to Zarjaz.
I've had ADSL2+ for around 5-6 years and it had always been at a sync speed of 79999 until last year, if I was with Zen or AAISP then I wouldn't have hesitated reporting it but I did enquire with BT broadband customer support and I got fobbed off by the first line so just gave up at the time as it wasn't on my priority list.
As more and more people in the house use the broadband, like MHC says that 6Mbps or so that I am missing would be useful to have!
Unfortunately, I don't have a copy of my line stats prior to the change in sync.
Edit - found my old post: http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/bt/t/4546608-sync-s...
About 3 weeks ago I experienced a 20 minute disconnection followed by about 2 days of occasional drop-outs and packet loss.
My sync speed has been 79,999 for years (since the beginning) but after this it is now at 73,999, unfortunately I don't have a record of my line stats anymore to compare what changed.
ZeN Fibre Unlimited 2
Edited by Pipexer (Sun 20-May-18 22:23:48)
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| Text | 1
23
45
67
89
1011
1213
1415
1617
1819
2021
2223
2425
2627
2829
3031
| Line Statistics
����� Downstream������������ Upstream���������������� Actual Rate 73999 Kbps 19999 Kbps
Attainable Rate 84776 Kbps 28755 Kbps Path Mode Fast Fast
Interleave Depth 1 1 Actual PSD 0. 4 dB 13. 0 dB
Near End����������������� Far End������������������� Trellis ON ON
Bitswap ON ON ReTx 1 1
SNR Margin 8 dB 10 dB Attenuation 12 dB 12 dB
CRC 0 100905 FECS 0 s 5167 s
ES 0 s 81281 s SES 0 s 0 s
LOSS 0 s 0 s UAS 30 s 35166 s
HEC Errors 0 0 RS Corrections 0 0
LOS Failure 0 0 LOF Failure 0 0
LPR Failure 0 0 NCD Failure 0 0
LCD Failure 0 0 NFEC 32 32
RFEC 16 16 LYSMB 16 16 |
Seems to be obvious that you have been banded.
84776 Attainable with just 73999 as sync. Had they been closer then,no, but at over 10Mbps almost certainly banded. 8 dB SNR again suggest there is headroom above your 73999 and an attenuation of 12 dB on a typical line would mean sync in the low 80s.
There may well have been a series of noise incidents when the banding happened and it has never been removed. They may also still be occurring so get DSLstats installed and leave it running for a couple of days to see if there are any "surprises".
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M H C
taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
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I've had ADSL2+ for around 5-6 years and it had always been at a sync speed of 79999 until last year You are on FTTC/VDSL2, not ADSL2+ which has a maximum sync of 24mbps. if I was with Zen or AAISP then I wouldn't have hesitated reporting it but I did enquire with BT broadband customer support and I got fobbed off by the first line so just gave up at the time as it wasn't on my priority list. Sig and Profile say Zen, and in my previous post I linked to where in November you said you were about to sign up to AAISP . As more and more people in the house use the broadband, like MHC says that 6Mbps or so that I am missing would be useful to have!
Unfortunately, I don't have a copy of my line stats prior to the change in sync.
Edit - found my old post: http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/bt/t/4546608-sync-s...
About 3 weeks ago I experienced a 20 minute disconnection followed by about 2 days of occasional drop-outs and packet loss.
My sync speed has been 79,999 for years (since the beginning) but after this it is now at 73,999, unfortunately I don't have a record of my line stats anymore to compare what changed. Sorry I missed your previous thread when I looked. Probably my brain went into auto-ignore with the Subject being identical to this one.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. 200GB. Sync 68940/13151Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6Edited by RobertoS (Sun 20-May-18 23:08:08)
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Seems to be obvious that you have been banded.
84776 Attainable with just 73999 as sync. Had they been closer then,no, but at over 10Mbps almost certainly banded. 8 dB SNR again suggest there is headroom above your 73999 and an attenuation of 12 dB on a typical line would mean sync in the low 80s.
There may well have been a series of noise incidents when the banding happened and it has never been removed. They may also still be occurring so get DSLstats installed and leave it running for a couple of days to see if there are any "surprises".
Appreciate you taking the time to check this for me. I don't think DSLStats works with the draytek I'm afraid, but if it helps the line is always stable - practically no loss of sync etc.
I wonder how I can get BT to remove the banding?
ZeN Fibre Unlimited 2
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Oops. Yeah I meant VDSL2. I do know the difference, promise!  VDSL2 history at this house was with Zen, then AAISP, and then moved to BT broadband.
I have a separate line with AAISP at another place hence posting about that then.
Also I don't think it is your brain, I think a forum quirk -- when looking at my previous posts I couldn't find my old post either, I had to search for "79999" to find it (as I could remember I had used the same topic). I've gone back and checked again and it is not showing in my post history on the page it should do - interesting eh?
ZeN Fibre Unlimited 2
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As others have said, it looks capped due to some past issue .....
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Getting DLM reset seems to be very hard, even though AIUI Openreach now allow up to 1000 requests (in total across all ISPs) per day by ISPs who choose to use the facility. I gather few do so choose. Or even if they do, first-line support either won�t know or don�t have the authority.
On the other hand I was told by a reliable person at an ISP that changing the underlying supplier, eg BT Wholesale to TalkTalk Business or Sky will cause it. In which case a move to uno or Pulse8broadband on TTB might work. But I would advise checking first if you consider doing that. I think uno now supply TTB on SMPF, whereas Pulse8 is MPF.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. 200GB. Sync 68940/13151Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6Edited by RobertoS (Mon 21-May-18 09:41:05)
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I suppose it depends, Andrew, whether you're using a bulldozer, a bucket or a teaspoon
Cheers, Les.
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Yeah, it depends who you speak to (if they are aware of the DLM reset procedure, well, trial). Not all ISP's are participating in it I believe. It wasn't until recently that TalkTalk Business had the facility to request a DLM reset for FTTC services.
Changing backhaul will cause a DLM reset, as well as changing package speed usually does too.
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As others have said, it looks capped due to some past issue .....
Thanks for all the replies. Appreciate it as at least I can now push the issue with BT Broadband support.
Might attempt the battle next week - will report in how it goes!!
ZeN Fibre Unlimited 2
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Good luck. I think BT Retail are part of the DLM reset trial, but even if they are it's more a question of whether you get through to someone who's willing to help and/or is aware of the procedure. Fingers crossed.
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OK attempt 1 - logged onto the web chat. Wasted about 5 minutes saying "hello", "How are you", etc etc. Then supposedly the account is under a different name (funny that since I PAY THE BILLS) - they wanted some additional information about the account so I refused as the questions were unusual.
Ironically last year I asked them to merge all the account details into one to avoid this sort of issue (I have BT mobile which is under the same login but has a different account number for some bizzare reason).
I will try again tomorrow!
ZeN Fibre Unlimited 2
Edited by Pipexer (Tue 22-May-18 19:55:30)
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looks like you been banded.
The two times I have been banded I observed this exact behaviour.
I was synced at under 5db SNRM. (6db target)
I breached DLM ES threshold.
This triggered banding instead of interleaving.
The first occasion was not automatically recovered but was recovered when openreach reset my line (wont say how I got this done).
The second occasion it recovered automatically by DLM, when it recovered I had a lot of spare SNRM (very high attainable), was over 9db for over a week.
Conclusion is I agree with Ixel that SNRM plays a part in some banding decisions by DLM.
Edited by Chrysalis (Sat 02-Jun-18 05:24:45)
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Just a quick update - support fobbed me off a 2nd time, and I noticed that my 18 month contract finished and since March the bill has almost doubled.
For the past few days I've been unable to open my bill on the website or view tarrifs due to an error message that comes up on the website.
Tried to call them but was on hold for 10 minutes and gave up - So decided to move to TalkTalk - cheaper and less hassle!!
ZeN Fibre Unlimited 2
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Tried to call them but was on hold for 10 minutes and gave up - So decided to move to TalkTalk - cheaper and less hassle!!
Frying pans and fires spring to my mind ... hope it works out for you.
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At least it should clear the banding. What happens (months) after that I'm sure the OP will let us know .
Let's face it, if you don't have line problems, and most don't, then you don't need CS. So deficiencies in those aren't known about.
That leaves throughput at peak times, where the niche ISPs such as Zen and IDNet have recently had localised difficulties. The big ISPs these days seem largely to have that covered.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. 200GB. Sync 70370/12780Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6 |
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Tried to call them but was on hold for 10 minutes and gave up - So decided to move to TalkTalk - cheaper and less hassle!!
Frying pans and fires spring to my mind ... hope it works out for you.
It might well be, at the end of the day though all BT support needed to do was reset my profile, not a particularly difficult task and it's not an unreasonable request. Instead I get various fobbing off and an account that can't be managed properly online.
The bill has also gone sky high now due to end of 18 month term - so something needed doing with that.
ZeN Fibre Unlimited 2
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So had the usual call from BT today. They can more than halve my bill on exactly the same package - which is good, but I pointed out to them about the speed issue. Retentions were unable to assist with this and gave me the phone number for support.
After 20 minutes of back and forth with the support engineer they wanted to book an engineer to come out, which as yourselves have said is not appropriate and I can't accomodate this anyway due to being at work all week, I asked about a DLM reset but they said because my speed was within acceptable parameters that they wouldn't do this for me.
So that answers that one then - off to TalkTalk!
Overall I've been quite happy with the connection, it is a shame that their support is ineffective and that is why they are losing a customer, not that it really makes much difference in the grand scheme for them I admit.
ZeN Fibre Unlimited 2
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Hi Piper,
You seem to be having a few issues, that are easily resolvable such as making sure the accounts are merged. In regards to a DLM reset in most instances it would require an engineer visit as this is the way BT retail still do it.
If you want the issue resolved, you have to give them the opportunity to resolve it in the form of an engineer visit as thats the only way at the moment you will get a reset as its above the hand back/ guaranteed minimum speed. If you post over on the BT community someone could look at your account in more detail get the accounts merged if they have not been already and then maybe get someone to look at the speeds but still would not do a manual reset Im afraid.
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Hi Piper,
You seem to be having a few issues, that are easily resolvable such as making sure the accounts are merged.
Overall the performance/reliability of the broadband has been fine, I've definitely not had a lot of problems. I asked about merging the accounts in the past but they said the only way they could do this was to cancel my entire service and re-create it under a same account. Not really worth the hassle..
In regards to a DLM reset in most instances it would require an engineer visit as this is the way BT retail still do it.
More fool them - that would be a complete waste of time and may result in me being charged for an unneccessary engineer visit, why should I have to have that burden/risk put on me due to a bad process at BT!
If you want the issue resolved, you have to give them the opportunity to resolve it in the form of an engineer visit as thats the only way at the moment you will get a reset as its above the hand back/ guaranteed minimum speed. If you post over on the BT community someone could look at your account in more detail get the accounts merged if they have not been already and then maybe get someone to look at the speeds but still would not do a manual reset Im afraid.
I shouldn't have to create accounts on forums and kick up a fuss in order for them to do their job properly, that is their problem. Arranging an engineer visit, even if they didn't charge me for a wasted visit, would still cost me quite a bit of money as it would require a day off work etc which I wouldn't get paid for. It's not worth it for 6Mbps (or so).
At the end of the day it really isn't a high enough priority for me, I've already "put up with it" for an entire year and the recent experience with support explains why - i.e. they just waste your time on the phone only to tell you they can't do much about it.
Meanwhile switching to talk talk required no more than 30 minutes in total and then it will probably all get resolved on its own accord. Clearly the better solution.
I have 5 mobile SIMs with BT too and since I'll lose my £5/mo discount I've decided to switch them all to o2 as well. So overall they've lost quite a lot of my money.
ZeN Fibre Unlimited 2
Edited by Pipexer (Sun 10-Jun-18 13:17:16)
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Well it seems you are a discount chaser, you may not have even been profitable for BT, let us know how things go with bargain basement talktalk.
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Well it seems you are a discount chaser, you may not have even been profitable for BT, let us know how things go with bargain basement talktalk.
Not really my other broadband is with AAISP, so I'm far from a discount chaser. I'm very sure BT have made money from me!
ZeN Fibre Unlimited 2
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I'm sure BT have made a few quid out of you.
I don't think any of the mass market providers will be able to offer you the bespoke support you are looking for. Even AAISP would only offer their 'unique' style of support in their working hours.
I'm sure that in general TalkTalk, like BT, will be fine
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Well that will teach me, I've switched to TalkTalk but now I am syncing at 72427Kbps 
I might give it a go with TalkTalk support but that will be in a few weeks time if I get annoyed for any particular reason.
Interestingly you have to set the access mode to "MPoA / Static or Dynamic IP" as opposed to PPPoE/PPPoA to get the Draytek to work, took me a while to figure that out.
Line stats are now:
| Text | 1
23
45
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89
1011
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3233
3435
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| ATU-R Information
Type: VDSL2 Hardware: Annex A
Power Mngt Mode: DSL_G997_PMS_L0 Line State: SHOWTIME
Running Mode: 17A
Line Statistics
Downstream Upstream Actual Rate 72427 Kbps 19999 Kbps
Attainable Rate 83564 Kbps 27497 KbpsPath Mode Interleave Fast
Interleave Depth 1053 1Actual PSD 0. 4 dB 13. 0 dB
Near End Far End Trellis ON ON
Bitswap ON ONReTx 0 0
SNR Margin 6 dB 15 dBAttenuation 12 dB 12 dB
CRC 0 103006FECS 32083 s 553130 s
ES 0 s 83059 sSES 0 s 0 s
LOSS 0 s 0 sUAS 30 s 35969 s
HEC Errors 0 0RS Corrections 0 0
LOS Failure 0 0LOF Failure 0 0
LPR Failure 0 0NCD Failure 0 0
LCD Failure 0 0NFEC 254 85
RFEC 16 16LYSMB 5374 22410 |
I noticed SnR margin has dropped to 6dB so it is possible that the line is physically not as good as it was back in the day.
I'll live!
ZeN Fibre Unlimited 2
Edited by Pipexer (Wed 20-Jun-18 20:20:59)
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No point complaining to Talktalk.
DLM applies interleaving to new connections automatically.
This takes about 10% of your sync speed.
Give it a week or 2 and G.INP will return and you will be at 79,999Kbps again.
Edited by j0hn83 (Sun 24-Jun-18 21:36:15)
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DLM applies interleaving to new connections automatically.
This takes about 10% of your sync speed. Internet myth/misinformation I'm afraid John. 2.2 User Network Interface - General
2.2.1 Dynamic Line Management
Dynamic Line Management (DLM) is employed in GEA-FTTC. DLM constantly manages lines to maintain a target link quality (speed and stability). It does this for as long as the product exists.
At provision, the line is put on �wide open� VDSL2 line profiles allowing the upstream and downstream line speeds to run at the upper limit of the product option selected.
On the first day of operation, DLM will intervene if severe instability is detected. Otherwise, DLM will wait until the day after provision before deciding if it must intervene, provided that the line has been trained up for at least 15 minutes during the preceding day. BT (Openreach) SIN 498.
That said, TalkTalk do select the stability option that Openreach offer. Exactly what effect that has on VDSL2 as opposed to ADSL2+ I don't know off hand. The SIN certainly does not say it adds Interleaving automatically.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. 200GB. Sync 71307/12780Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6Edited by RobertoS (Sun 24-Jun-18 22:09:49)
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Absolutely not.
ECI cabinets will go wide open
Huawei cabinets have interleaving on the downstream by default.
May I point you to the words of OpenReachs Ian Lawrence discussing the Huawei estate
https://kitz.co.uk/adsl/ginp-retransmission.htm
in particular
Downstream
Initially, low interleaving is enabled by default on all retransmission lines. Once DLM has positively identified that the modem supports retransmission then retransmission is enabled. This happens after a few days. If the low level of retransmission is not good enough to correct all errors then the high level is selected by DLM. If the line remains unstable and cannot be adequately managed by DLM with retransmission profile then Interleaving is applied as normal.
Every time I've switched ISP I've had interleaving applied by default (Huawei cabinet).
Edited by j0hn83 (Sun 24-Jun-18 22:10:54)
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The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
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I think that Q & A is a bit confusing, and has confused you.
It is clearly specifically discussing what happened when G.INP was originally introduced and messed up, and Openreach were sorting it out. The key words being "retransmission lines". That means lines that have G.INP enabled.
The Q & A is dated August 2015. The SIN link I gave you is dated April 2018. The implementation of G.INP has changed considerably since then, (Edit: August 2015) as have many other behaviours of DLM when making line profile (nothing to do with IP Profile) adjustments.
In particular, G.INP has never been applied on initial connection. That Q & A never did say what you posted.
Note that, independent of all that, on Huawei cabinets at least, G.INP is only activated in order to remove the high interleaving and "delay" levels that DLM does impose if it finds that the "ADSLx Fast Path equivalent" interleaving setting is needed and it has set it. As you say, this standard form of interleaving does cause a loss of about 10Mbps sync, and at least 8ms "delay".
After a few days DLM often decides to activate G.INP instead, and when it does the sync returns to normal. Interleaving is still applied when G.INP is active, typically at a level of 8 rather than the hundreds and often thousands of standard interleaving. At the same time as activating G.INP, the "delay" parameter is set to zero instead of 8ms or higher. (On Bearer 0 which is what we care about).
See my stats below. Bearer 0 is the normal one. Bearer 1 is used by G.INP and is not present when it is not active. Bearer 1 syncs at 200bps so because of rounding appears as 0kbps. xdslctl info --show
xdslctl: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Last Retrain Reason: 0
Last initialization procedure status: 0
Max: Upstream rate = 12795 Kbps, Downstream rate = 71751 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 12769 Kbps, Downstream rate = 71307 Kbps
Bearer: 1, Upstream rate = 0 Kbps, Downstream rate = 0 Kbps
Link Power State: L0
Mode: VDSL2 Annex B
VDSL2 Profile: Profile 17a
TPS-TC: PTM Mode(0x0)
Trellis: U:ON /D:ON
Line Status: No Defect
Training Status: Showtime
Down Up
SNR (dB): 2.8 6.0
Attn(dB): 19.4 0.0
Pwr(dBm): 13.7 7.4
VDSL2 framing
Bearer 0
MSGc: -6 26
B: 243 237
M: 1 1
T: 0 53
R: 10 16
S: 0.1090 0.5926
L: 18649 3429
D: 8 1
I: 254 127
N: 254 254
Q: 8 0
V: 0 0
RxQueue: 80 0
TxQueue: 20 0
G.INP Framing: 18 0
G.INP lookback: 20 0
RRC bits: 0 24
Bearer 1
MSGc: 154 -6
B: 0 0
M: 2 0
T: 2 0
R: 16 0
S: 6.4000 0.0000
L: 40 0
D: 3 0
I: 32 0
N: 32 0
Q: 0 0
V: 0 0
RxQueue: 0 0
TxQueue: 0 0
G.INP Framing: 0 0
G.INP lookback: 0 0
RRC bits: 0 0
Counters
Bearer 0
OHF: 0 196466515
OHFErr: 6825 63
RS: 572882152 1822407022
RSCorr: 1655234116 718
RSUnCorr: 0 0
Bearer 1
OHF: 96033991 0
OHFErr: 1327 0
RS: 960339299 0
RSCorr: 6293804 0
RSUnCorr: 4921 0
Retransmit Counters
rtx_tx: 11655481 0
rtx_c: 11017661 0
rtx_uc: 149773 0
G.INP Counters
LEFTRS: 1060 0
minEFTR: 71286 0
errFreeBits: 1674808635 0
Bearer 0
HEC: 0 0
OCD: 0 0
LCD: 0 0
Total Cells: 721176533 0
Data Cells: 235213954 0
Drop Cells: 0
Bit Errors: 0 0
Bearer 1
HEC: 0 0
OCD: 0 0
LCD: 0 0
Total Cells: 0 0
Data Cells: 0 0
Drop Cells: 0
Bit Errors: 0 0
ES: 545 61
SES: 131 0
UAS: 27 27
AS: 1542570
Bearer 0
INP: 51.00 0.00
INPRein: 1.00 0.00
delay: 0 0
PER: 0.00 7.88
OR: 0.01 32.47
AgR: 71380.32 12801.99
Bearer 1
INP: 4.50 0.00
INPRein: 4.50 0.00
delay: 3 0
PER: 16.06 0.01
OR: 79.68 0.01
AgR: 79.68 0.01
Bitswap: 1174986/1248525 13497/13569
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. 200GB. Sync 71307/12780Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6Edited by RobertoS (Sun 24-Jun-18 22:52:39)
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What John83 said ????
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. 200GB. Sync 71307/12780Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6
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...
lines fed by a Huawei cabinet start interleaved.
Read the thousands of posts from users that confirm this.
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Read the thousands of posts from users that confirm this. Where?
Bear in mind we are talking about initial connection. Not connection after a migration.
On migration between ISPs on the same underlying provider, basically BT Wholesale, TalkTalk Business and Vodafone, DLM is not reset. So if a line is on interleaved before migration it will stay so.
However, if changing platform, such as moving from BT Wholesale to Sky/TalkTalk/Vodafone or back, then DLM is reset to the conditions specified in SIN 498. Subject to the stability option chosen by the ISP.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. 200GB. Sync 71307/12780Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6Edited by RobertoS (Sun 24-Jun-18 22:57:45)
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Chasing the service you pay for is admirable practice!
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DLM resets which happen when moving between providers see G.INP turned off, and comes back some days later
So has the move of the original poster been between platforms.
On the DLM I am sure we can debate the system based on SIN for many years, which might not turn out to be exactly how it plays out in practice
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The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
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You agreed with John that Interleaving is always applied on a new connection on Huawei cabinets.
That is untrue. Please correct it  !
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. 200GB. Sync 71307/12780Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6Edited by RobertoS (Sun 24-Jun-18 23:33:28)
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A few months back I had a sync of 79,999 for some time, I had a couple of outages none of which were my side of the cab or in in the cab. The first one dropped me to 69, the second to 64 or thereabouts.
I wasn't too pleased & contacted my ISP more than once.
'Their Provider' (Zen) eventually came back after much testing with I'm getting about a download of 62 or more & that's within the realms of what BT say so �be happy & stop moaning as there are users worse off than me� (the latter is my interpretation of the situation)
However: as was paying 15 quid a month more that some ISP's for the same speed I pushed & pushed for a DLM reset & enquired what am I getting for my extra 15 notes a month (or more), in time I think they were sick to the teeth of hearing me though they did phone me several times but kept hitting the wall of their provider.
I did the usual faffing such as changing the RJ11 to yet another hand made one, I even bought a new router as the problem must certainly reside in the one meter from the wall to my router or the router & not in their miles of infrastructure, used two different filters, to keep them happy, amid dire warnings of millions of pounds cost if anyone came out & it be my fault.
Interestingly no one thought a DLM reset would actually achieve anything & people that knew what G.INP were rare & was told by one support guy @ IDNET G.INP is just for ADSL?
Eventually I got a DLM reset & less than a month or less my sync increased, & now is 80,000. Whatever the moral is, I got my speed back. I must say IDNET really did try their best.I did quote a few times 'we will give you the fastest speed your line can support' but I found out that means nothing at all, less than nothing actually.
Edited by deleted (Mon 25-Jun-18 02:19:53)
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If you want the job its yours
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The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
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No point complaining to Talktalk.
DLM applies interleaving to new connections automatically.
This takes about 10% of your sync speed.
Give it a week or 2 and G.INP will return and you will be at 79,999Kbps again.
You were right!
DSL
Connected : Down Stream : 79997Kbps / Up Stream : 19999Kbps
| Text | 1
23
45
67
89
1011
1213
1415
1617
1819
2021
2223
2425
2627
2829
30 | Line Statistics
Downstream Upstream
Actual Rate 79997 Kbps 19999 KbpsAttainable Rate 85716 Kbps 27271 Kbps
Path Mode Fast FastInterleave Depth 1 1
Actual PSD 0. 4 dB 13. 0 dB Near End Far End
Trellis ON ONBitswap ON ON
ReTx 0 1 SNR Margin 7 dB 15 dB
Attenuation 12 dB 12 dBCRC 0 103957
FECS 0 s 556139 sES 0 s 83949 s
SES 0 s 0 sLOSS 0 s 0 s
UAS 43 s 36043 sHEC Errors 0 0
RS Corrections 0 0LOS Failure 2 0
LOF Failure 0 0LPR Failure 0 0
NCD Failure 0 0LCD Failure 0 0
NFEC 254 32RFEC 16 16
LYSMB 5374 16 |
ZeN Fibre Unlimited 2
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It has gone to fastpath first.
G.INP will still follow in the next week or 2.
Being at full sync already you won't notice much difference.
I know I was right though. Huawei cabinets have gone to interleaving by default since the retransmission rollout.
Edited by j0hn83 (Mon 25-Jun-18 18:58:38)
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Harruummph!!!
.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. 200GB. Sync 70787/12590Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6 |
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It has gone to fastpath first.
G.INP will still follow in the next week or 2.
Being at full sync already you won't notice much difference.
I know I was right though. Huawei cabinets have gone to interleaving by default since the retransmission rollout.
I think I know the difference between Interleave and Fastpath but what is G.INP?
Is that what is known as Vectoring?
ZeN Fibre Unlimited 2
Edited by Pipexer (Mon 25-Jun-18 20:07:49)
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They have G.INP I believe. See line 12 (ReTx). From what I can see downstream is G.INP (I believe the columns are swapped).
Edited by Ixel (Mon 25-Jun-18 20:44:54)
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The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
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It hasn't gone to fastpath first. G.INP has been applied as Ixel has pointed out. I do not agree with your previous comments about interleaving always being applied to new connections on Huawei cabinets. Can you point us towards � in your words... " the thousands of posts from users that confirm this." My connection started on no interleaving and G.Inp was enabled after a couple of days.
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It would be nice if we could have stats obtained using telnet, similar to mine posted earlier. Those make it incontrovertible what is enabled, as Bearer 1 is either present or absent.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. 200GB. Sync 70787/12590Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6 |
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Yes the stats from the OP's Draytek router are a not very clear, particularly the Near End / Far End confusion and not showing if Bearer 1 is active. However the first stats on TalkTalk on June 20th show there is no ReTx active. I think we can safely deduce that Downstream G.Inp has been activated in the latest stats on June 25th.
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https://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,21834.msg37...
Another 1 today.
I'm on my desktop PC later I'll use the search function and give you a dozen recent examples. From my mobile phone not so easy.
There's even an example of an OpenReach engineer performing 4 DLM resets in a row to try remove interleaving and wondering why it's not working.
If you switch ISP on a Huawei cabinet the line defaults to interleaving.
If you have a DLM reset on a Huawei cabinet the line defaults to interleaving.
With an ECI cab both those events put the line on fastpath.
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They have G.INP I believe. See line 12 (ReTx). From what I can see downstream is G.INP (I believe the columns are swapped). My mistake. Retx is indeed enabled already.
I do that all the time with DrayTeks. So confusing how they swap near end/far end for different parameters.
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The OP and the thread I just posted were both ISP migrations causing interleaving to be applied.
Here is an example of a DLM reset that's just been performed.
https://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,21683.msg37...
The default Huawei line profile "Downstream low interleaving - Upstream Error Correction Off" has been applied.
Edited by j0hn83 (Thu 28-Jun-18 19:31:58)
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I looked back at my own line (Huawei cabinet) history a few days ago, as I had a few months banding that was resolved by an engineer reset.
At that time I clearly wasn't surprised that my line stats minutes later showed interleaving on!
My apologies therefore.
Oddly however, I also found this Nov 3 2017 ISPreview article. I wonder if we are both right? A reset gives interleaving as you say, but if a new (intial FTTC on that line) connection is made perhaps it starts on an open profile?
What do you think?
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. 200GB. Sync 63852/12594Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6 |
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On migration between ISPs on the same underlying provider, basically BT Wholesale, TalkTalk Business and Vodafone, DLM is not reset. So if a line is on interleaved before migration it will stay so.
Not seen that on 3 migrations (different lines) all BTwholesale platform ISPs but each time the DLM was reset, and started again. (In two cases, it was beneficial, including mine).
I don't see Bearer 1 in use on my HG612 with G.INP enabled if you mean the sync info line?
Max: Upstream rate = 9437 Kbps, Downstream rate = 60304 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 9441 Kbps, Downstream rate = 62153 Kbps
Bearer: 1, Upstream rate = 0 Kbps, Downstream rate = 0 Kbps
plusnet unlimited fibre 80/20 (since 2 Jun 14) - at 470m distance
Sync as of 24/Jun/18 - 62,153 / 9,441 - G.INP enabled with 3.0 dB SNRm
19 years of broadband, from 1999's ntl:cable modem trial - Live BQM
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Bearer 1 shows with zero sync because the speed is 200bps. (Note, not Kbps). It therefore rounds to zero .
When G.INP is not enabled that line is absent.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. 200GB. Sync 63852/12594Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6 |
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Bearer 1 shows with zero sync because the speed is 200bps. (Note, not Kbps). It therefore rounds to zero .When G.INP is not enabled that line is absent.
Thanks !
plusnet unlimited fibre 80/20 (since 2 Jun 14) - at 470m distance
Sync as of 24/Jun/18 - 62,153 / 9,441 - G.INP enabled with 3.0 dB SNRm
19 years of broadband, from 1999's ntl:cable modem trial - Live BQM
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Update on BT support: I called BT mobile today and spoke to a chap from the Warrington call centre to ask for my PAC codes.
He offered me some really good retention packages and actually went to the time to listen to my complaint about why I left the broadband service in the first place. In the end I still requested the PAC codes but the chap I dealt with was possibly one of the most helpful I have ever dealt with on the phone.
So they can do right at times and clearly some of their staff are geared up to be helpful.
Goes to show --- and I thought it only fair to report on a good experience on this occasion.
ZeN Fibre Unlimited 2
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Yeah, you do get some good BT staff members on the phone, I have spoken to loads but have also had a few bad ones that sound like they really hated their job.
Paul
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I wonder how often people would be switching providers if there was no such thing as new customer deals and no such thing as retention packages.
I am a bit careful when judging someone on the other end of the phone, different staff have different offers they can offer at different times, because operator A can offer you a better deal than operator B does that make operator B bad at their job?
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Sorry I didn't notice this post at the time. I saw something that I thought was relevant here.
Oddly however, I also found this Nov 3 2017 ISPreview article. I wonder if we are both right? A reset gives interleaving as you say, but if a new (intial FTTC on that line) connection is made perhaps it starts on an open profile?
Yes, I have seen this quite a bit too where some new lines (on Huawei cabinets) were wide open (fastpath). I still see DLM resets on Huawei Cabinets put the line fastpath. The default is old style INP/Interleaving.
ECI cabinets have always been growth from provision or after a DLM reset.
It looks like that ISPReview article you linked has started.
https://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,22082.0.html
That's the 1st case I've seen of an ECI line being interleaved at provision and after a DLM reset.
Given that OpenReach's way of deploying interleaving takes roughly 10% off the sync I wonder how many lines this will make start below the MGAL.
Just like the OP on my linked post.
Edited by j0hn83 (Mon 30-Jul-18 17:34:16)
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Afternoon, I've been having a problem recently, in that our sync speed has been very unstable. Usually it sits at around 6000-7000kbps. in the last few days it dropped down to 2112kpbs, and keeps dropping every now and then, it is currently synced at 1184kbps. Our home phone is also very crackly when you use it. I am assuming this is something to do with BT? Is there anything I can do to resolve this quickly as this crippled internet is useless for anything. Thanks
see: https://inro.in/lucky-patcher/ , https://inro.in/9apps/ & https://inro.in/vidmate/
Edited by deleted (Wed 07-Nov-18 18:23:37)
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If you can connect a corded phone (or better still try two phones in case the one in use is faulty) into the TEST socket within the Master socket and dial 17070 and take option 2 the "quiet line test", if you hear any noise then phone your service provider and report it as a VOICE fault, don't mention broadband issues.
Quite often once the voice fault is fixed the ADSL broadband will be unless there are other issues your side of the mastersocket.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VQNJGhUNHM
ADSL1 Broadband
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I would also like to add that after 4 or more years of a rock solid 52,000 sync my line for the first time has rebooted and synced at 47,000 and the pings have gone from 11ms to 21ms.
I noticed it reboot itself 5 days ago, it rebooted itself again, today, and just to check i manually rebooted, every time, fixed to 47,000.
It still says max sync speed 54,000 which it always has.
I'm on an ECI cab, just don't know what's going on.
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