Digital Voice and existing equipment

My elderly parents (80+) are at the end of their BT contract. They have Fibre1 and use a BT8600 Truecall Blocker phone. They did receive a lot of nuisance calls before the 8600 was installed. They are attached to their landline number, although my dad does have a smartphone.

BTs renewal offer page produces a popup box saying DV will be used for the Fibre 1 product. I know I can plug the BT6800 into the SH2 but I'm looking for the best ongoing offer.

PlusNet still offer FTTC but their FTTP full fibre doesn't include voice calls. A check with Zen, Voda and Sky say they offer a BT DV equivalent capability so the BT6800 can continue to function.

I think the 8600 DECT handsets could be registered with say, a Zen "hub" but, I'm guessing the answerphone/truecall functionality will not be available. All the capability would be in the 8600 base unit and not each handset.

It looks like the requirement for nuisance call blocking will limit the choice of provider.

If we moved the landline to say, A&A or sipgate I assume we wouldn't be able to use the 8600 truecall capability? Or is there a way of linking in the 8600 that I don't know about?

I'm aware Plusnet may not be around in the long run; VoIP power outage issues; LCR shortdial 18185 won't work with FTTP (an 0800 number is available); some TBB forum users report a reduction in nuisance calls since moving to a VoIP provider.

Thanks

Paul

In reply to a post by BarkingMad:

It looks like the requirement for nuisance call blocking will limit the choice of provider.

Why? Plug the existing DECT phone into the router's phone port and you won't lose any functionality of the handsets or base station.

We use Andrews and Arnold with a BT8610 by plugging it into my Giganet supplied DG4134. It works a treat

In reply to a post by BarkingMad:

It looks like the requirement for nuisance call blocking will limit the choice of provider.

To expand on olivers answer....

The blocking is built into the phone and only requires caller ID from the provider you go with.

Our BT premium with call blocker (CP-BT-Premium) and the same system i got for my mother has happily worked with BT, Virgin, Sky and grain connect with no loss of blocking functionality even when plugged into the modem itself.

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Thanks Oliver341, iannewson, omnius

If I summarise for my understanding

1) If we choose a provider with FTTP and voice offering, then providing the router has an FXS port the BT 8600 will work
2) If we choose to migrate the voice to VOIP, then we could have a router such as DG3134 with an FXS port. This would be set-up with ISP X FTTP details and ISP Y voip details. The 8600 would work. If this option was selected, then FTTP would be installed first, and then the port of the landline to voip would cease the current FTTC/landline service.
3) with copper connections, the copper between the house and exchange is "shared". I think this is known as LLU. If we used ISP D that used OR core/backhaul and moved to ISP Z that used a different core/backhaul, then that change would be made in the exchange. If we moved providers with FTTP we would need another hole drilled and fibre feed into the house, with possibly another ONT. Is this correct?

Thanks

Paul

Almost. There is a variant of 2) with CP (Communications Provider) X providing FTTP and a router, plus CP Y providing VoIP and an ATA with FXS port. If the CPs involved allow the use of third-party devices the router and/or ATA can potentially replaced rather than using the devices they supply if you so wish.

In reply to a post by BarkingMad:

3) with copper connections, the copper between the house and exchange is "shared". I think this is known as LLU. If we used ISP D that used OR core/backhaul and moved to ISP Z that used a different core/backhaul, then that change would be made in the exchange.

Sharing the copper directly between the house and exchange is only applicable to ADSL, and there are two types of sharing. There is MPF (Metallic Path Facility) where a CP provides both PSTN and ADSL services; there is also SMPF (Shared Metallic Path Facility) where Openreach provide the PSTN service and a CP provides the ADSL service.

With FTTC things are more complicated as the VDSL service originates closer to the customer in a DSLAM cabinet connected to the PCP where a number of customer (D-side) cables connect to the exchange (E-side) cables. There is a little-used SLU (Sub-Loop Unbundling) product where a CP can build their own DSLAM cabinets next to each PCP but in most cases Openreach provide VULA (Virtual Unbundled Local Access).

With VULA Openreach provides a VDSL service, sharing the copper between the house and DSLAM, together the fibre backhaul to a handover point with the CP, usually in the exchange. Before SOGEA was introduced the CP had to also take a PSTN service on the copper between the PCP and exchange (SMPF) or provide their own (MPF).

The diagram on page 3 of https://re.openreach.co.uk/cpportal/content/dam/cppo... shows the various types of MPF.

If we moved providers with FTTP we would need another hole drilled and fibre feed into the house, with possibly another ONT.

Only if the CP uses a different wholesale, or their own, network. If you migrate between two CPs and the gaining provider uses the same network it will use the existing fibre feed and ONT.

In reply to a post by BarkingMad:

3) with copper connections, the copper between the house and exchange is "shared". I think this is known as LLU. If we used ISP D that used OR core/backhaul and moved to ISP Z that used a different core/backhaul, then that change would be made in the exchange.

Sort of. LLU just means local loop unbundling.
Openreach own and control all the copper between exchange and property but providers can install their own kit in the exchange meaning they run the link.

If we moved providers with FTTP we would need another hole drilled and fibre feed into the house, with possibly another ONT. Is this correct?

Not necessarily.
If you currently have Openreach FTTP and want to switch to another provider over Openreach FTTP then you won't need any new holes or ONTs installed.
Migrations are all virtual

It's only if you wanted to switch to a completely different FTTP network (like Cityfibre) that would you require a new lead in hole drilled, new fibre and a new ONT.

Thanks tdw42 and j0hn83,

I'll see if I can find a reasonable ATA such as the HT801. BT's recontract offer doesn't include the 500 mins plan - only the 700 mins for £8 per month, £96/year. That will cover the cost of the ATA and VoIP calls.

I wish I could move my landline to VOIP before my parents so I could say "I've done it - its easy!" - but I'm 6 months into a 2 year contract.

Thanks everyone.

I migrated my talktalk fttc with voice line to aaisp VoIP, but first I purchased a 4g router (~£40)and a month unlimited data plan with Lebara for £10 once the internet was working I ordered the VoIP transfer with aaisp which ceased the broadband line. You can test the VoIP line to make calls but receiving only when migration occurs which is within an hour of losing the copper service. I went with Giganet for FTTP.
Hope this helps. Also means no hassle if you ever switch to another ISP

Post deleted by wiggsc00

With older technology, the voice is the "core" element, with data piggy backing on top. Telephone calls have been around longer than computers. Moving the landline number to VoIP cancels everything.

With FTTP, its data that is the core, with voice piggy backing. I'm expecting my parents will want to stay with a company they recognise for voice (BT). If we stayed with BT, upgraded to FTTP could we in the future split off the voice to another VOIP provider, and would this mean the data prevailed?

EDIT: 10:40. I think the technology used is irrelevant. Contractually, if voice+data are bundled together then if one element is removed, they both are removed.

Edited by BarkingMad (Thu 27-Apr-23 10:42:09)

Porting a telephone number to VOIP will likely kill any associated broadband service.

However if FTTP is installed as a new additional service then porting the landline telephone number to a VOIP service should just terminate the associated DSL broadband service which presumably is no longer wanted anyway.

Thanks @Michael_Chare,

I think I wasn't clear in our options. We'd would stay with BT and move to FTTP + DV with them. At some point in the future, towards the end of the contract, port the DV landline to a VOIP provider.

I think this would cease the FTTP because the contract was for FTTP + DV.

In reply to a post by BarkingMad:

I think this would cease the FTTP because the contract was for FTTP + DV.

You're very correct in thinking that.

I'm doing exactly this at the moment, and can confirm the advice in here is correct.

I am coming from FTTC + Digital Voice with BT, which I've been using since the trial started in 2019, and moving to Lit Fibre for my FTTP and A&A for VoIP.

I served BT 30 days notice when I was about a week out from my FTTP installation. Usually I would advise having your new service installed and tested but Lit had already ran the fibre to my house and tested for light at the CBT so I was confident that I could push the timings a bit - I was on a rolling monthly contract with BT that was costing close to £50 after the April increases, so was keen to keep the time I spent with them to a minimum.

Once I was happy with Lit I then ordered a number port with A&A and they confirmed some details and set the port date a couple of weeks before my BT services were due to expire. I then got an email from BT confirming that I'd requested to leave them (it's phrased as if you're moving your phone and broadband service because that's what it looks like to them) and setting the end date of my services to the port date that A&A had confirmed.

I could probably have done this without serving notice to BT first, but I assume they would then want to bill me for a 30 day period beyond when A&A booked the number port, so doing it this way saved me paying for a couple of extra weeks of service.

I will update this thread next week once the number port goes through.

In reply to a post by iannewson:

We use Andrews and Arnold with a BT8610 by plugging it into my Giganet supplied DG4134. It works a treat

Hi @iannewson, do you know if any NAT is performed when the DG4134 FXS port is used? A&A do not like VOIP using NAT. I'd probably connect ONT->VR600->GS HT801 ATA.

Do you hear UK ring, dial, engaged tones when using the DG4134 FXS port? I've searched but there is little info on the DG4134 (or its companion DGA0122). I configured (with help from TBB) the GS HT801 to have UK tones.

Thanks @jpm,

It's a good point about serving notice (to help reduce costs) but need to make sure FTTP is OK first! I'd not be popular if they lost service and their cherished land line number.

To be honest I have no idea if there is any NAT performed. All I did was enter the Andrews and Arnold settings into it and it just worked ( didnt even have to disable SIP ALG). It has full UK tones as far as I can make out, to the point my 86 year old mother hasn't noticed any difference when using it ( apart from costing a lot less per month).

In reply to a post by BarkingMad:

Hi @iannewson, do you know if any NAT is performed when the DG4134 FXS port is used? A&A do not like VOIP using NAT. I'd probably connect ONT->VR600->GS HT801 ATA.

Do you hear UK ring, dial, engaged tones when using the DG4134 FXS port? I've searched but there is little info on the DG4134 (or its companion DGA0122). I configured (with help from TBB) the GS HT801 to have UK tones.

My parents were not keen on using providers they didn't know. I showed them the history for the separate VOIP and FTTP providers but it didn't convince them. Orders placed with BT. I suppose we'll need to have a second OR fibre line into the property if they decide in two years time to split the BT DV line.

Thanks for all your help. I will be splitting our services in 18 months time.

We had a call the other day from our energy supplier (Octopus Energy). When searching the number to see who called I was surprised to find that the number was supplied by Andrews and Arnold.

My parents FTTP DV is early next week.

Does anyone know if there are any stats from the SH2 for a FTTP connection? Or possibly the ONT? For example, connection speeds etc? If not, I suppose we could always run speeds tests, and tracert to see some stats.

In reply to a post by BarkingMad:

My parents FTTP DV is early next week.

Does anyone know if there are any stats from the SH2 for a FTTP connection? Or possibly the ONT? For example, connection speeds etc? If not, I suppose we could always run speeds tests, and tracert to see some stats.

The connection between the router and the ONT is ethernet, at a fixed 1G/1G speed (*). There's nothing to see (except if a bad cable has caused the ethernet speed to drop to 100M/100M)

The ONT doesn't have any stats interface accessible to the end user. The raw modulation speed is also fixed, at 2.4G down / 1.2G up, and then the packets are rate-limited to match the speed you have paid for. The sort of stats that it can collect, like optical levels and bit error rates, are available to Openreach to see, but not us plebs.

(*) Or 2.5G/2.5G if your parents are trialists for the new 1.2G or 1.8G services from Openreach. I think this is unlikely.

In reply to a post by BarkingMad:

I suppose we'll need to have a second OR fibre line into the property if they decide in two years time to split the BT DV line.

...I will be splitting our services in 18 months time.

By "split the BT DV line", If you mean decouple the landline number that is bundled in with the BT package - such that it can be *ported* to another voice service provider for them to host the number for you, then no you don't need a separate fibre into the property.

Landline telephone numbers are no longer associated / tied with physical circuits and there is certainly no 1-to-1 relationship between them, as I think you may be implying.

You can in future port the number to another provider and run it over the one same fibre connection. It's just a VoIP service. There are caveats around the manner and timing in which your port numbers, especially in relation to a bundled broadband and voice agreement. Doing this generally terminates all the services within the agreement including the broadband.

However you could in theory and practise have dozens of VoIP enabled numbers running simultaneously over a single fibre broadband service. the bandwidth calls use is relatively small compared to what is available on the broadband connection overall.

FTTP installed this morning with DV. We tested phones: 17070 identifies the same circuit id on the PSTN and FTTP lines. When we made an incoming call, the PSTN and DV connected handsets rang.

Over the last hour, things have changed. Incoming calls ring on the PSTN line, and the line still has the correct circuit id according to 17070

However, incoming calls using the new DV do not ring. I've tested with a phone that was working this morning connected into the DV port on the SH2. I have also tested with the supplied BT Essential digital home phone. My mobile hears the call ringing but no sound in the property. If I pick up the handsets (wired or wireless) whilst I am ringing the circuit from my mobile, I get a dialtone.

It is like BT isn't routing the call to DV.

Is this expected in the hours following swap over to BT DV? I'll also call BT but I think you guys may have more info than the CS person.

Thank you.

I've spoken to BT. By midnight tonight we should be able to receive incoming calls on DV. It's part of the porting process to DV. I should have known there was a porting delay..

Thank you.

Thanks Pheasant,

I think I understand. My parents now have BT FTTP + DV for the same price we paid 2 years ago - but we will have CPI increases. If, after 2 years, we want to use different suppliers for FTTP and VOIP, I see the following "options"

1) Migrate voice to a VOIP provider. This will terminate the BT FTTP as well as the BT VOIP. Not ideal.

2) Migrate FTTP to another provider. This will terminate BT FTTP + BT VOIP. However, I've seen some posts on TBB to suggest that recently it has become possible to resurrect terminated VOIP services. There would be some downtime for VOIP.

3) Have a second OR ONT installed. Port the VOIP to another provider. We will still see downtime for VOIP porting, but data connectivity will be fine.

Two years is a long time away and any options described now may not be valid in the future. I will worry about it in 18 months time.

Thank you.