Move to DV with BT on FTTC - yoyo line

I've just received an email from BT saying my move to DV over FTTC will be in the next 30 days.

We don't use the landline for outgoing calls and only receive calls from elderly relatives, so I'll need to keep using the SH2 for another 14 months when my BT contract will end and hopefully, FTTP will be available and then I'll split the services.

So far, no offer of an adapter or simple VOIP phones. A BT webpage says I'm not eligible.

I'll need to do some Voice Reinjection wiring from my NTE5a with VDSL plate, but it looks like the extension wires are on the first plate to be removed which gives access to the test socket.

My line has good speeds (I'm on Fibre1) but it is up and down like a yoyo at the moment. The last 3 days are below. Sometimes it stays up for days. Sometimes a new IP is not allocated. There isn't much difference in the connection figures. If there were errors then surely the figures should drop a lot more than what I'm seeing to get a stable line.

08:16:56 26-Jul DSL Link Up: Down Rate=53698kbps, Up Rate=9999kbps; SNR Margin Down=3.3dB, Up=6.4dB
21:48:48 25-Jul DSL Link Up: Down Rate=54647kbps, Up Rate=9996kbps; SNR Margin Down=3.3dB, Up=6.3dB
18:53:44 25-Jul DSL Link Up: Down Rate=54997kbps, Up Rate=9997kbps; SNR Margin Down=3.3dB, Up=6.3dB
16:51:45 25-Jul DSL Link Up: Down Rate=54997kbps, Up Rate=9999kbps; SNR Margin Down=3.2dB, Up=6.3dB
12:30:44 25-Jul DSL Link Up: Down Rate=54997kbps, Up Rate=9998kbps; SNR Margin Down=3.3dB, Up=6.3dB
10:38:48 25-Jul DSL Link Up: Down Rate=54997kbps, Up Rate=9997kbps; SNR Margin Down=3.4dB, Up=6.3dB
23:27:25 24-Jul DSL Link Up: Down Rate=54997kbps, Up Rate=9995kbps; SNR Margin Down=3.3dB, Up=6.3dB

Anyone got any suggestions for a more stable line - besides switch to FTTP

Current stats are:

Data rate 10.0 Mbps / 53.7 Mbps
Maximum Data rate 10.5 Mbps / 55.1 Mbps
Noise margin 6.1/3.3
Line attenuation 11.1/21.8
Signal attenuation 11.1/24.1

Edited by BarkingMad (Wed 26-Jul-23 12:12:55)

My guess would be that the router is struggling with the 3.3db snr … are you seeing reasonably high FEC errors ?

DLM has crept the target SNR down as the line has been very stable … the last adjustment has gone a little too far, hence now being unstable.

Running with such a low margin will make your line susceptible to picking up more external noise, electrical storms, local RFI, etc, etc.

Your query on the voice re injection, does your current SH2 not have a phone jack on the rear of it ? If it does, run a fly lead out of there, and then terminate on the NTE front plate (leaving disconnected from the main NTE)

Or run a wireless handset straight out of the jack on the router ?

Hi Zarjaz,

AFAIK the SH2 doesn’t show detailed info like FECs. I will need to connect my old Billion to get that info.

RE VRI. You described nearly what I will do. A 4 way 3 metre extension is on its way. Also got a BT 77B. I may make extension wires exit the NTE, connect to the 77B, and then connect extension to the 77B. Or, use your suggestion.

I could move the wireless base unit to near the router as you have suggested.

Was this the webpage you used?

https://shop.bt.com/other-pages/bt-customer-offers/b...

If your line isn't holding sync then call it in as a fault. You're using the BT-supplied router into the master socket with an Openreach filter on, so it's pretty clear that nothing you're doing is causing the problem.

Hi jpm,

Different starting point but same end point http://bt.com/dvequipment

Would BT investigate a line not holding sync? Is there a definition for the not holding? E.g. 5 syncs in a day? Perhaps I am limited by the current copper technology and nothing can be done. I cannot see any investment with my copper supply

The syncs cause work from issues.

My Billion is connected so I will report of FECs tomorrow.

Virgin are in the street but the WhatsApp street group has lots of unhappy comments. And Hey B are using BT ducts and poles and could offer service in the near future but there is a long thread of unhappy customers on TBB.

In reply to a post by BarkingMad:

RE VRI. You described nearly what I will do. A 4 way 3 metre extension is on its way. Also got a BT 77B. I may make extension wires exit the NTE, connect to the 77B, and then connect extension to the 77B. Or, use your suggestion.

Just to be clear your proposed extension wiring setup must be isolated from the NTE5. This can also be achieved by diverting the existing extension(s) away from the NTE5 by hard-wiring to a separate phone socket. Then adapting a standard phone lead, also hardwired to that separate phone socket, connected directly to the router. This would also allow a phone to be connected to the front of the separate phone socket if required.

Hi 4M2,

Thanks, I understand. We don’t want the router DV output connecting to the exchange. I will be following this https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=Id_KGXMcJHk

Already implemented for my Dad when he moved to FTTP

A line dropping once a day I'd consider to be faulty. Multiple drops in a day are definitely a fault.

Post deleted by Zarjaz

In reply to a post by BarkingMad:

Hi 4M2,

Thanks, I understand. We don’t want the router DV output connecting to the exchange. I will be following this https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=Id_KGXMcJHk

Already implemented for my Dad when he moved to FTTP

Obviously in your case, for the time being, the VDSL broadband and "digital voice" combination would still be via copper through the NTE5 to the DSL port on the router. In the future, if required, the same isolated analogue voice extension setup could still used with FTTP when the copper connection and the NTE5 becomes redundant and the ONT is positioned fairly close to the current router's location (or an ATA in the current router's position as the case may be.)

Good luck.

In reply to a post by jpm:

A line dropping once a day I'd consider to be faulty. Multiple drops in a day are definitely a fault.

Which follows that if a faulty line drops xDSL sync then a VoIP "digital voice" connection on the same line would also be dropped...

Here are some stats from dslstats. Are the FECs considered high?

Max: Upstream rate = 9580 Kbps, Downstream rate = 56252 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 9580 Kbps, Downstream rate = 54997 Kbps

Average error rates for 27 Jul 2023 @ 07:26 in the morning

CRC erors per hour: 0 Down, 0 Up
FEC erors per hour: 705910 Down, 0 Up
HEC erors per hour: 0 Down, 0 Up
ES per hour: 0 Down, 0 Up
SES per hour: 0 Down, 0 Up

Down Up
SNR (dB): 3.3 6.1
Attn(dB): 21.9 0.0
Pwr(dBm): 12.1 7.4

Total time = 12 hours 24 min 38 sec
FEC: 5507957 5
CRC: 3 1
ES: 1 1
SES: 0 0
UAS: 30 30
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Retr: 0
FailedRetr: 0
FailedFastRetr: 0

Latest 15 minutes time = 9 min 38 sec
FEC: 128838 0
CRC: 0 0
ES: 0 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Retr: 0
FailedRetr: 0
FailedFastRetr: 0

Previous 15 minutes time = 15 min 0 sec
FEC: 124054 0
CRC: 0 0
ES: 0 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0

Yes, my temporary FTTC is slightly different to the video because the copper line will still be live and needed for the data connection. The plan will be to remove disconnect the extn wiring from the NTE5, and connect it to a BT 77B 6 way junction, which is then connected to the DV port on the router (or ATA output in the future).

I think it isn't acceptable but I'm thinking of how the conversation will go with BT:

Me: My line drops regularly
BT: We'll do some tests. You are getting good speeds - better than your min guaranteed. Nothing seems wrong. Copper cables are not perfect and that's why we are moving to fibre. Fibre isn't available for you at the moment.

I suppose I could try but I'm not expecting any miracles.

Yes, I'm aware DV will drop as well, but our voice use is minimal. Maybe 12 incoming calls a year!

I can limit the connection speed using my Billion. I've done this in the past. I still got a lot of drops - perhaps DLM thought I can do better than 40 down. Use of the Billion when DV arrives will not be an option.

If you plan to split the services in 14 months time there may be an alternative that would allow you to split the services now but if you did that a change of phone number would probably be best.

You are probably already aware that BT will allow you to arrange to go on broadband only within 7 days if receiving the letter.

https://www.bt.com/help/landline/digital-voice-migra...

You can easily set up a VOIP line with a VOIP Provider of your choice. - (There is a lot on the Thinkbroadband VOIP board about different providers).

A new phone number would be best as it would avoid the possibility of the broadband ending if the old number was ported.

Separating the phone and broadband providers is useful because then the providers for either one could be moved without it affecting the other.

Just a thought.

The OP has said the landline is only there to receive calls from elderly relatives, I think from that we can assume that keeping the number is critical.

In reply to a post by jpm:

The OP has said the landline is only there to receive calls from elderly relatives, I think from that we can assume that keeping the number is critical.

Surely that is for the OP to decide. - All that I did is to put a viable alternative into the mix and since the plan is to separate the phone and the broadband in 14 months time it my be better to do that now.

Also, if the OP speaks with BT when/if he explores the possibility of going broadband only BT may allow him to port the phone number now without losing the broadband. - Why narrow the options?

Elderly relatives have been know to cope with phone number changes but I would agree that it may not be ideal but it may also have advantages of getting rid of nuisance calls. - (I did not port my number when I changed to VOIP and the calls about solar panels, etc. stopped).

If the OP manages to port a number away from BT that is associated with their broadband service, during the minimum contract period without attracting early termination charges and ceasing the broadband then I would be very interested because they will be the first person I have heard of managing to do that.

In reply to a post by jpm:

If the OP manages to port a number away from BT that is associated with their broadband service, during the minimum contract period without attracting early termination charges and ceasing the broadband then I would be very interested because they will be the first person I have heard of managing to do that.

That exactly why I wrote;

In reply to a post by Fido:

A new phone number would be best as it would avoid the possibility of the broadband ending if the old number was ported.

The difference in this case is that this a unerlateral change by BT which could be classed as a contractual change and it is obvious that BT already realize this because the BT Guideance link, (that I included a shortcut to earlier in the thread), indicates they will allow the customer to change to broadband only without penalty in the week after you are notified by BT of this change.

For some reason or other; you seem huffed enough to jump down my throat about this trivia ignoring the fact that I had already pointed out the flaws so it may not be perfect but for some it could be a good option.

OK. just called the BT number and it is the general BT number. I asked about retaining my number and moving to another VOIP provider but it was new territory for the adviser.

I was told my ETC (Early Termination Charge) for the 14 months left on my contract was £3.11!!! Perhaps it is something to do with my special £22.86 per month for Fibre1 + phone.

In other exciting news, the Billion hasn't resynced since it was connected 23 hours ago.

Average error rates for 27 Jul 2023

CRC erors per hour: 0 Down, 0 Up
FEC erors per hour: 776831 Down, 7.66 Up
HEC erors per hour: 0 Down, 0 Up
ES per hour: 0 Down, 0 Up
SES per hour: 0 Down, 0 Up
Total ES in the day 2561 Down, 1 Up

Perhaps the Billion is more capable than the SH2? Perhaps I just need to give it time. Perhaps the SH2 has an intermittent fault.

In reply to a post by Fido:

For some reason or other; you seem huffed enough to jump down my throat about this trivia ignoring the fact that I had already pointed out the flaws so it may not be perfect but for some it could be a good option.

I'm sorry if you feel that me saying I would be very interested in hearing from anybody who has done the equivalent of A&A's "renumber and export" with BT while in contract counts as being huffed or jumping down your throat.

If that early term charge is in writing then consider whether you want to split your voice from your broadband now you have the opportunity to do so. Bear in mind if you don't want a service interruption you'll need another FTTC line (or 4G/5G, Virgin Media) installed and running as the broadband will (should) terminate once the port goes through.

I ported a BT DV number a few months ago to A&A, I did mess up slightly by serving 30 days notice to BT and then submitted the port request which did some very strange things - the number ported but the SOGEA service stayed active for the remainder of the 30 day term, and the number stayed alive within BT's systems until that 30 day date, so any calls from a BT landline or EE mobiles rang the digital voice line, everything else went to A&A. It did prove that BT linking the phone number to the SOGEA service is not a service limitation and is just the way their systems are set up to handle number port requests, but it was interesting to see it proven.

Another thing that needs investigating by people going through this is to see how this guidance from Ofcom is meant to be implemented, if keeping a previous number counts as a "nice to have" and a couple of weeks of it being unavailable is acceptable then it could be a lot less hassle than trying to run multiple connections alongside each other:

https://www.ofcom.org.uk/advice-for-businesses/switc...

Edited by jpm (Thu 27-Jul-23 18:55:09)

It may not suit the OP but it may suit others in a similar situation.

In cirtain circumstances you can end a contract early without penalty. - When you have a contract with an ISP you can exit early, (without penalty), under cirtain circumstances. - (eg. if the ISP does certain things. - (eg. BT always have price rises as part of their business model but if the price rises are outside of the agreed/publish criterion that was agreed to when the customer signed up the customer can migrate without penalty).

Also, Since the change to BT Digital Voice forces the Customer to use the BT Router and his own, (eg Billion Router), works better on his line the change is not what he signed up to.

The change from PSTN to VOIP is coming by 2025 but if BT want to bring it in mid-contact/early on a customers line to suit their commercial decisions in my view the customer should be able to leave early without penalty as that is a significant change and it seems to me that BT has already recognised this by allowing customers to go broadband only when they introduce this change;

https://www.bt.com/help/landline/digital-voice-migra...

Therefore, according to the above guideance, BT will allow the customer to choose a different broadband only contract instead of the present contract that BT plan to unilaterally change.

According to BT, (as per the above link), If the customer chooses not to take up Digital Voice for their own reasons they can move to a broadband only contract.

Anyone can open one or more VOIP accounts tomorow and a new number is the easiest way, (as we all know that porting a bundled number can end the broadband).

If a person decides to not to take up digital voice and chooses the option of a broadband only contract the BT link between the new broadband only contract no longer applies. - So far so good.

If the customer just keeps the new local VOIP number that they chose when they signed up to VOIP; all is good.

If within 30 days the customer then wants to port his old/disused number to VOIP that may create an issue but theoretically since the new BT contract is broadband only it should not cease the broadband.

When I had both broadband and a PSTN phone line with Zen; they were started at different times and I ensured that they were not bundled. - When I opened a VOIP line with a new number I ended my PSTN number with Zen but even though they were never bundled the Zen system still referred to the old PSTN number, that has not existed for over a year, and I suspect that if I had tried to port the number it would have caused a lot of issues.

If the PSTN line and the broadband is not linked the theory is sound, however, since BT customer service people will not be up to speed keeping the new VOIP number is much easier if that is possible.

Are they considered high … well, for me, I think so, though I daresay others will think not.

I would wager that a DLM reset would clear those right up.

"If within 30 days the customer then wants to port his old/disused number to VOIP that may create an issue but theoretically since the new BT contract is broadband only it should not cease the broadband."

How can someone port a number they don't have anymore?

The Ofcom number portability rules changed in April:
"When signing up with a new provider you can also request to keep your old phone number for free by contacting your new provider even if you have already cancelled your previous service (as long as you request this within one month of cancelling)." - from https://www.ofcom.org.uk/advice-for-businesses/switc... (also applies to non-business landlines).

How well this works in practice is anyones guess.

Previous provider is obliged to ‘ring fence’ the number for 31 calendar days, so that the customer can port the number to a new provider. This is in accordance to the recent changes to number porting rules which came into affect in April.

See “Right to Port” guidance to service providers from Office of the Telecommunications Adjudicator:

http://www.offta.org.uk/latest-news/telecommunicatio...

We need to find a guinea pig to try this out.

I have been in contact with an ISP that knows their stuff.

I asked - could I move to BB only with BT, loose my number and then ask them to pick it up following Ofcom’s rules. They said they didn’t think the cancellation process would work and wasn’t anything they had tried.

They suggested that as part of the move to SOGEA there is an option to export the number to a VOIP provider. I googled and found Integral Number Port/Transfer. I would need to give BT the CUPID of the VOIP provider.

I am checking with BT. Although this is technically possible, I don’t think it is standard end user (for example me) facing procedure. The normal BT service line may struggle if I provided a CUPID and asked for a number port. I am guessing the answer will be “No”

Moving to BB only will cost £3 per month extra and will be for 24 months.

No resyncs after 48 hours. Physical letter from BT arrived today. FTTP with OR is not planned in my area. Don’t fancy Hey!B that are doing ducting/pol work

I suppose options are
a) SOGEA transfer option and extra £72 (plus CPI) over the next 2 years
b) transfer to provider that will provide SOGEA using FTTC and VOIP. New service probably significantly more than my current £23 per month BT price. Also assumes my ETC is £3.11
c) new SOGEA FTTC line installed and then move number to VOIP which will cancel my original line. Possible install costs and increased monthly rental. Move to FTTP later. Lots of lines coming into the property.
d) do nothing. When FTTP arrives, get it installed and then move number to VOIP ceasing FTTC.

Agreed and being done with a BT subsidiary - PlusNet.

FTTC moving to FTTP - no early termination and permitted to port voice.

That's good to know however it is a slightly different scenario.

AFAIK PlusNet don't offer FTTP + DV, so the voice has to go somewhere or it would be lost. I'd assumed PlusNet would ask you to move to BT to keep the voice element.

I'm on BT FTTC with PSTN and BT offer DV so no reason for BT to offer a port of PSTN to VOIP. More complicated process for customer service agents. More customers. Possibly more work to sort out if things go wrong with the port. Loss of revenue.

Edited by BarkingMad (Sun 30-Jul-23 09:01:21)