In reply to:

---

Phorm is just a get rich quick scheme benfitting the former spyware company and BT shareholders only

---

All firms are out to make a profit. They use it to pay tax, invest in the business and divvy up to the shareholders.

BT publish their accounts so you can see how much they make, how much tax they pay, how much they pay out to shareholder and how much they invest. BT also donate a large amount to worthy causes.

Perhaps you might ask your ISP when they are going to publish their accounts overdue way back in 2006 whilst we are looking at corporate probity as I understand they claim to donate all profits to worthy causes yet refuse to file their accounts? I'm sure there is a perfectly acceptable reason why companies can ignore company law it's just that I can't think of one right now

In reply to:

---

As far as IP address Goes, they have no yet proven that the UID cannot be linked to an IP, interseting to note that shortly they will know that some people are in Croydon or Ealing as users from those areas are set to be used in the next trials to take place.

---

Phorm do not store IP addresses. Do not store browsing history. That is what is different about Phorm compared to the hundreds of other cookies on your computer or sites such as Think Broadband that use Google Analytics or the millions of people who use free email accounts.

In reply to:

---

what they propose is no bette than the post office opening your mail and using the contents of that to decide what junk mail to put through your door.

---

That would be invading your privacy and would be illegal. Of course, the Post Office and marketing companies do use Postcodes to determine profiles and the information is used to target junk mail to specific areas.

Do you get a lot of junk mail advertising cheap tin foil by any chance?

My view is -
Am I worried about Phorm? No.
Do I want Phorm? Not particularly.
Do I want BT Broadband with free hub, vision box, cheap voip service with free kit, free smartphone with inclusive minutes and free access to Openzone and Fon for less money than some providers charge just for broadband alone? Yes, and I've just recontracted.

Edited by deleted (Wed 09-Apr-08 20:19:20)

Not really a surprising view RandomJointer, coming from a BT Shareholder Just a slight conflict of interest, don't you think.

Im sure your views will be noted by everyone :E

Most people have an interest in BT shares either directly or via their pension.

Do you have any information that might assist a shareholder in determining how Phorm is spying on users as it might be helpful in taking a view on my holding?

So far, we have not established any personally identifiable data that Phorm is collecting. In fact, it would appear that my caller display unit collects more data than Phorm.

Edited by deleted (Wed 09-Apr-08 21:17:38)

My ISP? hmm I think you are mistaken there, maybe you mean my RESELLER, and that is between him and the relevent authorities if in fact the database is correct - I wouldnt pretend to know. It seems to be a matter approaching obsession for you as you have been going on about this for a very long time. If you are so interested, why not contact my RESELLER yourself, directly [email protected] , rather than sniping at his customers in this forum?

Phorm CLAIM they do not store, but have we seen any cast iron proof? Similarly, I note you ignored the potentially illegal interception of data during the trials which many people - more expert in this area than you or I - consider to be a breach of RIPA .

As for Phorm, you are clearly happy to play along with thier game, in the same way as many others are not, and I think I said clearly enough that we occupy different positions on this, such is life, If my ISP started to make a few million off of its users data, without giving me anything extra - Id be looking for my share - or I'd want my data keept away from any profiling equipment. I am happy to see that companies will now be forced to ask thier customers to pot in, rather than expecting those uncomfortable with this to Opt out.

Your tin foil remarks only cheapen the debate, even the Information Commissioner has warned previously of the dangers we face from increasing tracking and surveilance, its bed enough when our government do it, but now it seems companies we "employ" seem to feel it is ok to take advantage of the data that passes between us on whatever level for further profit. Simply put, I pay a company to connect me to the net, I dont pay them to pimp my data especially to a company that has its roots in Malware.

There seems little point in continuing this. we occupy opposing positions. and as I tagged my last post -

Just My Opinion -YMMV!

If Phorm was being sold to consumers as what it was rather than a webwise phishing protection system then I'd be more comfortable.

If those who opted out were guaranteed a route through the network that did not touch any Phorm servers (including ones leased to the ISP) then I'd be more comfortable.

if it only does what it is said to do, then in terms of privacy it should be fine, and here is the BUT, past experience has shown these sort of things to have a degree of function creep or flaws that expose information.

If the trials had been open, or done just on BT staff then I'd have less worries.

There are concerns and this sort of thing should have been all known about at the point when the service was announced, not slipping out bit by bit as people figure things out

In reply to:

---

My ISP? hmm I think you are mistaken there, maybe you mean my RESELLER, and that is between him and the relevent authorities if in fact the database is correct

---

According to my enquiries on the matter, Companies House webcheck is no more than 48 hours behind.

In reply to:

---

you have been going on about this for a very long time.

---

Well, UKFSN have been overdue on their accounts for a very long time. I would be highly suspicious of firms who claim to donate profits to worthy causes yet fail to file their accounts.

In reply to:

---

Phorm CLAIM they do not store, but have we seen any cast iron proof? Similarly, I note you ignored the potentially illegal interception of data during the trials which many people - more expert in this area than you or I - consider to be a breach of RIPA .

---

I would expect BT, Carphone etc have the odd guy around who knows a few things about how the law affects communications providers.

In reply to:

---

the Information Commissioner has warned previously of the dangers we face from increasing tracking and surveilance

---

Yes it's all very worrying. How is Phorm tracking me again? What data do they get that tells them anything about me at all?

In reply to:

---

There seems little point in continuing this.

---

But we were getting on great and I was looking forward to finding out what personally identifiable data Phorm was collecting from me?

A load of people overreacting to something they don't really understand, either through lack of information available or pure laziness to understand what exactly it is about.

So Phorm edited their article on Wikipedia - didn't Sony do the same to an XBOX 360 article relating a new game?

I very much doubt BT will roll-out Phorm now after the mass uprising its caused. Its more likely to send share prices down, which would not go down too well with the shareholders. The sole purpose of business is to maximise shareholder wealth.

In reply to:

---

Well, UKFSN have been overdue on their accounts for a very long time. I would be highly suspicious of firms who claim to donate profits to worthy causes yet fail to file their accounts.

---

Might have something to do with the fact that UK Free Software Network Ltd is a Private Limited Company and thus does not have to publish its accounts for the public.

Edited by deleted (Wed 09-Apr-08 21:53:36)

Surely that is what a trial is all about?

My view is Phorm is nothing to worry about but it gives no benefit to consumers.

So the resulting hysteria will probably kill it off after the trial but it would be a shame if it also killed off investment.

BT hold one of the biggest databases in the country of personally identifiable data. Peoples names, addresses, bank accounts and phone numbers. They have held that data with the utmost respect for peoples privacy for years. I have no problems trusting BT when it comes to privacy.

"Can I find out what PII Phorm Service keeps about me?
The Phorm Service is designed to avoid the collection and storage of PII, however you have the right to request a copy of any information that Phorm may have about you and to have any inaccuracies corrected. A reasonable fee may be charged for information requests, and we reserve the right to request such evidence as we consider reasonably necessary in the circumstances to prove your identity We will use reasonable efforts to supply, correct or delete any information about you that Phorm may have"

how can that be possible? If as continually stated, everything is anonymous.

"Even this non-personally-identifiable information is automatically purged from the production system immediately. (Research and debug logs may be kept on a separate system for a maximum of 14 days)."

Separate system? 14 days??

Phorms CEO's history with 121 media and their rootkit is enough for most people.

Then: http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/investing-and-markets/article.html?in_article_id=430955&in_page_id=3

I could go on all night but quite frankly have better things to be doing, like finding another ISP.

If BT really think that being associated with all this is good for business, then GL

"but it would be a shame if it also killed off investment. "

What investment? BT surely has revenue from advertising now? Is Phorm going to provide many millions more than what it could generate using existing schemes.

Perhaps we have different views of trials...people did spot the preivous trials and as no-one knew they were going on did all sorts of stuff to try and rid themselves of it. If a trial proper then support would have known about it etc

BT may hold the data - but does it hold this data - the Phorm system operates an OIX so the resulting advertising profile for a connection is looked up on the OIX server for all sites that server OIX adverts. What assurrance is there that BT would not add a tracking option to record visits to broadband provider sites, and then start offering retention adverts.

It may be nothing to worry about, but when I start to get pre-emptive phone calls about a new service it tends to make me worried about why they using the big PR machine on me - what do I need convincing about.