No people did not do that.

People interpreted BT's legals in spite of the law and that is what I had issue with. BT's legals are not the law. They are to be applied in accordance with the law.

Ofcom believes that non-core legal terms can be questioned in regards to fairness.

I now know that the 14 days notice period can be questioned in regards to fairness.

I can't remember where I read it but BT state 5 days for a migration to complete. The BT legals should be updated with a 5 day notice period in accordance with Ofcom's interpretation of what is an acceptable notice period. It isn't the law but it should be applied in accordance with the law as Ofcom interprets it otherwise BT should be question it and any ruling would mean Ofcom's documents need updating. A ruling shouldn't be necessary however.

Also it is obvious that Ofcom expects that a supplier treat the MAC request as notice of leaving so it should be mentioned in BT's legals as such or clarified so as not to cause confusion.

In reply to a post by johnjburness:

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

in 2010 Ofcom changed some of the guidance it gives

As you appreciate, OFCOM issues guidance, but this does NOT mean that this guidance should be interpreted as being "The Law"!

Equally, because it is "guidance", there is always room for interpretation &, as you rightly say, it is far from black and white.

Actually it is black and white.

Ofcom ruled on it. Here I post it all for clarity:

E. Minimum Notice Period (MiNP)

A description of the charge

A1.99 Even where there is no MCP, suppliers usually require consumers to provide formal
notification of an intention to terminate a contract where regular payments are made
directly to the supplier.

A1.100 The Minimum Notice Period (�MiNP�) is often either 30 days or one calendar month,
and consumers are required to make payments up to the end of that period even if
they wish to terminate the contract (and the service) earlier. Lesser MiNPs are
generally applied to fixed voice services.

Ofcom�s guidance

Terms providing for MiNPs are likely to be non-core terms

A1.101 We consider that the MiNP is unlikely to be part of the main subject matter of the
contract and that terms providing for a MiNP are likely to be non core terms.

A1.102 In our view, consumers entering into a contract for services would not consider the
manner in which they are required to terminate that contract as part of the service
they are buying. As such, these terms cannot be regarded as part of the main
subject matter of the contract. MiNPs are therefore subject to the test of fairness.

The fairness test for MiNPs

A1.103 We consider a term providing for an MiNP is likely to be fair where the following
conditions are fulfilled:
 the MiNP is transparent to consumers within the contract at the point of sale; and
 the MiNP reflects a reasonable period in which to carry out the necessary
administration of terminating the contract.

A1.104 Failure to set MiNPs according to the principle in the second bullet point would be
likely to lead to consumers having to bear an unjustified risk of ceasing service with
the losing supplier before the end of the MiNP or of having to pay two suppliers for
a period of time in order to ensure a sufficient degree of overlap and no loss of
service.

A1.105 For fixed voice and broadband services, where formal service migration processes
apply which are likely to take between 5 and 10 working days, we consider this is
likely to be a sufficient period for the necessary administration of terminating the
contract. We consider that a longer MiNP in a contract for such services is likely to
be unfair. This should mean the cessation date for charging by the supplier does
not go beyond the date on which the migration occurs.

A1.106 For mobile services, and in any sector where no formal migration process applies,
we consider that the MiNP should be no longer than reasonably necessary for the
required administration. We see no reason why this should in any event be longer
than 30 days and likely much less. Ofcom review of additional charges
146

A1.107 If the consumer gives notice of termination such that the end of the MiNP would fall
within the MCP, the guidance in respect of early termination, set out above, will
apply.

F. Itemised or Paper Billing

A description of the charge

A1.108 The itemised or paper billing charge is a charge made to consumers for the
provision of a fully itemised or paper bill. For broadband suppliers itemisation is not
relevant, but some of these suppliers charge for paper bills.

A1.109 Our research indicates that as at August 2007, about half of non broadband
suppliers charged for itemised paper bills � generally between 50p and £1.50 per
bill. BT offers a discount of 50p a month from the headline service price for
paperless billing (i.e. £1.50 per bill for those billed quarterly).

A1.110 All the suppliers we looked at provided at least a basic level of paper billing for no
extra charge for voice or mobile telephony services. (Since by definition broadband
users have online access, the fact that some suppliers charge for any level of paper
billing is less of a concern to us.) Some provided a free paper bill for tariffs above a
certain level. However, all the suppliers that we looked at provide online itemised
bills at no charge.

Ofcom�s guidance

Instances where a term providing for an itemised or paper billing charge may be a
core term

A1.111 An itemised bill is a means by which the supplier sets out the nature of the service
that has been provided under the contractual agreement, enabling the consumer to
verify this.

A1.112 As with the non-DD charge, we consider that there may be circumstances where
the charge for itemised or paper billing may be considered a core term and
therefore not subject to the test of fairness, provided it is in plain and intelligible
language.

A1.113 We take the view that, in order to be likely to be considered a core term, any term
which provides for an itemised or paper billing charge must be set out in such a way
that the typical consumer would: (1) regard it as part of the price paid in exchange
for the services he is buying under the contract and part of the essential bargain
with the supplier, rather than as an incidental, additional charge, separate from that
price; and (2) would be aware of the level of information or billing which is thereby
provided by comparison with the basic, or standard, level of billing.

A1.114 We consider that the latter requirement arises from the fact that, in order to benefit
from the Regulations� core terms exemption, as terms relating to the adequacy of

Best practice

As a matter of best practice, Ofcom also considers it is important that suppliers
make it very clear to consumers what the minimum notice period is at the point at
which the consumer is considering terminating their contract.

Note the best practice regarding the importance of making it clear about the minimum notice period when I was considering terminating my contract.

BT have not implemented this best practice regardless that Ofcom considers that it is important.

A migration can take 5 days, it can also take 28 days. Perhaps the notice period needs to be worked out on an individual basis then?

Given a MAC has a life span of 28 days, it is probably fair to say that if BT had a notice period of greater than 28 days it would be unfair. A period of 14 days seems fair to me, but not to you. That is the joy of life, in that unless Ofcom actually STATES CATEGORICALLY that a notice periods cannot be longer than X days then providers lawyers will interpret the rules in various fashions.

There are also other parts of the Ofcom rules that mean issuing of a MAC should not be seen as notice of leaving, i.e. that service should NOT cease at MAC + 14 days (if 14 day notice). Your interpretation would mean requesting a MAC that lasts for 28 days is very risky, particularly as some providers are slow to use them and migration is not always fast to occur.

The more I think about it the more I realise that BT's legals with regards to notice is unfair.

You appear to go along with the notion that companies should be allows to enforce a notice period even when it extends beyond the service termination date.

Why accept it?

Why is it seemingly fair to you that a company can enforce such notice periods after the MCP has expired?

You have as much right to a fair notice period as BT does. The law protects you! You do not have to accept an unfair notice period.

Ofcom ruled that:

the MiNP reflects a reasonable period in which to carry out the necessary
administration of terminating the contract.

Even providing BT with 5 days of notice is being generous and other suppliers who require longer are abusing their position as far as I am concerned.

If you believe those "guidelines" are "black & white", you do not have much understanding of Contract Law!

I've tried to be open-minded, in my posts, & I've NOT assumed that you have been in the wrong (perhaps genuinely misunderstanding the situation, but not in the wrong).

You are determined to assume (assume = ASS out of U & ME) that everyone else is wrong & that you are completely in the right, regardless.

Clearly, you have the right to that opinion (but that is all it is - opinion), but I'm not going to bother trying to help anymore.

In the words of the TV Programme, Dragons Den, "I'm out of here"!

Why bother with a notice period at all? In an electronic world surely if I phone up, an ISP can provide to the millisecond billing detail for me?

No it's not about being right or wrong it's about fairness.

I think I am being reasonable. My take on it is fair. Why is that so difficult to agree with?

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Why bother with a notice period at all? In an electronic world surely if I phone up, an ISP can provide to the millisecond billing detail for me?

It's a means of extracting additional revenue from the outgoing customer

Ofcom clarified what is considered a fair notice period and the reasoning behind it.

The notice period might benefit the customer on some level but what exactly are we paying it for? Obviously it isn't unreasonable to legally include a notice period in the contract terms so it does pay for something. Ofcom say it's the administration costs. What are the administration duties we are paying for?

Admin let me think...

Closing down the account
Ensuring people have paid their final bill
Calculating any excess usage charges
Shifting the email account to the 90 day access system
Recovery of hardware

But all that is irrelevant to you, as I thought it was about BT charging you beyond the notice period, or them not having accepted that you had previously given notice.

Seems the thread has turned into a lets reform the notice period system, which at 14 days with BT is lower than a good many other services.

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

Please supply a link to this quote. I cannot see it in Ofcom's Migrations Authorisation Code (MAC) Broadband Migrations Process Code of Practice.

In reply to a post by jreckon:

When the LSP is notified that a migration has taken place, the customer�s notice period (i.e. the date at which notice to discontinue service is taken for the purposes of calculating any outstanding subscription charges under the contract) will be taken to have commenced on the issue date of the MAC, or on the date of any prior notice to terminate, whichever is the earlier.

It seems unfair to the ISP:

Day 0: You request receive a MAC which has a life of 30 days
Day 25: You sign up to another ISP presenting MAC
Day 35: Other ISP migrates your BB ceasing your BT BB

Quoted Ofcom statement says notice started on Day 0 and ends on Day14, according to BT's T&Cs. So you pay BT only up to Day 14 and pay other ISP from Day 35.

So you get 21 days free BB? Is that right?

EDIT: No, it's not correct. That quote is not an obligation on the ISP and has been introduced here as a red herring.

I missed your Ninja Edit!

I wonder if you are able to refute this:

E. Minimum Notice Periods

Description of the charge

104. Whether or not there is a MCP, CPs usually require consumers to provide
formal notification of an intention to terminate a contract for communications
services.

105. Ofcom has seen contracts in which the Minimum Notice Period (�MiNP�) is
30 days or one calendar month, and consumers are required to make
payments up to the end of that period even if they wish to terminate the
contract (and the service) earlier. Ofcom has also seen shorter MiNPs is
some contracts, especially for fixed voice services.

Ofcom�s guidance

Terms providing for MiNPs are likely to be non-exempt

106. We consider that the MiNP is unlikely to be an exempt matter. The terms
providing for a MiNP do not define the main subject matter of the contract.
So, those terms, and the length of the MiNP, are likely to be subject to the
fairness test.

The fairness test for MiNPs

107. We consider a term providing for an MiNP is likely to be fair where:

107.1 the MiNP is transparent to consumers within the contract at the
point of sale; and

107.2 the MiNP reflects a reasonable period in which to carry out the
necessary administration of terminating the contract.

108. Failure to set MiNPs according to the principle in the second bullet point
would be likely to lead to consumers having to bear an unjustified risk of
ceasing service with the losing CP before the end of the MiNP, and of
having to pay two CPs for a period of time in order to ensure a sufficient
degree of overlap and no loss of service.

109. In addition, most of the communications services to which this Guidance
applies are subject to formal service migration processes. These entitle
consumers to change CPs in specified time periods. A contract term
providing for a MiNP significantly longer than those periods risks frustrating
that right, by requiring consumers to pay for services longer than they
receive them. It is at risk of unfairness, especially where the MiNP is longer
than the period reasonably required to administer the termination of the
contract.

110. For fixed voice and broadband services, where the formal service migration
processes which apply are likely to take between 5 and 10 working days, we
consider this is likely to be a sufficient period for the necessary
administration of terminating the contract. We consider that a longer MiNP
in a contract for such services is liable to be unfair. This should mean the
date the CP stops charging the consumer is not later than the date on which
the service migration occurs.

111. For mobile services, and in any sector where no formal migration process
applies, we consider that the MiNP should be no longer than reasonably
necessary for the required administration. We see no reason why this
should in any event be longer than 30 days and likely much less.

112. If the consumer gives notice of termination such that the end of the MiNP
would fall within the MCP, the guidance in respect of early termination, set
out in section C above, will apply.

Best practice

As a matter of best practice, Ofcom also considers it is important that CPs make it
very clear to consumers what the minimum notice period is not only at the point of
sale but also at the point at which the consumer is considering terminating their
contract.

Do you work for BT?

Edited by deleted (Tue 26-Mar-13 15:52:01)