FTTC Wireless 802.11n Router

Can someone recommend me a router that has the following specs:

4 x 1 gbps ethernet LAN ports
1 x 1gbps WAN port (PPPoE compatible)
IPv6 Compatible

802.11n with 3 x 3 Tx Rx antennas with 3 spatial streams.

TIA.

Edited by Bobby_Valentino (Mon 30-May-11 12:50:12)

Netgear N600 ?

In reply to a post by epyon:

Netgear N600 ?

Only 2 spatial streams for that one

Edited by Bobby_Valentino (Mon 30-May-11 16:11:45)

Not sure why you need a gigabit WAN port for FTTC, 10/100Mbps is plenty fast enough provided the internal processor has the necessary muscle to handle the other high-speed ports.

edit- the port on the OpenReach modem is only 10/100Mbps anyway.

The Billion 7800N seems to fit everything else, though you'll need the beta firmware for IPv6.

Edited by billford (Mon 30-May-11 16:32:55)

In reply to a post by billford:

Not sure why you need a gigabit WAN port for FTTC, 10/100Mbps is plenty fast enough provided the internal processor has the necessary muscle to handle the other high-speed ports.

More likely to be wanted so that devices on the LAN with gigabit NICs (e.g. pretty much every modern desktop) can transfer data to each other at 1 Gbps.

In reply to a post by Oliver341:

More likely to be wanted so that devices on the LAN with gigabit NICs (e.g. pretty much every modern desktop) can transfer data to each other at 1 Gbps.

Why would intra-LAN transfers need to worry about the WAN port?

I agree the need for gigabit LAN ports, it's the WAN port speed I'm questioning.

In reply to a post by billford:

I agree the need for gigabit LAN ports, it's the WAN port speed I'm questioning.

Ah right. Perhaps future proofing then.

In reply to a post by Oliver341:

Ah right. Perhaps future proofing then.

That would be a fair-enough reason, but I suspect he'll be drawing a pension before he needs anything faster than 100Mbps on a BT connection

In reply to a post by billford:

In reply to a post by Oliver341:

Ah right. Perhaps future proofing then.

That would be a fair-enough reason, but I suspect he'll be drawing a pension before he needs anything faster than 100Mbps on a BT connection

and I don't think there are any consumer routers available in UK that can do it (yet) either?

In reply to a post by Anonymous:

and I don't think there are any consumer routers available in UK that can do it (yet) either?

I'm pretty sure the Apple Airport Extreme has a gigabit WAN port (can't find the spec for the moment), but it won't handle native IPv6- it uses a (built-in) 6to4 tunnel.

That's why mine got relegated to "spare router" status.

http://www.broadbandbuyer.co.uk/Finders/Routers/?WLA...

I haven't checked all of those, but the ones I have looked at claim 4 x gigabit Ethernet ports but avoid stating the speed of the WAN port...

Haven't looks at the specs of all, but the Drayteks and Billion have gigabit WAN ports

In reply to a post by billford:

In reply to a post by Oliver341:

Ah right. Perhaps future proofing then.

That would be a fair-enough reason, but I suspect he'll be drawing a pension before he needs anything faster than 100Mbps on a BT connection

Yeah its mostly for future proofing but I guess your right with BT and gbps speeds
But the Linksys E4200 looks like it matches everything I want. I wonder if the WAN port is compatible with BT's VDSL modem (PPPoE compliant?)

For the Billion (and the Drayteks, come to that), where does it explicitly claim the WAN port is gigabit? It sort of skirts around it on the pages I've seen...

Re the Airport Extreme- yes, it's a gigabit WAN port:

In reference to www.apple.com/uk/airportextreme/specs.html:

Interfaces
One Gigabit Ethernet WAN port for connecting a DSL or cable modem
Three Gigabit Ethernet LAN ports for connecting computers or network devices
USB 2.0 port for connecting a USB printer or USB external hard drive
802.11n wireless

Edited by billford (Mon 30-May-11 20:07:43)

In reply to a post by Bobby_Valentino:

But the Linksys E4200 looks like it matches everything I want. I wonder if the WAN port is compatible with BT's VDSL modem (PPPoE compliant?)

Looks a good router (though personally I'm not keen on either Netgear or Linksys).

It should be FTTC compatible... but it doesn't claim that the WAN port is gigabit, only the 4 LAN ports, and I can't see any mention of IPv6?

The output from the OR modem is pure ethernet. You don't even need a router for a simple connection. There shouldn't be a problem with any cable router, so the one under discussion should be fine.

The only reason I said "should" rather than "will" is because I couldn't see any mention of PPPoE... and as should be clear from my other comments in this thread, I prefer to go by what it says in the technical spec

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

The output from the OR modem is pure ethernet. You don't even need a router for a simple connection. There shouldn't be a problem with any cable router, so the one under discussion should be fine.

I should think it needs to be able to do PPPoE. Not just straight Ethernet. Chances are if you connect directly then it is because the OS stack can easily speak PPPoE.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but otherwise it'd not make much sense.

In reply to a post by Anonymous:

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

The output from the OR modem is pure ethernet. You don't even need a router for a simple connection. There shouldn't be a problem with any cable router, so the one under discussion should be fine.

I should think it needs to be able to do PPPoE. Not just straight Ethernet. Chances are if you connect directly then it is because the OS stack can easily speak PPPoE.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but otherwise it'd not make much sense.

Oops! Yes indeed. But although it needs checking, is it conceivable that it won't, with a spec like that?

I would be quite surprised if there were many/any modern devices like this offered 1000 on one side and 100 on the other. I'd guess they'd only do that if it was cheaper and that seems unlikely for the simple reason that the ethernet interfaces on these things are typically made up of a small (as few as possible) number of chips, with the only thing distinguishing "WAN" from "LAN" being VLAN tagging within the device marking where a given packet came from.

Edited by deleted (Mon 30-May-11 22:21:54)

In reply to a post by awoodland:

I would be quite surprised if there were many/any modern devices like this offered 1000 on one side and 100 on the other.

Possibly... but look at that Linksys.

There are clearly 5 Ethernet ports on the rear, but the spec explicitly states

Ethernet ports x speed

4 x Gigabit

.
If all 5 were gigabit I'd expect the advertising department to insist that it said so. Pretty much the same applies to all the other routers I've looked at (except the Apple)- the "Features" text often suggests fully gigabit with careful phraseology, but the spec doesn't mention the WAN speed.

The general descriptive-only bits aren't subject to the Sale of Goods Act in detail, the technical spec is.

The Linksys supports PPPoE, as do the others I linked to at BroadbandBuyer

I missed out the bit about chip count... considering that most routers have four LAN ports and 4-way switches are dirt cheap, I'd think it quite likely that there's an easily available single chip that will handle four gigabit Ethernet ports.

So one of those and another cheap chip (possibly the same one that Huawei use in the modem) for the single 10/100 WAN port... no need to go faster as there isn't a domestically-available broadband connection¹ that will run faster than that.


¹ Certainly in the UK, possibly in Europe.

Edited by billford (Mon 30-May-11 23:13:43)

Draytek 2830 has a gigabit WAN port iirc.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

In reply to a post by Anonymous:

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

The output from the OR modem is pure ethernet. You don't even need a router for a simple connection. There shouldn't be a problem with any cable router, so the one under discussion should be fine.

I should think it needs to be able to do PPPoE. Not just straight Ethernet. Chances are if you connect directly then it is because the OS stack can easily speak PPPoE.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but otherwise it'd not make much sense.

Oops! Yes indeed. But although it needs checking, is it conceivable that it won't, with a spec like that?

Me again (dustofnations), on a machine where I can't log in atm.

Could you clarify what you mean by "it needs checking, it is conceivable that it won't, with a spec like that". Not sure I grasp exactly what you intend to ask/comment!

Anyway you need PPP to provide authentication and important LCP stuff to negotiate packet sizes, byte ordering and so on.

In reply to a post by Pipexer:

Draytek 2830 has a gigabit WAN port iirc.

That one seems to be 10/100 on all ports?

In reference to www.broadbandbuyer.co.uk/Shop/Specifications.asp?ProductID=10743:

Physical Interfaces

LAN: 4-port 10/100 Base-TX Switch
WAN: 2-port 10/100 Base-TX Ethernet

But at least they specify the speed of the WAN port

In reply to a post by billford:

In reply to a post by Pipexer:

Draytek 2830 has a gigabit WAN port iirc.

That one seems to be 10/100 on all ports?

In reference to www.broadbandbuyer.co.uk/Shop/Specifications.asp?ProductID=10743:

Physical Interfaces

LAN: 4-port 10/100 Base-TX Switch
WAN: 2-port 10/100 Base-TX Ethernet

But at least they specify the speed of the WAN port

The Draytek website seemed to imply that the secondary WAN fail-over port is gigabit. Not sure though.

I think your best bet is to go for a "standard" one with 100Mbps WAN for now, and then migrate to something fast in 10 years or whatever. Unless you have an imminent use-case for gig WAN?

I missed out the bit about chip count... considering that most routers have four LAN ports and 4-way switches are dirt cheap, I'd think it quite likely that there's an easily available single chip that will handle four gigabit Ethernet ports.

PCB image

The realtek switch chip in question is 5 ports +1 and definitely does support 1000 on all switch ports too, according to the datasheet for it at least. (The 5+1 is because the switch has 5 PHYs attached, but there's a link to the processor on the router too)

You might be right though about running the WAN at 10/100 shaving some money off though actually. Looking at the PCB tracks on an example in the linked image it seems there's 2x2 chips which I assume are media converters and a 3rd, smaller one which could well be 10/100. I can't quite make out the part number on the WAN port one though.

Thanks for that, especially the datasheet.

I didn't realise that quite so much was implemented in the hardware, it's a busy little chip!

In reply to a post by billford:

In reply to a post by Pipexer:

Draytek 2830 has a gigabit WAN port iirc.

That one seems to be 10/100 on all ports?

In reference to www.broadbandbuyer.co.uk/Shop/Specifications.asp?ProductID=10743:

Physical Interfaces

LAN: 4-port 10/100 Base-TX Switch
WAN: 2-port 10/100 Base-TX Ethernet

But at least they specify the speed of the WAN port

All that Broadbandbuyer have done is changed the title from 2820 to 2830, they haven't updated the specification of the router, as the comparison at the bottom demonstrates http://www.draytek.co.uk/products/vigor2830.html

Ah, thanks. Pipexer was right, the WAN port is gigabit.

Not a cheap router... and no mention of IPv6. Strange, the OP's requirements don't seem to be particularly onerous but I don't think any of the routers mentioned so far have met all of them

Edited by billford (Tue 31-May-11 19:57:38)

Hi BatBoy

Thank you for highlighting the spec error and apologies to everyone for the confusion we caused.

The error will be corrected later on today.

Regards
Giles

Edited by deleted (Wed 01-Jun-11 09:37:18)

Hi Bobby

Have you considered the WNDR4000 - It's a new router coming out in 2 weeks time. Supports IPv6, 3x3 on 2.4GHz.

Check out the manual for IPv6 and the other features.
ftp://downloads.netgear.com/files/WNDR4000/Documenta...

I am also aware the Linksys e4200 is due to have IPv6 support in a future firmware update. But until it comes out, it's not guaranteed.

Regards
Giles

In reply to a post by BBWizard:

Hi Bobby

Have you considered the WNDR4000 - It's a new router coming out in 2 weeks time. Supports IPv6, 3x3 on 2.4GHz.

Check out the manual for IPv6 and the other features.
ftp://downloads.netgear.com/files/WNDR4000/Documenta...

I am also aware the Linksys e4200 is due to have IPv6 support in a future firmware update. But until it comes out, it's not guaranteed.

Regards
Giles

Is this entirely accurate, it says in the SmallNetBuilder review that the "� Three stream N on 5 GHz band only "

http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/wireless/wireless-rev...

The routing performance is actually _slower_ than its predecessors, which is slightly disappointing.

Probably fits the bill more broadly though, although my experiences with Netgear support and firmware is overwhelmingly bad. You could try to use an alternative firmware, but most of them are having trouble with supporting multi-stream at present.

That is correct, Linksys/ Netgear have chosen chipsets with 3x3 on 5GHz for the time being. I did have a 3x3 2.4GHz router in mind when replying but it didn't have confirmed IPv6 support therefore I changed at the last minute to the Netgear but accidently left the 3x3 on 2.4.

The ones I am interested in are the simultaneous 3x3 on both 2.4 & 5GHz. TP-Link�s TL-WR2843ND & TrendNet�s TEW-692GR have been announced. There are also some simultaneous dual band USB adapters and 3x3 USB adapters coming out soon too.

In reply to a post by BBWizard:

That is correct, Linksys/ Netgear have chosen chipsets with 3x3 on 5GHz for the time being. I did have a 3x3 2.4GHz router in mind when replying but it didn't have confirmed IPv6 support therefore I changed at the last minute to the Netgear but accidently left the 3x3 on 2.4.

The ones I am interested in are the simultaneous 3x3 on both 2.4 & 5GHz. TP-Link�s TL-WR2843ND & TrendNet�s TEW-692GR have been announced. There are also some simultaneous dual band USB adapters and 3x3 USB adapters coming out soon too.

It does peeve me that router manufacturers are pushing new _hardware_ to deal with issues such as IPv6 which is effectively a firmware problem (IPv6 has been available in the Linux kernel since 93 or so). Just imagine all of the waste electronics stacking up and/or being land filled, recycled somewhere because of some _software_. Urgh.

Some of the worst aspects of capitalism really.

edit:

the TEW-692GR http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/wireless/wireless-new...

Edited by deleted (Thu 02-Jun-11 16:34:36)

In reply to a post by dustofnations:

It does peeve me that router manufacturers are pushing new _hardware_ to deal with issues such as IPv6 which is effectively a firmware problem (IPv6 has been available in the Linux kernel since 93 or so). Just imagine all of the waste electronics stacking up and/or being land filled, recycled somewhere because of some _software_. Urgh.

Not to mention the incredible amount of waste due to customers leaving an ISP with a locked, useless router. EU directive time methinks.

In reply to a post by Oliver341:

In reply to a post by dustofnations:

It does peeve me that router manufacturers are pushing new _hardware_ to deal with issues such as IPv6 which is effectively a firmware problem (IPv6 has been available in the Linux kernel since 93 or so). Just imagine all of the waste electronics stacking up and/or being land filled, recycled somewhere because of some _software_. Urgh.

Not to mention the incredible amount of waste due to customers leaving an ISP with a locked, useless router. EU directive time methinks.

I was having a think about your idea, and I think it could work in a way that keeps manufacturers and consumers happy (in the interim). Make it a legal obligation to allow consumers to put their own software onto the device in a simple manner. That way people could hypothetically pay for new firmware, or use some open source solution.

Sure at first most punters would keep doing it the old way and buying new hardware each time, so you might be able to get it past the industry lobbyists, but in the longer term the consumer would probably become wise - with the manufacturers probably changing tack a bit.

Just a thought really. It will probably never happen .

Yeah, sound like good ideas. Firstly, I don't think routers should be free, electrical equipment has an environmental price in terms of disposal, no reason the consumers shouldn't see this. They're becoming disposable items like supermarket carrier bags (which I also believe shouldn't be free). Secondly, all routers provided by ISPs should be unlocked and able to use on other ISPs, so that customers switching ISP do not need to get a new router (thus saving them the router fee).

This doesn't apply to the O2/BE model of giving out routers on a free lease, as they take them back at the end and (hopefully) do the right thing.

Anyone care to post any updates since I last created this thread back in May?

there is a new BT Business hub which may meet your requirements - it is on trial at present, but as I use VOIP they have excluded me from te trial so I cannot confirm all of the spec, but it certainly is 802.11n, has Gigabit WAN port and possible LAN

Anything else?

No, cannot squeeze anything more from them. I have tried.

Any updates on 3 spatial stream routers with WAN ethernet?

Have you been snooping on my email?

I had a message today from the BT team working on the new business hub - but no more information!