Which Modem Router in a Broadband Slowspot?

We are based in rural Wales, in a broadband slow spot ( best speed about 1.3 Mb, worst about 0.4 Mb). We�re about 4.5 miles from the telephone exchange. For the last few months, our service has been noticeably worse, with many short interruptions. The interruptions are more frequent when both computers are on line at the same time. We have a new iMac and MacBook Pro and our modem router is a Netgear N150 Wireless ADSL2+. Is there any chance that another router would give a better performance? I�d be most grateful for any advice.

What is the performance like when they are directly connected to the router (rather than using wireless)?

Also, what is the performance like if the router is connected directly to the BT master socket rather than through any extension cabling?

Edited by micksharpe (Thu 13-Sep-12 15:29:58)

In reply to a post by micksharpe:

What is the performance like when they are directly connected to the router (rather than using wireless)?

Also, what is the performance like if the router is connected directly to the BT master socket rather than through any extension cabling?

We tend to use the ethernet cables because they are slightly more stable - but only slightly!

Router is connected directly to BT master socket. All cables are as short as possible.

What line stats is the router reporting?

http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/frogstats.php#top

Can you post your line stats reported by the router please?

May be in Maintenance | Router Status | Show Statistics

This is definitely not the first thing that you should do but if your connection to the exchange is as good as it can be, you could ask your ISP to turn on interleaving.

In reply to a post by MinnieMinno:

Router is connected directly to BT master socket.

Try test socket hidden behind faceplate.

In reply to a post by Apprentice:

What line stats is the router reporting?

http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/frogstats.php#top

I hope you can make some sense of this! It's the best copy I can make so far as I couldn't find our how to put a screenshot on this forum

System Up Time 02:53:00
Port Status TxPkts RxPkts Collisions Tx B/s Rx B/s Up Time
WAN PPPoA 87263 107955 0 798 13114 02:52:20
LAN 10M/100M 109215 88936 0 13271 827 02:52:42
WLAN 54M/65M/150M 2177 883 0 36 13 02:52:45

ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 1216 Kbps 448 Kbps
Line Attenuation 61.6 dB 31.5 dB
Noise Margin 13.4 dB 15.0 dB

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

In reply to a post by MinnieMinno:

Router is connected directly to BT master socket.

Try test socket hidden behind faceplate.

We were using the test socket until the last BT engineer gave us a new socket with integral filter. He said this would give the best performance. What do you think? Should we go back to the test socket?

Interesting stats. The attenuation indicates your line length is about 4.5 kilometres or 2.8 miles.

Did you use a phone in the test socket when you were using it or just broadband?

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

Interesting stats. The attenuation indicates your line length is about 4.5 kilometres or 2.8 miles.

Did you use a phone in the test socket when you were using it or just broadband?

We had one BT filter with a phone connected and the modem router. Now we have the same set-up with the BT filter plate. No extra phone cable as we have a Siemens Gigaset. We bought that in order to cut down on phone cabling in the house.

Yes, router choice can make a big difference to your broadband connection!
See the link in my signature for my router story. The N150 isn't the best in my experience.

You are on a long line with that attenuation so you can't expect a lot more though - see MrSaffron's(TBB) calculator: www.coolwebhome.co.uk/calc/calculator.php

You need to read up (lots of info here on TBB!) about how to optimise your line to get the most out of it and to understand how things work...

In reply to a post by MinnieMinno:

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

Interesting stats. The attenuation indicates your line length is about 4.5 kilometres or 2.8 miles.

Did you use a phone in the test socket when you were using it or just broadband?

We had one BT filter with a phone connected and the modem router. Now we have the same set-up with the BT filter plate. No extra phone cable as we have a Siemens Gigaset. We bought that in order to cut down on phone cabling in the house.

Are you sure that you don't have any extension sockets in the house that are not in use. If you have, do they still work with or without the filtered faceplate fitted to the master socket, i.e. phone and modem/router connected to the front of the faceplate or phone and modem/router connected, via a dangle filter, to the test socket?

Are you sure that you don't have any extension sockets in the house that are not in use. If you have, do they still work with or without the filtered faceplate fitted to the master socket, i.e. phone and modem/router connected to the front of the faceplate or phone and modem/router connected, via a dangle filter, to the test socket?


Absolutely sure! We took them all out. Our only landline connection is the Gigaset and the base is plugged into the master socket.

In reply to a post by b4dger:

Yes, router choice can make a big difference to your broadband connection!
See the link in my signature for my router story. The N150 isn't the best in my experience.

You are on a long line with that attenuation so you can't expect a lot more though - see MrSaffron's(TBB) calculator: www.coolwebhome.co.uk/calc/calculator.php

You need to read up (lots of info here on TBB!) about how to optimise your line to get the most out of it and to understand how things work...

Help! I'll do my best to make sense of your report, but please remember I'm not a techie! It's hard for me to understand how electricity 'works', let alone broadband....

Can you unplug the phone and get the stats again, this time from the test socket?

Nobody's mentioned the 13.4dB noise margin?

In reply to a post by MinnieMinno:

Are you sure that you don't have any extension sockets in the house that are not in use. If you have, do they still work with or without the filtered faceplate fitted to the master socket, i.e. phone and modem/router connected to the front of the faceplate or phone and modem/router connected, via a dangle filter, to the test socket?

"Absolutely sure! We took them all out. Our only landline connection is the Gigaset and the base is plugged into the master socket."

Do you have a corded phone (not the cordless phones) that you can use for a quiet line test that you can plug directly into the master test socket?

Edited by 4M2 (Thu 13-Sep-12 18:57:12)

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

Can you unplug the phone and get the stats again, this time from the test socket?

Here are the results with modem/router plugged directly into test socket and no phone:



System Up Time 04:00:39
Port Status TxPkts RxPkts Collisions Tx B/s Rx B/s Up Time
WAN PPPoA 2550 2783 0 4419 44258 00:01:06
LAN 10M/100M 137105 113808 0 11626 792 04:00:21
WLAN 54M/65M/150M 3414 1458 0 40 15 04:00:24

ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 1248 Kbps 448 Kbps
Line Attenuation 61.9 dB 31.5 dB
Noise Margin 13.3 dB 14.0 dB

(By the way, I have to sign off for a while, but I'll check in again later this evening or early tomorrow.)

Edited by deleted (Thu 13-Sep-12 17:54:14)

In reply to a post by MinnieMinno:

We were using the test socket until the last BT engineer gave us a new socket with integral filter.

That socket still has a hidden test socket. Get stats after removing that filtered faceplate and plugging router via dangly filter.

is the calculator actually working properly? i think it only says 'very good' for adsl2+ with a low attenuation if one enters Downstream Connection Speed (Kilo bits per second) as 200000 (one zero too many)

i'm entering the following details:

Connection Type: ADSL2+
Downstream Connection Speed (Kilo bits per second): 20900
Downstream Attenuation(dB): 5
Downstream Noise Margin/SNR (dB): 9

and getting the following result:

Estimated connection speed using ADSL2+ mode (maximum 24 Mbps)
Red traffic light, actual speed is low
Bad
Normal speed range at 5dB attenuation is 21500 Kbps to 21500 Kbps
Target Margin Estimate
9dB 20900
6dB 22800
3dB 2280000

Noise Margin 13.4 dB 15.0 dB

NOSIE MARGIN 13.4 DB. INDICATES THAT YOU CAN GET BETTER SPEEDS....

Router wise, that router has pretty poor wireless that barely covers any range. ADSL wise it's not great at getting a good sync either.
There are much much worse ones out there though. So overall it's not too bad.

I'd personally try out a NETGEAR DG834 V3 or a speedtouch 585 as both are good at holding sync. The netgear gets better speeds but the speedtouch is more stable in experience.

You don't need anything with fancy wifi as the speeds already so slow.

TBH though you can get better speeds with the current router. There's no guarantees an alternative router would be ANY better. I would personally try to get that noise margin down to 6db which means figuring out why it's so high. Soo take this course of action before spending dollor.

Edited by ukhardy07 (Thu 13-Sep-12 19:08:30)

Why is the nosie margin so high?

Something's causing it. Could be a faulty sky box, lamp-post outside, poor internal wiring, unfiltered extension, etc etc...

I edited my response slightly. The key thing here is to find what's causing the high SNR rather than spending money on routers.

It seems given the op's original post that they're experiencing some instability even with this high SNR which is never good.

We did that - plugged router into test socket, stats unchanged.
I think the line speed is capped.

I wouldn't say 'capped.'
I would say on purposely restricted due to some noise / error build up. Generally things only get capped because of an issue somewhere.

a 13db noise margin is ever so weird though - especially after a resync. I expected 12 or 15db after a resync but all of the stats have been around 13db. This points more towards a cap on the sync and not a noise margin increase due to instability.

No mention of who the ISP is that I can see.

TEST socket isn't always the full story. PLENTY of times I've found that some extensions still work even when the faceplate is removed. So many houses have star wiring and a master stuck on randomly somewhere. Definitely worth a consideration.

Not only this but REIN or just poor quality wiring / a very long line from the exchange can often mean a 6db noise margin isn't stable (and this is beyond the users control).

Anyho, I'll stop butting in as much as possible.

Edited by ukhardy07 (Thu 13-Sep-12 19:26:26)

Very good points, well worth thinking about (except the last).

Why not the last?

It's very likely given the users line length that the reason for the higher noise margin is not inside their property. Longer lines often have much 'flappier' noise margins and therefore need higher target noise margins to remain stable without drop outs.

A longer line = more suseptable to outside interference and more likely to pass something which emits some kind of REIN.

Also the cabling may all not be underground which can have an impact.

The wiring outside is very important in my opinion. It's definitely worth thinking about. Given that they have tried the TEST socket, if this is wired up correctly & does disconnect all extensions then it does point to outside the property which is beyond their control.

Edited by ukhardy07 (Thu 13-Sep-12 19:33:38)

Line looks like a 20CN line, so 1216 is not a valid cap speed.

What seems likely is that DLM saw some instability and raised target margin to 12dB. The router may have contributed and possible previous wiring issues.

So if ISP can reset target noise margin to 6dB, you should see better speeds, whether they will be stable is anyones guess. As for best hardware, it is very much experiment to see which cope with the line length (which is 5.5km or more, not 4.5km as one said) and also the various local noise sources.

Overhead cabling if twisted pair generally has very little impact, and if it was that as constant noise you would be seeing a 6dB target and the same sync.

The calculator gives that result because ADSL2+ should really sync at around 21500 or faster on a line that is probably just 100m from the telephone exchange to the home.

In reply to a post by ukhardy07:

Why not the last?

I think he means the "Anyho, I'll stop butting in as much as possible" . He doesn't think you should stop.

Oh i think you're right! My apologies.

Let me provide some more background information:

Our ISP is Virgin.

In June, we received a direct lightning strike through the phone line. There was no warning (otherwise all equipment would have been disconnected) - just a sudden bang and flash overhead. The phone master socket was burnt out, the modem/router blown apart and blackened inside, two computers and a printer damaged beyond repair. Luckily, our insurance covered replacements.

Netgear N150 Modem Router: we were advised by Maplin and PC World staff that there was no point in buying a more expensive machine because it would make no difference due to the poor quality of our line. However, as others have noted, the wireless function of this machine is very limited - it gives up at any brick wall. It also seems to have a habit of blocking when two computers are using the line, which was not the case with our old, non-wireless Netgear machine (sorry, can�t remember the model number).

Even before the lightning strike, we noticed that our service was deteriorating. In the last couple of months, Open Reach engineers have visited us about six times. They have rewired the black box on the pole outside and�after we applied considerable pressure�replaced two sections of cable in the road where the trees were abrading the cable. This did impove reception slightly. The engineers told us that we can�t really expect a better speed in this remote location.as our phone exchange is in the village approx. 4.5 miles away.

We�ve considered getting a Welsh Assembly grant for a satellite connection but have discounted this option because of the high monthly charges for data.

Mr Saffron writes that we should get the noise margin reset to 6dB. How can we arrange this?

It's something the ISP can do.

I had a similar problem. 3 Engineers visited, all said the problem was fixed. A fourth engineer noted a fault 300 mtrs from the house and went out to investigate it. When he returned he said that he had found the fault, carried out a temporary repair , showed me on his test equipment that the fault had been fixed. (None of the others had done this!). The speed went up to 1800Mpbs. The speed has started to drop again. No permanent repair has been carried out on the faulty joint but trying to get the Talk Talk Broadband Service to get BT to fix the faulty joint is of no effect. They insist that an engineer needs to check inside my home to sort the problem.
It is also typical that the Online Help keep insisting that I connect to the Master Socket and appear not to understand that I have a seperate ADSL socket fitted.
Good luck with your problem!

In reply to a post by Anonymous:

...It is also typical that the Online Help keep insisting that I connect to the Master Socket and appear not to understand that I have a seperate ADSL socket fitted...

They probably mean the test socket

I've spoken to Virgin's Technical Support. They will ask Open Reach to lower the noise margin to 6dB and this will probably happen in about 5 days time. Tech Support warned me that lowering the noise margin might result in an intermittent broadband connection. Do you think this is likely?

When the noise margin is changed, I'll monitor our speed and post the results here.

Might be worth a try when you are at home over the w/end, powerdown (switch it off)) the router last thing at night or around 8.00am the following morning and unplug the power brick and leave it off for a few hours. Connect the router directly into the test socket eventually plug the router's power brick back in and power up at around1.00pm to 2.00pm.
Don't plug in/connect the phone, take the router stats ASAP.

This shows you the TEST socket within a BT master socket.

Does the router get very hot to touch when in use?

Harry

Yes it's likely. It's probably high for a reason, but monitoring the sync speed and the noise margin may give you some idea of what's causing it.

There is a PC application that can do this for you called Routerstats, but I don't know if it works on Macs.

Oops. Nothing to do with Openreach

Virgin will get onto C&W who manage their off net broadband, who will chase BT Wholesale who control the DSLAM (as you appear to be non-LLU too)

Lower margin may result in instability, but if its bad systems should see this and raise the margin again. 5 days - that sounds like bull, unless that is how long the various layers will take to talk to each other. More like someone has quoted you the maximum IP profile change period.

Never take advice from Maplin or PCWorld again, the N150 is not the best for long lines by a long way. Plenty of people swear by Billion devices though.

By way of comparison this is what I'm currently getting, same attenuation but over 3 times faster. That's with a good old Netgear DG834GT with DGTeam firmware and noise margin set to 50% of default.

ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 4535 kbps 971 kbps
Line Attenuation 62.0 db 38.9 db
Noise Margin 3.5 db 6.2 db

OP may have an Virgin ADSL MAX service though...are you on ADSL2?

In reply to a post by MinnieMinno:

They will ask Open Reach to lower the noise margin to 6dB

OR don't deal with NMs; they are responsible for only the cabling/wiring.

It's your ISP who can adjust the NM.

Using DG834GT (wired) + Firmware Version V1.03.22 - DGTeam Rev. 1018
Exchange is 20CN and line stats just now are:-

ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 4000 kbps 448 kbps
Line Attenuation 62.0 db 30.5 db
Noise Margin 4.6db 16.0 db

In reply to a post by Apprentice:

Using DG834GT (wired) + Firmware Version V1.03.22 - DGTeam Rev. 1018
Exchange is 20CN and line stats just now are:-

ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 4000 kbps 448 kbps
Line Attenuation 62.0 db 30.5 db
Noise Margin 4.6db 16.0 db

That's "Very Good" according to http://www.coolwebhome.co.uk/calc/calculator.php

In reply to a post by Anonymous:

Might be worth a try when you are at home over the w/end, powerdown (switch it off)) the router last thing at night or around 8.00am the following morning and unplug the power brick and leave it off for a few hours. Connect the router directly into the test socket eventually plug the router's power brick back in and power up at around1.00pm to 2.00pm.
Don't plug in/connect the phone, take the router stats ASAP.

This shows you the TEST socket within a BT master socket.

Does the router get very hot to touch when in use?

Harry

I'll try that tonight and tomorrow morning. The router is not overheating: it's warm but not hot.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Oops. Nothing to do with Openreach

Virgin will get onto C&W who manage their off net broadband, who will chase BT Wholesale who control the DSLAM (as you appear to be non-LLU too)

Is there any chance you could explain the meaning of 'non-LLU'? Thanks!

In reply to a post by 4M2:

OP may have an Virgin ADSL MAX service though...are you on ADSL2?

I thought we were on ADSL2 but this morning the Virgin Tech Support assistant said it looked as though our exchange had not been upgraded. I just don't know whether this is the case or not since different engineers and operatives tell very different stories. Is there any way I can check this myself?

Edited by deleted (Fri 14-Sep-12 15:48:25)

http://www.robertos.me.uk/html/what_is_llu-.html

Which exchange is it please?

Try the samknows website .....

http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange_search

Worth a read if you've time with regard to line stats .....

http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/linestats.htm

Yes and hopefully the line won't melt over the coming years

Although I live in a rural area I will probably have to make the router sync lower than 4Meg later on in the year as that signal noise margin might not be enough to battle against the noisy darker nights and the dreaded Christmas lights especially as the outdoor ones have become so popular with some folk, there are quite a few holiday homes nearby

In reply to a post by MinnieMinno:

In reply to a post by 4M2:

OP may have an Virgin ADSL MAX service though...are you on ADSL2?

I thought we were on ADSL2 but this morning the Virgin Tech Support assistant said it looked as though our exchange had not been upgraded. I just don't know whether this is the case or not since different engineers and operatives tell very different stories. Is there any way I can check this myself?

I usually check from the router stats but maybe the N150 doesn�t display that info? However an upstream connection rate of 448Kbps suggests ADSL MAX...

In reply to a post by Apprentice:

Yes and hopefully the line won't melt over the coming years

Although I live in a rural area I will probably have to make the router sync lower than 4Meg later on in the year as that signal noise margin might not be enough to battle against the noisy darker nights and the dreaded Christmas lights especially as the outdoor ones have become so popular with some folk, there are quite a few holiday homes nearby

It�ll be alright

In reply to a post by 4M2:

In reply to a post by MinnieMinno:

In reply to a post by 4M2:

OP may have an Virgin ADSL MAX service though...are you on ADSL2?

I thought we were on ADSL2 but this morning the Virgin Tech Support assistant said it looked as though our exchange had not been upgraded. I just don't know whether this is the case or not since different engineers and operatives tell very different stories. Is there any way I can check this myself?

I usually check from the router stats but maybe the N150 doesn�t display that info? However an upstream connection rate of 448Kbps suggests ADSL MAX...

If your exchange becomes 21CN and your ISP is Plusnet then the downstream speed should automatically increase if all is well with the connection but you have to contact them to get an increase in the upstream speed from 448kbps.

Non-LLU

As in your connection appears from info we have seen to be a BT Wholesale based service, rather than LLU, where Cable and Wireless have their own hardware in the telephone exchange, and it is C&W who actually run the Virgin National service.

In reply to a post by Apprentice:

If your exchange becomes 21CN and your ISP is Plusnet then the downstream speed should automatically increase if all is well with the connection but you have to contact them to get an increase in the upstream speed from 448kbps.

Yes an upstream sync of 448Kbps is not always a very reliable indication that a connection is 20CN.

OP is using a MAC so I'm not sure how to check for DSL type using the CLI Terminal?

Edited by 4M2 (Fri 14-Sep-12 17:19:14)

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

http://www.robertos.me.uk/html/what_is_llu-.html

Which exchange is it please?

Exchange is DINAS MAWDDWY, between MACHYNLLETH and DOLGELLAU. The code is 01650 531xxx.

http://www.wikihow.com/Use-Telnet-on-Mac-OS-X

This info says that there are no LLU providers within the exchange and that it has not been upgraded to 21CN, and there is no Virgin cable service.

Therefore your ISP is providing you an ADSL Max (up to 8Megs) connection from the 20CN exchange using the BTW equipment within it.

A friend of mine is on a Market 1 exchange just like that one - best service that he's had has been with BT, although his attenuation is a lot less

Mine's very similar too,market 1, it serves a few less folk and now and again the VPs are red according to this but fortunately it gets sorted within a fortnight which isn't bad for such a small exchange which is very rural but not too far off a main road for BT

I don't expect to see the exchange upgraded to 21CN unless King Alex in waiting decides to fund "the roll out" with some extra cash.

As far as a 2Meg connection goes it's about as good as Dial-up was all those years ago, and anyone that suggests it's not that bad must still be on Dial-up

In reply to a post by MinnieMinno:

In reply to a post by Anonymous:

Might be worth a try when you are at home over the w/end, powerdown (switch it off)) the router last thing at night or around 8.00am the following morning and unplug the power brick and leave it off for a few hours. Connect the router directly into the test socket eventually plug the router's power brick back in and power up at around1.00pm to 2.00pm.
Don't plug in/connect the phone, take the router stats ASAP.


Harry - I followed your suggestion but as you can see, it has made very little difference to the stats. Here are the readings from first thing this morning, router plugged directly into TEST socket, no phone connected:



System Up Time 04:53:29
Port Status TxPkts RxPkts Collisions Tx B/s Rx B/s Up Time
WAN PPPoA 153840 197112 0 773 14634 04:52:45
LAN 10M/100M 196327 153156 0 14700 775 04:53:09
WLAN 54M/65M/150M 5126 3096 0 119 26 04:53:14

ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 1216 Kbps 448 Kbps
Line Attenuation 61.6 dB 31.5 dB
Noise Margin 12.5 dB 14.0 dB

You powered it up at 5:15 this morning? I'd only just gone to sleep!

That's a bad time anyway. Well inside daylight hours is best. The stats taken immediately after connection are also far more use than ones taken five hours later.

Connection Speed 1216 Kbps 448 Kbps
Line Attenuation 61.6 dB 31.5 dB
Noise Margin 12.5 dB 14.0 dB

The high noise margin is depressing the speed, you should get double the downstream at that attenuation. Is it around 12 immediately after connecting ?

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

You powered it up at 5:15 this morning? I'd only just gone to sleep!

That's a bad time anyway. Well inside daylight hours is best. The stats taken immediately after connection are also far more use than ones taken five hours later.

OP's router may have an event log which might have recorded sync time SNRM - if not a reboot during daylight and stats taken immediately afterwards would certainly be a good plan

Actually I would like to know whether or not a quiet line test indicates any issues?

Harry - I followed your suggestion but as you can see, it has made very little difference to the stats. Here are the readings from first thing this morning, router plugged directly into TEST socket, no phone connected

I don't mean to sound rude but the time you did this was too early in the morning and the line stats were nearly five hours old (System Up Time 04:53:29)

It would be very helpful to get the stats as soon as the router is powered up i.e. the system uptime would be less than a minute. If you could try it again but powering up the router around 1.00pm to 2.00pm as suggested it would maybe tell us more

As stated already the high downstream signal noise margin is something that needs to be reduced by finding out what is causing it to be set that high in the first place, on most stable connections the signal noise margin is set at 6db by BTW's exchange equipment.

Harry

One of the best modems for very long lines is the 2wire 2700-HGV which is the older BT business hub. They can be found on ebay for £10-£15 for a new one. Do not get a 2701 as there are very few reports on the long line performance.

The 2700 will sync and a fairly stable line at 6dB initially and then move to 3dB. They will also hold sync right down to 0dB SNR and even below.

It will be worth risking buying one to see if you can improve performance.

The move down to a 3dB target is of course only on a BT Wholesale WBC 21CN ADSL2+ based service. Just in case people think that its something the router does itself

In reply to a post by yarwell:

Connection Speed 1216 Kbps 448 Kbps
Line Attenuation 61.6 dB 31.5 dB
Noise Margin 12.5 dB 14.0 dB

The high noise margin is depressing the speed, you should get double the downstream at that attenuation. Is it around 12 immediately after connecting ?

Yes, Phil! That's immediately after connecting.

... get the stats as soon as the router is powered up i.e. the system uptime would be less than a minute. If you could try it again but powering up the router around 1.00pm to 2.00pm as suggested it would maybe tell us more

As stated already the high downstream signal noise margin is something that needs to be reduced by finding out what is causing it to be set that high in the first place, on most stable connections the signal noise margin is set at 6db by BTW's exchange equipment.

Harry


OK, Harry - I'll try again tomorrow at around 1 pm. And let's hope the noise margin is reset in the next few days to 6dB.

Edited by deleted (Sat 15-Sep-12 17:23:42)

As has already been pointed out, you need to ask the ISP to do it.

http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/dslrouter/t/4156817...

As has already been pointed out, Openreach don't do that.

& ISP has asked OR to do it

I doubt that. They will have asked C & W, who will ask BTW, hence the 5 day delay. Unless C & W have the facility that some ISPs seem to have to enter a request directly to the system.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

As has already been pointed out, you need to ask the ISP to do it.

In reply to a post by MinnieMinno:

I've spoken to Virgin's Technical Support.

You didn't mention in the post I replied to, quoted here, anything about the oddity of the reponse from VM support. Which has already been discussed at some length.

There is little she can do until the five days are up. Unfortunately.
_{Edit - typos.}

Edited by RobertoS (Sat 15-Sep-12 18:53:02)

OK, Harry - I'll try again tomorrow at around 1 pm. And let's hope the noise margin is reset in the next few days to 6dB.

Although it can be reset to 6db if there are any "noise" issues with the connection the signal noise margin will be increased as necessary by the exchange equipment.

Harry

Willing to bet you will see FTTC and or WBC in the next 3 years. Scotland has enough money in the fund to do a fair bit of upgrading, unless it gets spent on 200 different projects that all have their own large admin costs.

I'm on ADSL2 but at 62.0db attenuation there's little difference between ADSL Max and ADSL2

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

I doubt that.

Exactly my point!

In reply to a post by sjr:

I'm on ADSL2 but at 62.0db attenuation there's little difference between ADSL Max and ADSL2

IP Profiling might significant in terms of throughput though?

I suspect poster meant ADSL(1) not ADSL Max cuz if he is on a ADSL2 enabled line he can downgrade to ADSL(1) not ADSL Max.

Therefore there will be no IP Profiling if he is on LLU and if he isn't then IP Profiling will be applied on all ADSL Modes anyway.

EDIT: From his Profile poster is on Entanet, which is LLU I believe. So no IP Profiling and ADSL(1) is possible.

Edited by XRaySpeX (Sat 15-Sep-12 20:08:13)

I suspect the profile is way out of date. ADSL24 moved away from Entanet years ago. Entanet isn't LLU anyway.

I forget what sjr is on at the moment.

Edited by RobertoS (Sat 15-Sep-12 20:13:05)

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Entanet isn't LLU anyway.

I inferred LLU from SamKnows' "LLU operator presence" list.

Anyway it makes my observation no less valid

Edited by XRaySpeX (Sat 15-Sep-12 20:36:56)

Some of their business networks will be what gives them that status. They don't do retail LLU connections, and by "retail" I mean all the home and SOHO/business products that the Entanet resellers we know of offer.

[
[quote=4156820]
Might be worth a try when you are at home over the w/end, powerdown (switch it off)) the router last thing at night or around 8.00am the following morning and unplug the power brick and leave it off for a few hours. Connect the router directly into the test socket eventually plug the router's power brick back in and power up at around1.00pm to 2.00pm.
Don't plug in/connect the phone, take the router stats ASAP.


Here are the latest stats:



System Up Time 00:06:28
Port Status TxPkts RxPkts Collisions Tx B/s Rx B/s Up Time
WAN PPPoA 7109 7643 0 2549 22517 00:05:47
LAN 10M/100M 8040 7601 0 21915 2561 00:06:10
WLAN 54M/65M/150M 47 0 0 30 0 00:06:13

ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 1152 Kbps 448 Kbps
Line Attenuation 62.0 dB 31.5 dB
Noise Margin 13.4 dB 13.0 dB

Note that this reads 'Time up 06.28': I got the stats immediately on start-up but the copy I made of them failed to paste into this forum. However, the figures were the same - except the noise margin read 13.6dB.

Have you done anything about monitoring the SNR over 24-48 hours?

Although getting the SRNM reset to 6 will be a good start anyway.

Well the signal noise margin hasn't changed much with the router connected into the TEST socket so you'll have to wait for the reset to 6db and see if it remains at that figure the greater the uptime becomes.

IMHO if you don't use the wireless connection at all from the router then it's a good idea to switch it off altogether (WLAN 54M/65M/150M 47 0 0 30 0 00:06:13 )

Harry

In reply to a post by Apprentice:

Try the samknows website .....

http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange_search

Worth a read if you've time with regard to line stats .....

http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/linestats.htm

Alastair - Thanks for the links. I have had time to read them this afternoon and now the whole subject is just a wee bit less murky!

IMHO if you don't use the wireless connection at all from the router then it's a good idea to switch it off altogether (WLAN 54M/65M/150M 47 0 0 30 0 00:06:13 )

Harry



Yes, Harry, I would certainly turn off the wireless function but we have a wireless printer...

From everything that has been written, it seems that the main problem we have here is the length and poor quality of the line. The suggestions for modem routers that can best cope with this have been:

Netgear DG834v3
2Wire 2700HG-B
Thomson Speedtouch 585v6
or something from the Billion range.

Do you think it is worth ordering one of these or should we wait and see what happens when the NM is lowered to 6dB?

BTW, many thanks to all for the comments and suggestions.

In reply to a post by MinnieMinno:

From everything that has been written, it seems that the main problem we have here is the length and poor quality of the line. The suggestions for modem routers that can best cope with this have been:

Netgear DG834v3
2Wire 2700HG-B
Thomson Speedtouch 585v6
or something from the Billion range.

Do you think it is worth ordering one of these or should we wait and see what happens when the NM is lowered to 6dB?

Personally I would wait until if and when the downstream SNRM is lowered to 6dB and see how the N150 performs before considering investing in an alternative router.

Post deleted by Apprentice

Edited by Apprentice (Sun 16-Sep-12 17:24:34)

Wait and see .

should we wait and see what happens when the NM is lowered to 6dB?

Yes, definitely worth waiting.

Don't rush to get another router it is better to wait for the reset and monitor what happens after that.


Harry

if the SNR margin stays high during a 24 h cycle then you would probably benefit from getting the target reduced to a lower level like 9 or preferably 6. I lost track of which ISP and others may be able to help with suggestions of how to achieve that.

http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/dslrouter/t/4156731...

Our ISP is Virgin.

Hmm. How to get margin reset.............

Do virgin use C&W? I'm pretty sure the lowest they go is either 9db or 12db.

That's on their own equipment, but this is probably BT dslams. I think they may need to talk to BT Wholesale, but the ISP should be able to request a reset over an automated interface.

There's a similar Virgin ADSL MAX story here: http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php?topic=11118.0

Well, Virgin have promised to contact me once the NM is reset. If there is no change in the stats by Friday and I haven't heard from them, I'll badger them some more.

Meanwhile, just airing the topic here seems to have had some effect. The line has been a bit more stable over the weekend.

Good luck

The line has been a bit more stable over the weekend.

By stable do you mean the line normally drops out?

Getting the noise margin reset will make your speeds better but will be BAD for stability if it's already unstable.

From the OP

In reply to a post by MinnieMinno:

For the last few months, our service has been noticeably worse, with many short interruptions

Edited by deleted (Mon 17-Sep-12 11:49:15)

Hmmmm. Lets see what happens anyway

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Willing to bet you will see FTTC and or WBC in the next 3 years. Scotland has enough money in the fund to do a fair bit of upgrading, unless it gets spent on 200 different projects that all have their own large admin costs.

There's one coming up with large admin costs in the not too distant

UPDATE:

I received a message from Virgin Technical Support last week that BT were working on our case and would do what they could to improve the line. I was told that BT were going to switch OFF interleaving. I remembered that Harry advised that I should check that interleaving was switched ON, so I got back to VTS and told them that it might be a bad idea to turn interleaving off.

Nonetheless, they turned the interleaving OFF on Friday and our service deteriorated: the broadband connection became much worse and extremely choppy, so that it has been like having a dial-up service. It has improved slightly today, which is why I am able to post this report.

Naturally, I have been calling VTS regularly and asking them to turn interleaving on again, and reminding them about the noise margin.

Here are a current set of stats. Note that this afternoon, for the first time, there is a change in the noise margin!


System Up Time 58:09:14
Port Status TxPkts RxPkts Collisions Tx B/s Rx B/s Up Time
WAN PPPoA 91106 113562 0 979 12059 03:14:27
LAN 10M/100M 647600 540216 0 3873 253 58:08:56
WLAN 54M/65M 491873 306088 0 3017 152 58:08:59

ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 1824 Kbps 448 Kbps
Line Attenuation 62.1 dB 31.5 dB
Noise Margin 6.7 dB 13.0 dB

(Incidentally, the line is still very unstable: this is my 5th attempt to post this message!)

keeping interleaving on is probably a good idea.

Gained 600Kbps, which is a bit small for a drop of around 7dB from your old 13dB, but the weather may not be helping at the moment.

Hopefully it will stabilise and the extra speed might let you do a little more with the connection. If ADSL2+ (WBC in BT Wholesale speak) comes to the area, you might get another small boost of 300-400Kbps, not from ADSL2+ but the middle protocol of ADSL2.

Well, the line has definitely been more stable for the past two days, with the noise margin at around 7. But this morning, it has reverted to 12 dB, Very wet and stormy today, so I suppose it could be the weather?

System Up Time 148:37:32
Port Status TxPkts RxPkts Collisions Tx B/s Rx B/s Up Time
WAN PPPoA 613379 909902 0 496 14072 24:39:22
LAN 10M/100M 2022150 1585159 0 4918 262 148:37:14
WLAN 54M/65M 973788 636230 0 2256 137 148:37:17

ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 1344 Kbps 448 Kbps
Line Attenuation 61.5 dB 31.5 dB
Noise Margin 12.2 dB 13.0 dB

An electrical storm anywhere between you and the exchange, (on the cable route), could cause a re-sync.

I suggest a single re-sync now. Maybe turn the router off for a couple of minutes, as very occasionally the running firmware can get in a mess.