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Standard User ninjaef
(newbie) Mon 29-Jan-18 10:50:35
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Which Modem + separate router


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I am using Vodafone isp on 40mpbs line

When watching video over http i get choppy picture now and then and the odd freeze. I bought a Netgear D7000 which did help reduce unwanted artefacts but did not eradicate the issues completely, despite setting QoS etc

I really want an open wrt firmware compatible router and seperate modem.

Question is, if i but something super fast with lots of memory like the Linksys WRT32X , and connect this to a Dlink dsl-320b modem using gigabit LAN cable, would the performance of the 240mhz 320b modem affect the super fast linksys 32x such that it would negate the power of the 32x in terms of fast routing and serving up video to multiple clients on my lan?

Edited by ninjaef (Mon 29-Jan-18 10:52:49)

Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Mon 29-Jan-18 10:54:55
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Re: Which Modem + separate router


[re: ninjaef] [link to this post]
 
To handle a 40 Mbps FTTC line then nothing of great horsepower is needed for the modem

Dlink dsl-320b seems to be only an ADSL2+ modem so of no use on a 40 Mbps (presume FTTC) service.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User ninjaef
(newbie) Mon 29-Jan-18 10:57:01
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Re: Which Modem + separate router


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MrSaffron:
To handle a 40 Mbps FTTC line then nothing of great horsepower is needed for the modem

Dlink dsl-320b seems to be only an ADSL2+ modem so of no use on a 40 Mbps (presume FTTC) service.


Well spotted
Netgear DM200 then?


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Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Mon 29-Jan-18 11:11:39
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Re: Which Modem + separate router


[re: ninjaef] [link to this post]
 
Lantiq chipset so on the don't list.

TP Link W9970 in bridge mode or Zyxel VMG-1312-B10D in bridge are two I'd suggest, both Broadcom based.

Both are also basic routers, but the wireless is pretty useless, so best used in bridge mode.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User ninjaef
(newbie) Mon 29-Jan-18 11:27:30
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Re: Which Modem + separate router


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MrSaffron:
Lantiq chipset so on the don't list.

TP Link W9970 in bridge mode or Zyxel VMG-1312-B10D in bridge are two I'd suggest, both Broadcom based.

Both are also basic routers, but the wireless is pretty useless, so best used in bridge mode.


So then off dhcp, wifi, etc and run in bridge?
Standard User ukhardy07
(knowledge is power) Mon 29-Jan-18 12:04:51
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Re: Which Modem + separate router


[re: ninjaef] [link to this post]
 
For 40Mbps you do not need anything fantastic, there is no reason video should freeze on an ISP provided device.

Are you sure the device is faulty and it is not a poor connection being provided by Vodafone? For reference I use an ISP provided Sky Q Hub and used an ISP provided BT HomeHub, on both I had 2 4K video steams occurring at once via Netflix quite often.

Are you using WiFi, that could also be the issue. I don't care if you have a £300+ device, on 2.4Ghz it can still be poor performance, we see this all the time in corporate environments where APs are £1000+ each yet the 2.4Ghz performance is still bad.

My gut feeling is you are burning money when the issues not hardware.
EDIT: just looked at your links, all those devices are crazy high spec. You simply do not need this tech for 40Mbps.
Can you run a speedtest here at peak hours:
https://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest

Share with us the results URL, so we can view all the info do not just post up the results in plain text which you type.
e.g. mine https://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/15172278284...

Edited by ukhardy07 (Mon 29-Jan-18 12:11:13)

Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Mon 29-Jan-18 12:14:12
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Re: Which Modem + separate router


[re: ukhardy07] [link to this post]
 
On the spending agreed, both the modems I mentioned are happy with streaming YouTube 4K on my good line that when behaving has a 31 Mbps sync.

It may be the issue is poor connectivity at the ISP end with a CDN, i.e. letting a route on their internal or peering congest where the video is served from.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User ukhardy07
(knowledge is power) Mon 29-Jan-18 12:37:33
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Re: Which Modem + separate router


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
It may be the issue is poor connectivity at the ISP end with a CDN, i.e. letting a route on their internal or peering congest where the video is served from.
My exact sentiments smile I noticed over at a friends on Vodafone the Smart TV kept buffering on HD YouTube until it fell back, it was connected up with ethernet. Then again it's only £25 and for a while you got a free Sonos speaker as well!

In regards to the OP, it would have been cheaper to just get a slightly more expensive ISP which supplies 1. a decent router and 2. has a track record of limited congestion 3. invests in decent CDNs. Not saying VF doesn't do all of this, but given the past track record and repeat complaints it seems some of this is lacking.
Standard User ninjaef
(newbie) Mon 29-Jan-18 12:56:11
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Re: Which Modem + separate router


[re: ukhardy07] [link to this post]
 
It's not the ISP. Speedtest and BT wholesale tests perform fine.

BQM on here reports no packet loss and excellent ping

In getting packet loss on the LAN

Like i said, much improved when i upgraded the router but still the odd artefact. Three issue is not speed it is dropping of video frames in packet data. In need a fast router chip and 512mb ram on the router to avoid buffer issues.

In have the wrt32x but now need a modem only in bridge mode. I've decided on the dm200 , so will report back

Does anyone know what speed the LAN port is on the DM200? Is it gigabit? Where does it confirm this? Can't see it in netgear site?

Edited by ninjaef (Mon 29-Jan-18 13:01:05)

Standard User ukhardy07
(knowledge is power) Mon 29-Jan-18 13:05:52
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Re: Which Modem + separate router


[re: ninjaef] [link to this post]
 
It's not the ISP. Speedtest and BT wholesale tests perform fine.
This tells us nothing. BT Wholesale speedtester is multi threaded so will generally hide any congestion, the test here can show congestion.

Also worth noting, the VF users with C&W LLU are generally getting ok performance, you seem to be able to use the BT Wholesale speedtester which indicates you are on the TT/BTwholesale mix which is usually where VFs congestion lies.

CDNs are what delivers most streams, they require ISP investment. Read here:
https://media.netflix.com/en/company-blog/how-netfli...

ISPs need to install their own data centres and then provide connectivity to these local OCAs ensuring the links do not get congested. Smaller ISPs which are also cheap are very bad at this.

Your streaming experience is dependant on your ISPs ability to setup and maintain CDNs not your general speedtests. You can have great speedtests but if your ISP has not invested in these CDNs, steaming will be poor compared to another provider.

You kind of get what you pay for, when you compare bottom of the market priced ISP (VF, Post Office Broadband etc) at £22.50 a month for fibre with other players e.g. BT/Sky the CDNs, peering, etc are just apples and oranges.

BQM on here reports no packet loss and excellent ping
Somewhat irrelevant of CDNs.

Like i said, much improved when i upgraded the router but still the odd artefact. Three issue is not speed it is dropping of video frames in packet data. In need a fast router chip and 512mb ram on the router to avoid buffer issues.
This simply is not true, do you think every ISP device supplied to customers in this country has 512mb ram? Bear in mind most users of Netflix, Amazon Instant Video, YouTube etc are using ISP supplied routers and a large chunk of the population now has 4K TV sets which will be pulling 4K over these ISP routers.

As an example, the best ISP supplied router BT SmartHub 6 has 256mb ram. I had over 20 devices connected into that and did multiple 4K streams.

Fact, ISP supplied devices are capable of multiple video steams, without the specs of the devices you are buying.

The Netgear D7000 can handle video streams on a 40Mbps line without an issue. It is way overpowered for the job, buying an even better router is a total waste of money. Check if you can return the new router, it is not cheap. A £50 router can do what you want if you want frank reality.

Edited by ukhardy07 (Mon 29-Jan-18 14:01:22)

Standard User ninjaef
(newbie) Mon 29-Jan-18 14:08:34
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Re: Which Modem + separate router


[re: ukhardy07] [link to this post]
 
The vmg1312-b10d has only 100mps lan ports

The vmg3925-b10b has 1000mpbs lan ports

Will the 3925 work with Vodafone vdsl2 which has vlan tagging 101?
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Mon 29-Jan-18 14:12:46
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Re: Which Modem + separate router


[re: ninjaef] [link to this post]
 
If your sync is 40 Mbps then 100 Mbps LAN port is not a limit at all compared to 1000 Mbps.

The 1312 does VLAN tagging, not used a 3925 and not checked chipsets either.

Remind me to sell you some stuff in a PC store one day, I'm sure a £1000 graphics card will help.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User ninjaef
(newbie) Mon 29-Jan-18 14:17:40
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Re: Which Modem + separate router


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
If members could just answer the questions factually, that would really help, that is all i need. Thank you
Standard User broadband66
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 29-Jan-18 14:56:34
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Re: Which Modem + separate router


[re: ninjaef] [link to this post]
 
ADSL connecting at 14mbps and can stream 1080p over WIFI with no issues using a BT3 hub as an additional AP.

Haven't got a 4K TV, so can't test, but not a great deal of true 4K content available anyway.

Was Eclipse Home Option 1, VM 2Mb & O2 Standard
Now Utility Warehouse (up to 16mbps) via Talk Talk
Standard User ukhardy07
(knowledge is power) Mon 29-Jan-18 16:30:45
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Re: Which Modem + separate router


[re: ninjaef] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by ninjaef:
If members could just answer the questions factually, that would really help, that is all i need. Thank you
We are answering your questions factually. As one person has said their HomeHub 3 can handle full HD streaming, this has 64gb ram. Why you are taking no advice, bolstering ahead burning money, and acting like everyone's wrong is literally baffling me. If you are so sure you are right, (which indeed you are not, you do not need 512mb ram on a router to play online video), I am unsure why even post.

I restate, you do not need to spend this amount of money nor did the Netgear need replacing. It was already one of the best routers on the market and can handle 32+ devices wireless and 64 wired. Fact.

Factually speaking, you are spending hundreds of pounds and I see little evidence that this would indeed be the purpose of your issues.

To put things into perspective, in a university dorm which had 9 rooms we installed 1 Aruba 105 per corridor, which has 128mb ram.

We typically saw 36 devices per dorm connected in, ie 4 per room. Average usage per person was quoted at over 100gb per user when we did the install, this was on some older wireless G APs which we changed out 3 years ago. I know the current APs are still used today, but worth noting the G points supported 100GB usage per user (or room) ie 900Gb usage per month, in each dorm. So 1 AP on wireless G almost pulled 1TB a month. Remember students don't have TVs or want to pay for tv license, they stream everything.

For a lecture theatre seating 400 people we had 3 Aruba 105s.

For these APs they only got restarts for vendor security updates and often remained online 3+ solid months.

The London Underground subway at each tube stop is a Cisco 3600, with 256Mb ram. A jubillee line transports over 900 passengers, plenty of stations have 1 AP per platform. The network profile now automatically connects o2, virginmedia, vodafone, ee and 3 customers (it comes with your settings from the network to connect to the masts, no self setup required). Anyone with one of these networks is going into that AP. We still often see 80Mbps+ on a speedtest. Typically they take on multiple 100s of passengers as trains come in and out. At peak load users take longer to authenticate in, that is all.

You are way out with the declaration 512mb+ is required. It's basically like saying you need a double decker bus to transport one person to the corner shop.

Edited by ukhardy07 (Mon 29-Jan-18 17:04:36)

Standard User adrenalize_
(newbie) Mon 29-Jan-18 18:29:27
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Re: Which Modem + separate router


[re: ninjaef] [link to this post]
 
I have used a Netgear D7000 router for a long while. It is one of the more stable integrated modem/routers I have used/tested and was rock solid on sync.

It easily coped with 80Mb/s internet and 4K streaming, and WiFi was good overall - I wouldn't spend any more money on kit.

My broadband however is delivered by Vodafone (BTw) resold by Origin and there has been a steady increase in congestion over the last 10 months and woudl be my punt as the key culprit.
Standard User Michael_Chare
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 29-Jan-18 19:48:30
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Re: Which Modem + separate router


[re: ninjaef] [link to this post]
 
Is your video via wifi or a wired connection?

I use a Zyxel VMG8924-B10A bought 2nd hand on ebay. for my Vodafone 38Mbps service.

The router connects at 40Mbps downstream. In general I can stream HD video to a wired device.

Michael Chare
Standard User jdigz7
(regular) Mon 29-Jan-18 20:49:20
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Re: Which Modem + separate router


[re: ninjaef] [link to this post]
 
I use a DM200 in its router mode.

100Mbit port.

it's solid for me can't go faster than 80 anyway on VDSL for me.


I also own a Zyxel VMG8924 which can run in bridge mode 1gbit ports.


Both run solid no complaints.
Standard User ninjaef
(newbie) Mon 05-Feb-18 08:47:04
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Re: Which Modem + separate router


[re: ukhardy07] [link to this post]
 
Just like to confirm , to members who provided some good tips and info, insight and advice, that regrettably I have to inform you that the change of router/modem has fully corrected the problem. So it appears that none of the CDN, "overpowerd router", "waste of money", /etcetc "stuff" was the root cause or valid assertions. They cant be, by vitue of the fact that the problem has now been fixed through a modem/router upgrade.

I now have installed an EchoLife HG612 Rev 3 VDSL modem, in concert with a linksys WRT3200ACM router. Perfect and flawless. My major observation is on the Router, and the increase in CPU speed from 400MHZ dual core to 1.8GHZ dual core , plus increase from 128MB DDR2 to 512MB DDR3, and significant reduction in buffering and lost packets in router stats. This, is i belive was the improvement needed.

Sorry guys, but that is how it is. So in future, perhaps recommending or at least suggesting analysis of modem/router combo, is ONE of a set of valid response you may care to provide, to these sorts of problems logged on the forum

Edited by ninjaef (Mon 05-Feb-18 13:26:53)

Standard User broadband66
(fountain of knowledge) Tue 06-Feb-18 18:39:45
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Re: Which Modem + separate router


[re: ninjaef] [link to this post]
 
It may not have been your new expensive device that has cured your issue. Maybe a cheap one would have cured it anyway. Who can say, did you try a cheaper alternative?

Was Eclipse Home Option 1, VM 2Mb & O2 Standard
Now Utility Warehouse (up to 16mbps) via Talk Talk
Standard User ninjaef
(learned) Tue 06-Feb-18 19:51:01
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Re: Which Modem + separate router


[re: broadband66] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by broadband66:
It may not have been your new expensive device that has cured your issue. Maybe a cheap one would have cured it anyway. Who can say, did you try a cheaper alternative?


Nope, but i did put the ISP back inline and experienced issues later. I then swapped it out again for me CPE and voila, all ok again. Repeated THREE TIMES. sorry mate, you'll just have to accept reality 😁
Standard User ukhardy07
(knowledge is power) Tue 06-Feb-18 21:54:09
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Re: Which Modem + separate router


[re: ninjaef] [link to this post]
 
My friend still has a netgear DG834G and streams Netflix without buffering. That has 16Mb ram. This whole discussion is laughable, not from the perspective of change of device will not help, but your bold statements as to 512Mb ram and a crazy CPU is required to stream video.

Most likely given your outcome, the Netgear was faulty all along.

I haven't approx 4000 posts here, and similar over on other boards, along with a history rolling out networking equipment followed by a career in secure network implementations, and nowadays cyber security. I fully understand what specs a basic stream requires.

My client for over 3 years is a major player in the provision of 3G/4G networking devices to mobile operators and I performed the load testing to ensure the backend networking equipment, servers etc were able to handle the calls and data throughout the UK along for major networks along with a bunch of other tests. I also did capacity planning and fall-overs testing for ATMs. I understand the technologies and requirements, hence irrespective of your outcome, we either 1) Missed something (likely) or 2) Something was faulty.

I would not be surprised if this did not entirely resolve your issues. Best of luck anyways.

Edited by ukhardy07 (Tue 06-Feb-18 22:12:25)

Standard User Michael_Chare
(fountain of knowledge) Tue 06-Feb-18 23:07:49
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Re: Which Modem + separate router


[re: ninjaef] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by ninjaef:
In reply to a post by broadband66:
It may not have been your new expensive device that has cured your issue. Maybe a cheap one would have cured it anyway. Who can say, did you try a cheaper alternative?

Nope, but i did put the ISP back inline and experienced issues later. I then swapped it out again for me CPE and voila, all ok again. Repeated THREE TIMES. sorry mate, you'll just have to accept reality 😁
The current Vodafone router is well known to be a poor quality product. It just surprises me that Vodafone continue to supply it.

Michael Chare
Standard User ninjaef
(learned) Wed 07-Feb-18 08:35:07
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Re: Which Modem + separate router


[re: ukhardy07] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by ukhardy07:
My friend still has a netgear DG834G and streams Netflix without buffering. That has 16Mb ram. This whole discussion is laughable, not from the perspective of change of device will not help, but your bold statements as to 512Mb ram and a crazy CPU is required to stream video.

Most likely given your outcome, the Netgear was faulty all along.

I haven't approx 4000 posts here, and similar over on other boards, along with a history rolling out networking equipment followed by a career in secure network implementations, and nowadays cyber security. I fully understand what specs a basic stream requires.

My client for over 3 years is a major player in the provision of 3G/4G networking devices to mobile operators and I performed the load testing to ensure the backend networking equipment, servers etc were able to handle the calls and data throughout the UK along for major networks along with a bunch of other tests. I also did capacity planning and fall-overs testing for ATMs. I understand the technologies and requirements, hence irrespective of your outcome, we either 1) Missed something (likely) or 2) Something was faulty.

I would not be surprised if this did not entirely resolve your issues. Best of luck anyways.


Darn, I was just about to remove this thread from my favourites, until I read the post above, ...

Sadly, I am not impressed by a post count ; these are simple enoiugh to accumulate without providing any relevant comment , and that goes on any board.

Similarly, I am regrettably even less impressed with your role; I am head of Information Management & Technology and run several Transformation programmes for a blue chip company listed on the FTSE100 and employing 000's of staff across the United Kingdom, collaborating with the likes of Cisco, Microsoft, IBM, Google, CSC, DXC, and alike. I have a team of around 300 skilled engineers, far mote technical than myself, of which one who is "low down in the food chain" and nowhere near as eminent as yourself, correctly diagnosed the issue whereas you did not.

As commented above, the Vodafone router is poor. But I also tried a TVG912 and a HH3, both with similar poor results.

So it is with sadness and deep regret that the fact remains, that your perception, superior knowledge, and techincal prowess, counts for nothing on this particular problem because the improved router FULLY resolved the problems - all of them.

Anyway, this thread has been resolved and I made the point. I shall now remove it from my favourites.

Thank you for your kind input

Edited by ninjaef (Wed 07-Feb-18 08:36:40)

Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Wed 07-Feb-18 11:22:55
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Re: Which Modem + separate router


[re: ninjaef] [link to this post]
 
If the router was the only thing that had changed people might be more accepting, but my understanding is that the Vodafone router was replaced with a HG612 + the new router.

So it is entirely possible that the improved behaviour is down to the HG612 handling the VDSL2 better and thus less retransmits and dropped packets result, meaning that video stream packets arrive in a timely and orderly fashion for rendering.

I'll keep on streaming 4K over YouTube happily with my £30 TP-Link W9970 for now though or bargain £12 Zyxel router.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User ninjaef
(learned) Wed 07-Feb-18 12:28:03
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Re: Which Modem + separate router


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MrSaffron:
If the router was the only thing that had changed people might be more accepting, but my understanding is that the Vodafone router was replaced with a HG612 + the new router.

So it is entirely possible that the improved behaviour is down to the HG612 handling the VDSL2 better and thus less retransmits and dropped packets result, meaning that video stream packets arrive in a timely and orderly fashion for rendering.

I'll keep on streaming 4K over YouTube happily with my £30 TP-Link W9970 for now though or bargain £12 Zyxel router.


Possibly. I didnt check the stats prior to the introduction of the HG modem. I did run a BQM on the WAN using this site, which revealed no packet loss or latency. So the issue was on the LAN side and quite possibly the integrated modem. So fair point.
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Wed 07-Feb-18 13:00:20
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Re: Which Modem + separate router


[re: ninjaef] [link to this post]
 
I'm glad I don't work for such a hyper-supercilious person as yourself. There are polite ways of disagreeing with people, especially ones who do know what they are talking about.

Everything that has been suggested in all your threads by everyone has been valid and relevant, but not all responders will have looked at all the threads. It seems to me there is something else going on at your end necessitating this higher-capability router. Possibly a large amount of internal LAN/WLAN traffic nothing to do with the internet.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. 200GB. Sync 75808/13984Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6

Edited by RobertoS (Wed 07-Feb-18 13:08:10)

Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Wed 07-Feb-18 13:12:16
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Re: Which Modem + separate router


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
One thought I had was that maybe the new router has some form of prioritisation (QoS) for video traffic by default, and thus regular polling or upload activity e.g. mobile phone uploading photo stream to cloud has less of an impact, even just using a web browser on some connections can create buffering.

On the LAN traffic, if there are Google Chromecasts there is a known problem with them flooding and causing issues for routers, last recall was firmware updates by some router providers to mitigate this, but ultimate solution is Google updating their own firmware to avoid this flooding scenario.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User broadband66
(fountain of knowledge) Wed 07-Feb-18 17:48:55
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Re: Which Modem + separate router


[re: ninjaef] [link to this post]
 
As I mentioned in an earlier post, my HH3 streams to a Fire Stick in HD with no issues on an ADSL line.

Can I sell you an overpriced car as you seem to like spending unnecessarily.

Just because your solution worked doesn't make it the best solution. Be polite, say thanks to all the contributors and leave it at that. No need to have a go just because you didn't like the suggestions.

Was Eclipse Home Option 1, VM 2Mb & O2 Standard
Now Utility Warehouse (up to 16mbps) via Talk Talk
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