Why fibre only to cabinets?

Looks like many people whose premises are not connected to a cabinet, won't get any fibre anytime soon (me being one of them).

I wonder what's the difference between going with fibre to a cabinet, as opposed to a block in the case the block is not connected to any cabinet.
How many customers, in average, are served by a single cabinet?
If a block has 150 potential customers, why BT wouldn't bring fibre to the block, and then use the existing copper cables to every flat? That looks even easier than going through a cabinet, but BT won't do it.
Any logical explanation?

BT are currently trialling FTTB (fibre to the building).

The reasons are because typically a cab will have 200+ Openreach PSTN connections so there's likely to be a bigger uptake of FTTC as opposed to 1 block of flats.

The fact that the owner of the building would also have to permit Openreach equipment to be stored and locked there safely is probably another issue.

Cabinets come in sizes of 96 to 288 connections I believe.

There are three adjacent blocks of flats close to here which have been totally refurbished on in the case of one block converted from offices.

They are all Direct Exchange Lines - a couple of 200 pair cables run from exchange to a switch/comms room and from there up to each flat. The duct back to the exchange already has fibre and space for more.

However, BT approached the owners/landlords and were refused permission to install a DSLAM in the comms room!

Very backwards attitude. They could charge more rent for locations with fibre to the basement.

Perhaps they got a moment of delight and importance from sticking their fingers up at BT. Either that or they foolishly decided they couldn't be bothered with the (fairly short-lived) hassle/disruption.

Or they already have their own high speed bb by a dedicated line? If not, it seems like a pants-on-head stupid decision (maybe an incumbent provider pays them for subscribers).

In reply to a post by MHC:

However, BT approached the owners/landlords and were refused permission to install a DSLAM in the comms room!

Maybe the owners didn't want the hassle of being "tech support", or thought (mistakenly) they'd get this hassle.

I'm in a block of flats, but a small one (two sets of 6, only two stories high), so why isn't BT offering similar to us? :-/

Don't know the full story but it is possible to crawl through the ducts from exchange to comms room!

When the conversion from offices to flats (actually 2 blocks) there was a need to more lines to serve all properties and it had to be copper to te frames.

Hyperoptic offers an FTTP service - that's fibre all the way to the property. They installed in my building (133 flats) three months ago - the speeds we're getting are astonishing!

They offer a 20 meg, 100 meg or 1 gig service. I opted for the 100 meg - the speed test results are below:

Download Speed: 100084 kbps (12510.5 KB/sec transfer rate)
Upload Speed: 89435 kbps (11179.4 KB/sec transfer rate)
Latency: 5 ms
Mon Feb 20 2012 14:30:38 GMT+0000 (GMT Standard Time)

Get it if you can - it's fantastic!

How much bandwidth do you use each month?

There's no cap through Hyperoptic. Lucky really as since signing up I've discovered the joys of on-demand film and TV (in HD of course!)

In reply to a post by MHC:

Don't know the full story but it is possible to crawl through the ducts from exchange to comms room!

Not really ducting, more of a cable tunnel. I wonder how it is sealed (against ingress of gasses, water and vermin) at each end?

For Fibre none of that is really a problem. It is only a problemfor copper

In reply to a post by JonnyH47:

There's no cap through Hyperoptic. Lucky really as since signing up I've discovered the joys of on-demand film and TV (in HD of course!)

Still a very niche operator but will likely increase its footprint where its able too, alot of problems with enabling tower blocks minly the permission from the owner.

Luckily our managing agents (Stonedale, part of the Peverel Group) and our freeholder had the foresight to see an upgrade of this type benefits everyone. I have heard that Stonedale has received such good feedback that it is recommending installation in other buildings it manages.

In reply to a post by Bob_s2:

For Fibre none of that is really a problem. It is only a problemfor copper

So are you saying that fibre connections are not affected by water ingress, vermin and suchlike ?

1Gbps .... drooool..

What are the prices for the services by the way.

£50 a month for a gig. setup typically £40 but will vary

The tubing is the main protection from rodents, but yes they could destroy fibre in the same way as with copper.

Ducts themselves are not sealed to the elements, i.e. can flood. Waterpoot enclosures etc keep copper joints clean, and similar for fibre.

http://www.farina1.com/fibre/wgc_media/source/IMG_44... FTTP in a pavement chamber in Milton Keynes

I'm paying £37.50 for Hyperoptic's 100 meg service with phone line. The 1 gig service is another £25. Here's a link to Hyperoptic's site:

www.hyperoptic.com

I'd recommend 100%. Results from a speed test are below:

Download Speed: 96093 kbps (12011.6 KB/sec transfer rate)
Upload Speed: 89654 kbps (11206.8 KB/sec transfer rate)
Latency: 6 ms
Tue Feb 21 2012 16:36:46 GMT+0000 (GMT Standard Time)

wana link speed.net result?

http://speedtest.net/

Post deleted by JonnyH47

In reply to a post by Bob_s2:

For Fibre none of that is really a problem. It is only a problemfor copper

Pardon? Did you really intend to reply to me with those two sentences?

I fail to see the relevance of your comment to my posting.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Ducts themselves are not sealed to the elements, i.e. can flood.

Hmm, I think you are misunderstanding me. All ducts are sealed at the point where they enter a building.

Also, take a look at the ducting from a footway jointing box to a FTTC. You will find that the duct(s) that carry the fibre feed and the tie cables are filled / sealed with some form of epoxy resin. Hence if only two 100 pair tie cables are installed, that is the cabinet's limit -- unless further extensive civil engineering work takes place at a later date.

if they're sealed then it'll be a minor job to break open that seal at both ends , run through some more cable / fibre and re-seal. I'd be amazed if the entire duct was filled with resin - might as well just have buries the cables directly if that was the case!

Maybe at the point of entry to a building, but not for any distance, i.e. the ducting in the street is just a concrete box or plastic pipe that is hollow apart from any copper or fibre in it.

If the 2 mile of duct between an exchange and property were filled with resin then FTTC roll-outs would be so expensive they would never happen.

My comment is fact and not speculation.

Come on Andrew, look at what I posted in response to MHC's (throw-away) comment!

I have never mentioned anything about distance -- you are the first one to use that word.

Maybe at the point of entry to a building,

There is no "maybe" about it. It is a fact. The rest of your posting is irrelevant and is rather like the reaction I would expect from a certain TBB troll.

I know you are aware of the saying with regards to grandmothers and the sucking of eggs. You should also be aware of the saying with regards to holes, being in one and the stupidity of continuing to dig!

Facts:

(1) All ducts -- at the point of entry to a building -- are sealed. The sealing is not irreversible and is to prevent the ingress of gases, water, vermin & any other undesirable entities.

(2) All cable tunnels -- at the point of entry to a building -- are sealed. The sealing is not irreversible and is to prevent the ingress of gases, water, vermin & any other undesirable entities.

(3) The duct(s) between a FTTC and its footway joint box, which carry the tie-cables and fibre feed, are filled with something like epoxy resin (not foam filler). Once again, it is to prevent the ingress of gasses, water, vermin, etc, into the FTTC cabinet -- a cabinet that contains expensive, mains powered, electronic equipment. That filling appears to be irreversible without further civil engineering works.

Edited by burakkucat (Wed 22-Feb-12 14:12:07)

Can you try it on the two versions of the TBB Speed Test and provide a link to the results.

Here's the TBB speed test.



Hyperoptic's speed test a couple of minutes later shows:

Download Speed: 91053 kbps (11381.6 KB/sec transfer rate)
Upload Speed: 89856 kbps (11232 KB/sec transfer rate)
Latency: 5 ms
Wed Feb 22 2012 15:58:52 GMT+0000 (GMT Standard Time)

Not sure why there's a difference? Also can't see a second TBB speed test. How do I find it?

In reply to a post by burakkucat:

(3) The duct(s) between a FTTC and its footway joint box, which carry the tie-cables and fibre feed, are filled with something like epoxy resin (not foam filler). Once again, it is to prevent the ingress of gasses, water, vermin, etc, into the FTTC cabinet -- a cabinet that contains expensive, mains powered, electronic equipment. That filling appears to be irreversible without further civil engineering works.

I'm working on hearsay here, but I thought that the FTTC cabinets were installed, initially, with only the minimum in the way of tie cables. Once the cable was fully utilised, installations halted until a new tie cable could be installed.

Of course, it could be that the cables are fully present; they are just not wired in completely.

Flash based ... http://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/broadband.html but you may need to cut and paste the figures.

For Hyperoptic's you go straight to their equipment, but to get the TBB test you go through Hyperoptic, to a peering point, from there across the Internet (maybe 1 or 2 hops or maybe a lot more) and then to TBBs test. That can cause some slowdown. As for the upstream, what do Hyperoptic offer "off network"? It might be 100Mbps within their networks but a limited figure when going elsewhere.

Seb or MrS may be able to shed some more light.

Java http://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest.html
Flash http://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/broadband.html

Hyperoptic is probably hosted on their network, i.e. using our test goes across a chunk of the internet

Have found the second test.

I downloaded the 1 gig file in 99 seconds. If my maths is correct (I'm not very technical so it may not be!):

(1024 x 8) / 99 = 82.75 Mbps

I have seen Hyperoptic users testing at over 200 Mbps, both upstream and downstream onto our network and elsewhere

In reply to a post by MHC:

Flash based ... http://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/broadband.html but you may need to cut and paste the figures.

For Hyperoptic's you go straight to their equipment, but to get the TBB test you go through Hyperoptic, to a peering point, from there across the Internet (maybe 1 or 2 hops or maybe a lot more) and then to TBBs test. That can cause some slowdown. As for the upstream, what do Hyperoptic offer "off network"? It might be 100Mbps within their networks but a limited figure when going elsewhere.

Seb or MrS may be able to shed some more light.

Flash-based gives:

Download -- 86 Mbps
Upload -- 87 Mbps

Now I really am confused!

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

I have seen Hyperoptic users testing at over 200 Mbps, both upstream and downstream onto our network and elsewhere

Should have said I'm paying for the 100 meg service, not 1 gig, so wouldn't expect any more than I'm getting.

If you have a spare moment, I'd love a tracert to:

qw.foppa.dk

And if you have a second spare moment, to:

mattlantis.net

Otherwise, very very nice service you've got there.

In reply to a post by driz:

If you have a spare moment, I'd love a tracert to:

qw.foppa.dk

And if you have a second spare moment, to:

mattlantis.net

Otherwise, very very nice service you've got there.

Sorry, I'm not very technical. Tell me how and I'll have a go!

No worries - you need to open a command window - start, run, cmd - or type cmd in the windows 7 search/run box thingy (when you just open the start menu).

then type

tracert qw.foppa.dk at the command line

it will produce output a bit like this:

Tracing route to qw.foppa.dk [89.104.194.146]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms billion.router [192.168.1.254]
2 1ms .... etc. etc.
but with many more lines.

After it's complete, you can right click on the command window and select 'mark' to select its output, and then paste it here!

It may simply reflect the limitations of Flash versus Java, i.e. for the testers to do the upload they have to generate the data for upload, and I believe we use random data, which can take some CPU time.

But for there to be a 35 to 85 variation in upload? Some I can understand but that is high.

any sources to support that fact?

In reply to a post by ionic:

any sources to support that fact?

Wouldn't it be nice if I were to provide a link to a BT Group / Openreach specification document . . . unfortunately that is not possible.

Now I shall invert your question and send it back to you. Any sources to deny that fact? (E.g. photographs that you have taken of the duct mouths from within the FTTC cabinet at install / commission time / etc.)

Edited by burakkucat (Thu 23-Feb-12 16:56:47)

He is being pedantic.

The compound is firestopping and can be easily drilled out. You will notice that Zarjaz didn't even bother to reply to this and he must know exactly what goes in. Why argue when someone knows what he knows even when he doesn't!

Ducts, holes, tunnels all have this done regularly it is merely to protect the end site and is not permanant in any way.

I recently received a brochure through the post from hyperoptic and from all accounts my building is up for it however there are some who want to consider Openreach. From my limited research, I understand they use different technologies GPON vs Point to Point. Does anyone have a view which is better?

All help will be appreciated.

G

We either use a pressurised bag at end user premises (grey - never used myself) - a rubber / foam bung at residential premise / base of pole when outside, and at cabinet a resin which is injected into only 3-5 inches of the duct (stuff a rag or blue roll to block duct first) - to stop gas / water etc - it is easily punctured with a screwdriver and then pulled out by hand. No civils required - and you can fit many hundred pair cables into the size of duct fitted to cabs (which usually have one entry per 100 eu's anyway). The ducts are otherwise unblocked (aside from exchange) unless there is a complaint / high risk of flooding from water running down ducts from the network into a lower property. But again - its always a 5min job to unblock, then 5 min re-seal after new cable works. Believe it or not we know what we are doing
-OE

In reply to a post by G4M3B0Y85:

I recently received a brochure through the post from hyperoptic and from all accounts my building is up for it however there are some who want to consider Openreach. From my limited research, I understand they use different technologies GPON vs Point to Point. Does anyone have a view which is better?

All help will be appreciated.

G

The first bit of advice would be to put this in a topic all of its own - it really doesn't belong here - particularly as the conversation here has long gone off topic.

In reply to a post by driz:

If you have a spare moment, I'd love a tracert to:

qw.foppa.dk

And if you have a second spare moment, to:

mattlantis.net

Otherwise, very very nice service you've got there.

Sorry, have been a bit busy. Here are the results:

Tracing route to qw.foppa.dk [89.104.194.146]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms hyperhub.hyperlan [192.168.1.1]
2 3 ms 7 ms 3 ms 141.0.146.4.bcube.co.uk [141.0.146.4]
3 2 ms 2 ms 2 ms 172.16.16.13
4 3 ms 2 ms 2 ms 172.16.16.9
5 2 ms 1 ms 2 ms 94.31.34.41
6 3 ms 2 ms 2 ms xe-1-3-0.mpr1.lhr1.uk.above.net [64.125.28.201]
7 2 ms 2 ms 2 ms xe-7-1-0-0.ldn4nqp1.uk.ip.tdc.net [195.66.224.64]
8 17 ms 58 ms 17 ms ae-1.boanqp7.dk.ip.tdc.net [83.88.23.199]
9 17 ms 17 ms 17 ms cpe.ge-1-1-0-257.boanxj1.customer.tele.dk [62.243.244.238]
10 17 ms 17 ms 17 ms klyden.foppa.dk [89.104.194.146]
Trace complete.


Tracing route to mattlantis.net [109.74.195.224]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms hyperhub.hyperlan [192.168.1.1]
2 3 ms 3 ms 4 ms 141.0.146.4.bcube.co.uk [141.0.146.4]
3 2 ms 2 ms 2 ms 172.16.16.13
4 2 ms 2 ms 2 ms 172.16.16.9
5 2 ms * 2 ms linx.telecityredbus.net [195.66.224.82]
6 * 2 ms * 217.20.44.193
7 3 ms 2 ms 2 ms te4-1-dist65-01.lon10.telecity.net [217.20.44.218]
8 3 ms 2 ms 2 ms 212.111.33.234
9 3 ms 2 ms 3 ms mattlantis.net [109.74.195.224]
Trace complete.

Why are there 3 readings given for each hop?

Good thinking. Cheers for the advice.

Thank you very much for this - nice to see the first hop is around 2ms! The few BT FTTH traceroutes I've seen have the first hop at around 4-6ms, which is a bit [censored] for fibre really. But very very nice stuff there - 17ms to Denmark is phenomenal.

There's 3 readings to give you an idea of average I suppose, since latency can vary a bit from moment to moment.

FWIW, here are my Be traceroutes - fastpath in SW London. These are very good for ADSL.

Tracing route to mattlantis.net [109.74.195.224]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms the.internet [192.168.254.1]
2 8 ms 7 ms 6 ms 87-194-48-1.bethere.co.uk [87.194.48.1]
3 * * 6 ms 10.1.2.218
4 6 ms * 6 ms linx1.telecityredbus.net [195.66.226.82]
5 36 ms * * 85.90.226.205
6 62 ms 64 ms 64 ms te4-1-dist65-01.lon10.telecity.net [217.20.44.218]
7 8 ms 6 ms 6 ms 212.111.33.234
8 6 ms 6 ms 6 ms mattlantis.net [109.74.195.224]

Tracing route to qw.foppa.dk [89.104.194.146]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms the.internet [192.168.254.1]
2 7 ms 6 ms 5 ms 87-194-48-1.bethere.co.uk [87.194.48.1]
3 * * * Request timed out.
4 5 ms 5 ms 5 ms 208.178.245.81
5 33 ms 35 ms 33 ms NIANET-A-S.TenGigabitEthernet2-3.ar3.CPH1.gblx.net [64.214.146.182]
6 23 ms 23 ms 22 ms ge5-2-taar.ip.comendo.com [93.176.69.54]
7 22 ms 23 ms 22 ms ge5-2-taar.ip.comendo.com [93.176.69.54]
8 22 ms 23 ms 22 ms crb11.hosting.comendo.com [89.104.192.66]
9 24 ms 22 ms 22 ms klyden.foppa.dk [89.104.194.146]

Thanks - a very interesting comparison!