BT OpenReach FTTC Modem

I have the ECI version so without physically altering the box I can't get my stats. All I want is the line sync speed for up and down. As this is reported to the ISP router (in my case sky) is there away that I could detect the sync speed??

If you get your IP profile from the BT speed tester (diagnostic version), your downstream sync speed can be obtained by multiplying the IP profile by 1.033 and the upstream sync will be the same as the reported maximum. I suggest disconnecting and reconnecting your session (or rebooting your router) before doing this to ensure that the IP profile has been updated.

Cheers Kevin, wondered that myself too.

Down: 38.72 x 1.033 = 39.99776

Up: 10Mbps

In reply to a post by D_an_W:

Down: 38.72 x 1.033 = 39.99776

As both of those figures are only to 4 significant digits, you should round the answer as well, which gives you 40.00 - sounds better!

I prefer to divide the IP Profile by 0.9679, which loses the rounding down introduced by the 1.033 figure, which I think you got by dividing 1 by 0.9679.

That gives the correct answer of 40.

Bear in mind that the highest IP Profile is actually 38717kbps on 40Mbps products.

Edited by RobertoS (Fri 04-May-12 22:26:43)

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

I prefer to divide the IP Profile by 0.9679, which loses the rounding down introduced by the 1.033 figure, which I think you got by dividing 1 by 0.9679.

That gives the correct answer of 40.

Bear in mind that the highest IP Profile is actually 38717kbps on 40Mbps products.

But given that the displayed IP profile is now rounded anyway and you can't get at the exact figure it doesn't make a lot of a difference how you do it as long as you round the answer!

As for the 96.79% figure, I think the real number is somewhere between 96.79% and 96.8% but it all gets a bit silly over the odd kbps.

Edited by kasg (Sat 05-May-12 10:22:50)

In reply to a post by Cobra001:

I have the ECI version so without physically altering the box I can't get my stats. All I want is the line sync speed for up and down. As this is reported to the ISP router (in my case sky) is there away that I could detect the sync speed??

I thought there was a way? http://hackingecibfocusv2fubirevb.wordpress.com/

Not really, currently you have to solder on a serial port and access it that way...

There looking to develop a soft method for accessing stats

Ah ok, thanks.

do we know how the ISP router are picking up infomation like the syn speed???

What do you mean by "the ISP router"?

Do you mean one you have that they have supplied, or one on their internal network?

Basically no "router" knows anything about sync speed. Only modem/routers such as an ADSL2+ router or a VDSL2 router do, because they have a built-in modem.

The one you connect to the OR modem doesn't. That's the problem . Only the modem knows it.

The other place that the sync speed (and some other info) is known is at the cabinet (DSLAM?), I'm sure that this info is available to BT (Openreach/Wholesale) and (indirectly) the ISP.

In reply to a post by kasg:

If you get your IP profile from the BT speed tester (diagnostic version), your downstream sync speed can be obtained by multiplying the IP profile by 1.033 and the upstream sync will be the same as the reported maximum. I suggest disconnecting and reconnecting your session (or rebooting your router) before doing this to ensure that the IP profile has been updated.

Not true on the upstream sync.

Upstream IP profile appears to always be just the limit for the service you're on and bears no relation to sync speed.

Not true on the upstream sync.

Upstream IP profile appears to always be just the limit for the service you're on and bears no relation to sync speed.

Thanks, I don't think I've ever had a connection that didn't sync at the maximum possible upstream, so I would not have noticed.

Edited by kasg (Sun 06-May-12 15:59:48)

In reply to a post by Al1264:

The other place that the sync speed (and some other info) is known is at the cabinet (DSLAM?), I'm sure that this info is available to BT (Openreach/Wholesale) and (indirectly) the ISP.

You misread my reply to Cobra. I started with a question, remember?

In any case, my post was carefully worded. It is indeed known at the cabinet, by the modem there handling the line. This appears to get back into the BT Wholesale DLM, as I have explained elsewhere, to enable calculation of the WBC IP Profile.

Routers do not "pick up " the sync.

Absolutely agree RobertoS,
I was not arguing or picking holes in your post, just adding information.
A router (without modem) has no information about sync or any other DSL stats but those who have no access to their own modem line stats can, in certain circumstances, obtain some of this information via their ISP.

Seems i misunderstood your post . Anyway:-

The upstream and downstream VDSL data rate is reported to the CP BRAS/Radius upon PPP discovery (a similar mechanism exists for DHCP ¡V see section 2.1.7). The VDSL rate states the rate at which Ethernet traffic can be transmitted on the link. This traffic comprises of:
- A 4 byte per frame overhead added by Openreach for internal routing
- A degree of overhead introduced by DSL (Packet Transfer Mode layer),
- The EU traffic sent from the CP, or from the EU.

yes the one provided by the ISP. Least sky router show the sync speed. No this must being sent to the ISP router some how as I agree it would not being doing it "natively". Guess the Openreach router broadcast it to the ISP router, therefore if we had an idea on how it could be intercepted

I thought I should add my two pence.

The sky router is definitely picking up some statistics somehow. It knows the sync up and down and it also detects if the modem drops connection as the WAN on the statistcs resets to 0 like ordinary ADSL...

Just to backup what Cobra001 has been saying here are the details that the sky router picks up.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/444/skyrouter1....
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/151/skyrouter2....

I think the homehub does things differently.

Also with the sky connection. If you connect to the modem directly via ethernet and bypass the modem the internet does not work. You can only get connection by using the sky router. This forces MER also. Which also means using your own router on sky is a no no unless you plug it into the sky router ie MODEM - SKY ROUTER - OWN ROUTER.

Those values aren't the sync speeds of the openreach Modem.

Those are the limits of the connection the sky router has with the Openreach modem., i.e. the profile you have. In your case a 40/2 profile.

True sync speeds would show the maximum that the router would be capable of.

See bottom of page for an example.

http://beusergroup.co.uk/technotes/index.php?title=D...

Edited by TheManStan (Mon 07-May-12 00:52:20)

My openreach modem has an atainable rate of over 100 mbps (when the modem is hacked). My SNR is over 26db in the modem

Which makes me think that the modems actually synced at 39998 kbps currently. Otherwise why would the SNR be so high?

The modem does report 'attainable rate.' It doesn't report the current sync speed anywhere which I assumed was what the router was detecting?

Either way how does the router know the connection speed etc?

In reply to a post by Cobra001:

yes the one provided by the ISP. Least sky router show the sync speed. No this must being sent to the ISP router some how as I agree it would not being doing it "natively". Guess the Openreach router broadcast it to the ISP router, therefore if we had an idea on how it could be intercepted

If that is the sync speed, and not the maximum for the product as Stanman suggests, (I have no idea which is correct), then it can only be coming from the Sky system somewhere. As I think you could be thinking yourself.

The Sky system gets told it by the kit in the cabinet, as per the BT document I quoted above. So it could send it back down as data for your router.

What is absolutely certain is that your Openrech modem that is plugged into your phone line is not supplying it to your router.

We will only know the truth of the matter when either somone gets it showing less than the maximum, or somone hacks the modem and gets different figures. People on 80/20 are the ones to look out for, as there are many on that on other ISPs getting lower than 80/20 sync's.

In reply to a post by ukhardy07:

The modem does report 'attainable rate.' It doesn't report the current sync speed anywhere which I assumed was what the router was detecting?

[cough]
What's this then?

# xdslcmd info --stats
xdslcmd: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Retrain Reason: 2
Max:    Upstream rate = 15624 Kbps, Downstream rate = 59328 Kbps
Path:   0, Upstream rate = 1999 Kbps, Downstream rate = 39997 Kbps

Link Power State:       L0
Mode:                   VDSL2 Annex B
VDSL2 Profile:          Profile 17a
TPS-TC:                 PTM Mode
Trellis:                U:ON /D:ON
Line Status:            No Defect
Training Status:        Showtime
                Down            Up
SNR (dB):        14.3            20.5
Attn(dB):        0.0             0.0
Pwr(dBm):        12.6            0.4

The line below the "Max" line is the sync speeds.

In reply to a post by kasg:

If you get your IP profile from the BT speed tester (diagnostic version), your downstream sync speed can be obtained by multiplying the IP profile by 1.033 and the upstream sync will be the same as the reported maximum. I suggest disconnecting and reconnecting your session (or rebooting your router) before doing this to ensure that the IP profile has been updated.

Just realised.

I wouldn't expect the BT speed test to run on Cobra's connection. Sky are supposed to be taking a GEA feed, not WBC. Not only should the test not work, there probably is no IP Profile either, as per Sky ADSL2+.

Edited by RobertoS (Mon 07-May-12 01:37:43)

I will look at my openreach modems sync statistics and see if they are identical to the sky router info

I find it interesting.

Also can you explain why the Internet only works with the router plugged in? If I plug my pc directly into the router and unplug the sky router I can't get online.

If the connections all made in the modem surely I wouldn't need the sky router

Does the router authenticate somehow?

EDIT: this is the case with modem both locked and unlocked & via both ports 1 and 2

Edited by ukhardy07 (Mon 07-May-12 01:44:10)

Yes no profile as such on sky & ofc speed tester does not work

I just feel that sky's doing something quite different to BT

Edited by ukhardy07 (Mon 07-May-12 01:40:29)

They are doing things different to BT Wholesale, yes. But the modem and GEA are the same. Period.

With 100Mbps attainable and 26dB noise margin, you will be on maximum sync for the product, so sync's will probably be the same as the router is showing. It's people on greater distances from the cabinet where it will show.

Presumably when by-passing the router, you are putting the login details into your computer's network connection system? The modem only sync's with the exchange. It does not authenticate with the ISP. But I have no knowledge of this MER system, whether that affects logging in using on-computer settings.

Edited by RobertoS (Mon 07-May-12 01:51:46)

I'm tempted to unfilter my setup and introduce lots of noise on the line... That would lower the sync.
After all there's no profile / DLM for me to worry about.

Really interested in this

Also no. I was simply plugging in. I understand now. I thought wrongly that the modem also had the login details etc.

Based on this if I got my own router that supported MER I could theoretically use my own router without using sky's what so ever.

Always learning!

There most certainly is DLM, remember the cabinet and link back to the exchange are run by Openreach, and that section - which includes your line, over which DLM operates - will be exactly the same as with a BT WBC service. There is no IP profile, but DLM will still interleave and/or cap your line if you screw around with it too much.

Yes, you could use your own router (as long as it supports MER, which is as of yet uncommon, but anything that runs Openwrt should do it). Windows doesn't do MER, which is why plugging it straight into your computer won't work (easily). It is possible, but only with some heavy modifications.

Edited by deleted (Mon 07-May-12 03:14:10)

I have a friend in sky who has categorically told me that DLM has been turned off on my line. Not sure I believe him 1000% though!

I'll leave things alone for the time being. Perhaps somebody can shed some light on the situation who is on 80/20 sky £30 product.

As qasdfdsaq says, there is Openreach DLM running, over which Sky have some control but emphatically cannot turn off.

This runs on the DSLAM in the cabinet, controlling the link between there and you. You have to beware of upsetting that. If it thinks a line is unstable it introduces "banding", which has a much more dramatic effect then the BT Wholesale IP Profile system.

What your friend will be referring to will be the Sky DLM, and whatever functions that performs. The nearest parallel I can give is the BT Wholesale DLM which controls the line on non-LLU ADSLx lines, but does not have anything like the same significance on FTTC. That still accepts stability settings and such from ISPs using their service, but instead of applying them directly to the line it passes them through to the Openreach one.

It also receives the sync speed details from the Openreach one, and uses that to set the IP Profile. Sky also receive that sync information. What they do with it that you can observe I don't know, but it will certainly be controlling the speed data is arriving at the cabinet DSLAM. Keeping it at or below the ethernet data rate. (Sync rate less overheads). If it did not, there could be huge packet loss there and chaos within their network.

Thanks for such an in depth explanation

I won't be doing any messing then!

In reply to a post by ukhardy07:

Based on this if I got my own router that supported MER I could theoretically use my own router without using sky's what so ever.

You couldn't use your own router even if it supported MER because Sky use a variant of MER which has some sort of second authentication layer which which AFAIK no one has worked out yet. Even if they did work it out, some form of custom firmware will probably be needed.

The best anyone has done so far is set up a router with a static IP address, using the IP address obtained from a genuine Sky router but the connection has dropped after about 30 minutes when the IP lease is renewed.

In reply to a post by simon194:

You couldn't use your own router even if it supported MER because Sky use a variant of MER which has some sort of second authentication layer which which AFAIK no one has worked out yet. Even if they did work it out, some form of custom firmware will probably be needed.

Untrue - there is a working firmware from Billion that fixes the problem entirely.
Others have made Ubuntu and other distros work.

The best anyone has done so far is set up a router with a static IP address, using the IP address obtained from a genuine Sky router but the connection has dropped after about 30 minutes when the IP lease is renewed.

Nope - people have proper DHCP working and renewing leases.

The sky username/password needs to be sent in the DHCP client request - on an unusual DHCP option number.

Not many routers support it

Also can you explain why the Internet only works with the router plugged in? If I plug my pc directly into the router and unplug the sky router I can't get online.

If the connections all made in the modem surely I wouldn't need the sky router

Does the router authenticate somehow?

So, the modem makes sync with the DSLAM, the router is configured to make the PPP session over that sync.

*If* you were provided a username and password by Sky, you could plug a cable directly betwwenLAN1 and the PC and then have the PC make a PPP session directly. As ever, Sky are 'cute' about log in details.

The advantage of using the router to authenticate, is that it the makes connection more than one device simple.

wrong I am currently using DD WRT router and it working 100% hence why I would like to see my sync details without having to connect up the sky router.

So far lastime I lot my net connection was 3 days ago, when I working on the internal wiring and the router was in the way

In reply to a post by jchamier:

Untrue - there is a working firmware from Billion that fixes the problem entirely.
Others have made Ubuntu and other distros work.

I thought the Billion firmware was for the MER connections over normal ADSL?

I wasnt aware that they had a firmware that supported the SKY implementation of MER over FTTC?

sure I read somehwere there someone managed to connect billion up to sky router not sure if it was an offical work around by billion or if someone managed to hack something together based off billion info they released

In reply to a post by jchamier:

In reply to a post by simon194:

You couldn't use your own router even if it supported MER because Sky use a variant of MER which has some sort of second authentication layer which which AFAIK no one has worked out yet. Even if they did work it out, some form of custom firmware will probably be needed.

Untrue - there is a working firmware from Billion that fixes the problem entirely.
Others have made Ubuntu and other distros work.

The best anyone has done so far is set up a router with a static IP address, using the IP address obtained from a genuine Sky router but the connection has dropped after about 30 minutes when the IP lease is renewed.

Nope - people have proper DHCP working and renewing leases.

The sky username/password needs to be sent in the DHCP client request - on an unusual DHCP option number.

Not many routers support it

Indeed this gentlemen is correct. I have built my own Netgear image which puts an extra switch into the DHCP Client lease request to Sky. The key is passing the ADSL user/pass with the DHCP request. I'm sure on any router where the firmware is OpenSource due to it's BusyBox usage has the ability to be altered.

On the Sky FTTC front, I assume the GEA modem is in some sort of Bridge mode and the Sky Router does a PPPoE authentication with MER, hence why a direct Ethernet connection from your laptop doesn't work.

In reply to a post by Anonymous:

On the Sky FTTC front, I assume the GEA modem is in some sort of Bridge mode and the Sky Router does a PPPoE authentication with MER, hence why a direct Ethernet connection from your laptop doesn't work.

I believe its MPoA as used by BE & O2 - and the DHCP needs the extra option. The OpenReach modem will be passive, and Sky don't really need a login as they know which line is which - they're just being annoying!

so I take no one really know how the BT openreach modem is sending the line sync speed to my sky router?? DOes any of the other FTTC ISP provided router show the lkine speed or ios it just sky?

First time I've seen it.

We need to see other Sky users, just to check that the numbers are not hard coded into the interface.

that has been checkes other people have reported differnt link sync, but not many, mainly due to the 40 meg cap, and when BTO was working on my line (due to fault) they snc speed dropped to 0 though it still maintained it was connected.

cheers

D

In reply to a post by Cobra001:

so I take no one really know how the BT openreach modem is sending the line sync speed to my sky router??

Your Sky Sagemcom F@ST2504n router is obtaining the line sync speed from a Sky server. The 2504n is not getting those line statistics from the Openreach VDSL2 CPE modem.

The firmware for the 2504n must be custom-built for Sky with additional networking at the TCP/IP layer to obtain those stats.

cheers, a

Edited by deleted (Wed 09-May-12 14:15:40)

In reply to a post by Cobra001:

so I take no one really know how the BT openreach modem is sending the line sync speed to my sky router??

We know it isn't.

Does any of the other FTTC ISP provided router show the line speed or is it just sky?

You are the first to have posted any such stats.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

In reply to a post by Cobra001:

so I take no one really know how the BT openreach modem is sending the line sync speed to my sky router??

We know it isn't

How do "we" know that? Have we wiresharked the modem-router connection?

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

First time I've seen it.

We need to see other Sky users, just to check that the numbers are not hard coded into the interface.

Another one here http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/sky/t/4121723-sky-i...

What you can do Cobra is buy from FleaBay or some other site a HG612 huawei Openreach modem, unlock the firmware and get your stats that way.
Should be quite a cheap way no more than £20 + shipping.

That raises the question of compatability with the DSLAM.

I think we can expect no problem, but there may be a non-commercial reason for Openreach apparently installing the same manufacturer's kit in the cabinet and end-user premises.

The OP has ECI so we can assume an ECI DSLAM.

Though it would certainly be interesting to know how well the apparent 'mismatch' works.

Probably no better or worse than those who've been using Drayteks on their FTTC service.

The underlying hardware and drivers aren't made by either party anyway, so the only thing a vendor can influence with compatibility is in screwing up (or preferably not) higher level firmware functions.

In reply to a post by Al1264:

Though it would certainly be interesting to know how well the apparent 'mismatch' works.

The HG612 modem appears to work quite well on an ECI DSLAM.

ECI DSLAMs actually seem to provide more connection data than Huawei DSLAMS.

This can be seen in the stats graphs , such as upstream QLN,SNR & Hlog data etc.

HG612 & ECI DSLAM Graphs

Indeed Bald_Eagle1, they are supposed to work together.

http://bit.ly/l8hYsj shortened link to openreach trialist doc.

ps been following you folks on kitz working on the ECI, impressive progress! Very well done!

In reply to a post by Bald_Eagle1:

ECI DSLAMs actually seem to provide more connection data than Huawei DSLAMS.

This can be seen in the stats graphs , such as upstream QLN,SNR & Hlog data etc.

HG612 & ECI DSLAM Graphs

Nice, thanks Bald_Eagle1, makes your excellent graphing tool even better

Incidentally, that's just what I expect your line to look like (i.e. about 800m)

In reply to a post by qasdfdsaq:

Incidentally, that's just what I expect your line to look like (i.e. about 800m)

I reckon it may well have looked a bit more like that when I was getting the higher speed, stable connections.

I'd be well pleased if it ever got to look like that particular connection after all these months.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

That raises the question of compatability with the DSLAM.

I think we can expect no problem, but there may be a non-commercial reason for Openreach apparently installing the same manufacturer's kit in the cabinet and end-user premises

I get a little over 31Mb and I'm a mile from the cabinet using the standard OR Huawei. I did try connecting using my Fritz!Box 7390 and that only synced at a shade over 30Mb so I swapped back straight away, even before the session was established!

What progress? Is there a hack out?

I'm trying to find out my own line stats on the ECI. Any help would be greatly appreciated. First time in a decade I've been completely blocked from seeing my stats and it's very annoying.

In reply to a post by KStax:

What progress? Is there a hack out?

Take a look here:-

ECI Modem - Hardware Hack

Thanks, hopefully they make a breakthrough.

Bald_Eagle1

Just received my Huawei Hg612 and decided to use the nice graphing tools you folks have put together.

http://i.imgbox.com/aaccWye9.png

I'm ~400m from the cab. When the engineer came to do the install he showed me the JDSU and it was reading around 120,000 kbps max.

However, what I'm seeing now is ~62,000 kbps. So i get the feeling that something has gone awry.

Your comments and experience appreciated.

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/guide/fibre-broadband.... still pretty good.

Chances are that others have got connected now, so crosstalk is cutting speed back

next time i see an OR engineer fiddling in the cab i'll ask how populated it is. It's only been live since march.

The DSL checker is reporting 59 Mbps speed, which i've taken normally as being pretty conservative. So getting 47-52 IP profiles seems somewhat low.

It's possible that other people have been connected to your cab, resulting in crosstalk and a reduction in your max attainable rate. What does the BTW checker say you should expect?

Edit: Posts above showed up a bit late!

Edited by mysticeddy (Tue 15-May-12 15:19:14)

In reply to a post by TheManStan:

Your comments and experience appreciated.

I'll comment, but my experience is only really of my own [censored] connection

Your band plan suggests you were intitially provided with the ECI modem as you are connected to an ECI DSLAM cabinet.

This MAY explain why you are currently seeing lower Attainable rates, due to a slight mismatch between the Huawei HG612 modem & the ECI DSLAM.

You don't have much spare SNRM, so it appears that's all you are likely to achieve, unless a physical fault has increased your line attenuation values.
I'm still not sure what attenuation values to expect for various distances & having attenuation split over a few bands doesn't really help matters.

If nothing has actually deteriorated, it would suggest that the initial JDSU reading of 120,000 kbps may have been a spurious result.

Proving any of this is almost impossible as you were unable to log your own stats, using your own equipment when FTTC was first installed.

I would have expected QLN to be closer to -130 or -140 dB.
You may just have a generally noisy line, or suffer really badly from crosstalk.

Graphing the Ongoing stats 24/7 for a few days may provide additional pointers as to what's up. e.g. massive bursts of errors, dropping SNRM levels, or many re-syncs etc.

DS Interleaving depth of 869 also seems high. Mine is less than 500 over somewhere between 820m & 1000m from the cabinet.
This again suggests high error counts and/or noise levels.

How long have you actually had a FTTC connection?

Not much help really. Sorry.
A prolonged period of stats data may give some further clues.

EDIT:
Just noticed, you have only been connected since March

Edited by deleted (Tue 15-May-12 17:59:30)

Thanks for your comments.

You're correct with respect to the ECI cab and modem. The lack of stats made me consider, then buy the huawei modem (which I received today). The IP Profiles were those obtained with the ECI modem, which are similar to that i have with the Huawei (in fact the Huawei gives me slightly higher sync).

People in the Oxfordshire area, e.g. Didcot which has been live longer, which in theory would be fuller cabs show higher sync speeds ~70 Mbps at identical distances.

Something i noticed on a walk towards the cab, is that the ducts pass right next to what appears to be an electrical sub-station. This just adds to potential sources of noise... maybe if I find out if any of my immediate neighbours have FTTC and have the same sync speeds I'll be better placed to see if it's a local phenomenon or just my connection.

In reply to a post by TheManStan:

Something i noticed on a walk towards the cab, is that the ducts pass right next to what appears to be an electrical sub-station.

Thanks for mentioning that 'TheManStan', I have taken a few walks to my FTTC cab and, until now I never gave a thought to the electrical sub-station 'brick shed' that I have walked right past each time. I estimate I'm a similar distance to you ~450m and get 62400 down and 20000 up sync (not bad but some have better at that distance).

Al1264

is 62400 your attainable rate or your max rate?

Both, they're currently identical.
Upstream I get an attainable rate of 32Mb though which seems very good for my distance.

Now a bit more disappointed...

http://www.daftlogic.com/projects-google-maps-distan...

used this to calculate distance to cab and it's 350m following the ducts along the roads.

This means that there is either a hell of a lot of noise from whatever sources or there is something screwy with my line.

Tried the ECI modem again and it gives a lower IP profile. So it seems that the Huawei is better at dealing with noise.