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Standard User Andrue
(knowledge is power) Tue 25-Dec-12 21:06:39
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A knowledge confirmation/correction please


[link to this post]
 
I may have to have another argument with my ISP in the new year. At present my modem is connected in excess of 70Mb/s (71Mb/s I think but I'm not at home to check) with a similarly high profile. I've used Bald_Eagle's tool to download some graphs and they show little to no variation in the bits per tone or SNR over the course of half an hour.

Would I be correct in saying that the cause of my current 30Mb/s throughput cap cannot be interference? My understanding is that the connection speed is (give or take TCP overheads) what the line is capable of and if there was interference my modem would be connected at around 31Mb/s?

FYI here's one of the graphs I got from my modem:

Link Removed. sadoldman

This is the same fault I've mentioned previously - it repeats on the 19th of every other month (June, August, October and now December) and takes a few days to clear - or at least a few days after it starts a modem switch off for 20 minutes fixes it.

The most annoying thing about this is Tech Support's insistence that it's interference and the only thing they can do is send an engineer round to check my line. They are reluctant to do that (so am I) as the line test shows as all clear (quelle surprise). At that point they tell me I'll have to live with it and that pretty much ends the conversation.

---
Andrue Cope
Brackley, UK

Just because he could. RIP.

Edited by Sadoldman (Wed 26-Dec-12 06:51:56)

Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Tue 25-Dec-12 23:41:41
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Re: A knowledge confirmation/correction please


[re: Andrue] [link to this post]
 
It might be useful if we could have the modem stats, (both --pbParams and --show, or even --stats instead of --show as that gives the error stats), for when it is bad, for comparison. That might help analyse things a little better.

I remember reading your earlier post about the exact 2-monthly occurrences. I've no brainwaves at the moment I'm afraid frown .

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet Extra Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.0/14.9Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User Chrysalis
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 26-Dec-12 03:47:39
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Re: A knowledge confirmation/correction please


[re: Andrue] [link to this post]
 
your line has similiar attenuation to mine and similiar attainable figures, you seem to have also similiar noise levels to me but yours is a bit higher.

sadly tho if you are having issues on the 19th you need to run your ongoing graph around that time period so we need to wait a few weeks probably.

BT Infinity 2 Since Dec 2012 - Estimate 65.9/20 - Attainable peak 110/36 - Current Sync 71/20

Edited by Chrysalis (Wed 26-Dec-12 03:47:56)


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Moderator Sadoldman
(moderator) Wed 26-Dec-12 07:03:04
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Re: A knowledge confirmation/correction please


[re: Andrue] [link to this post]
 
Link remove because of some inappropriate images.

This may explain it.

Sadoldman

Just a tad sad..a wee bit old...wink

[email protected]
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband moderator but it does not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User Andrue
(knowledge is power) Wed 26-Dec-12 08:52:39
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Re: A knowledge confirmation/correction please


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Chrysalis:
your line has similiar attenuation to mine and similiar attainable figures, you seem to have also similiar noise levels to me but yours is a bit higher.

sadly tho if you are having issues on the 19th you need to run your ongoing graph around that time period so we need to wait a few weeks probably.
I'm hoping and expecting that when I get home on Friday I can restore normality. That appears to be the case on prior occasions.

* In June I just gave up after a couple of days and after 10 days (hmmm...) it fixed itself.
* In August rebooting on the 22nd seemed to fix it.
* In October I was away until the 24th and rebooting it then fixed it.

Given some of the curious dates (3 days after my install went live, seems to go on for three days, once cleared after ten days) my current theory is that my regrade from 40/10 to 80/20 was botched and the old 40/10 profile is still around and for some reason every two months it goes through a 'retraining' period. The speeds I get albeit highly variable are about what I'd expect from a 40/10 connection.

All of this to my mind counts against it being interference. I don't reboot the modem - I just reboot the router to establish a new session. This time I will first tell the router to disconnect (which hopefully terminates the current PPP session so I don't have to wait 20 minutes).

---
Andrue Cope
Brackley, UK

Just because he could. RIP.

Edited by Andrue (Wed 26-Dec-12 11:22:10)

Standard User R0NSKI
(experienced) Wed 26-Dec-12 09:34:47
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Re: A knowledge confirmation/correction please


[re: Sadoldman] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Sadoldman:
Link remove because of some inappropriate images.

This may explain it.


Perhaps if this forum was updated, then we'd be able to post pictures directly, it really is in need of a refresh, I mean I'm viewing this on a 27" monitor but most of the screen is black background with a tiny window of the website in the middle!

http://i672.photobucket.com/albums/vv87/Ronskiman/Va...

Edited by R0NSKI (Wed 26-Dec-12 10:33:28)

Standard User Andrue
(knowledge is power) Wed 26-Dec-12 10:54:11
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Re: A knowledge confirmation/correction please


[re: Andrue] [link to this post]
 
How about:

http://i48.tinypic.com/15hd2xj.png

---
Andrue Cope
Brackley, UK

Just because he could. RIP.
Standard User yarwell
(sensei) Wed 26-Dec-12 14:15:25
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Re: A knowledge confirmation/correction please


[re: Andrue] [link to this post]
 
I don't reboot the modem - I just reboot the router to establish a new session.
Presumably that means that you are not affecting anything to do with the physical or DSL layers, as the modem will stay connected and synced. This confirms your position that it isn't a "line" issue as all a new PPP session will do is send the prevailing sync speed up the food chain as refreshed data.

--

Phil

MaxDSL - goes as fast as it can and doesn't read the line checker first.

MaxDSL diagnostics
Moderator Sadoldman
(moderator) Wed 26-Dec-12 14:55:38
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Re: A knowledge confirmation/correction please


[re: R0NSKI] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by R0NSKI:
Perhaps if this forum was updated, then we'd be able to post pictures directly, it really is in need of a refresh,...........

I think Seb is well aware that some updating would help but as the staff who provide and run the site all have to earn a living with day jobs, time and money do constrict things.

Both mods do it because they believe that a site that is truly independent even if a little old fashioned is worth the effort. The basic aim of providing impartial information and being able to use the resources of members only too willing to help others remains. regardless of the format.

We mods of course get our reward with the love, respect, and admiration of every one of our members.tongue

Sadoldman

Just a tad sad..a wee bit old...wink

[email protected]
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband moderator but it does not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User Chrysalis
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 26-Dec-12 15:32:58
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Re: A knowledge confirmation/correction please


[re: Andrue] [link to this post]
 
sorry I meant your interference is similiar, I wasnt necessarily saying it is interference.

Cant say anything at all really as need to see the sync behaviour around that time. If the sync doesnt change at all then it points to what you suspect.

BT Infinity 2 Since Dec 2012 - Estimate 65.9/20 - Attainable peak 110/36 - Current Sync 71/20
Standard User yarwell
(sensei) Wed 26-Dec-12 15:38:16
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Re: A knowledge confirmation/correction please


[re: Andrue] [link to this post]
 
the 30M is presumably the CIR for your 80M service, which may stimulate some thoughts.

--

Phil

MaxDSL - goes as fast as it can and doesn't read the line checker first.

MaxDSL diagnostics
Standard User Andrue
(knowledge is power) Wed 26-Dec-12 17:30:02
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Re: A knowledge confirmation/correction please


[re: Andrue] [link to this post]
 
Huh. Just noticed that I mentioned switching off the modem in my first message. That's wrong. I almost never touch the modem. It's the router I switch off for 20 minutes to ensure the session is cleared.

---
Andrue Cope
Brackley, UK

Just because he could. RIP.

Edited by Andrue (Wed 26-Dec-12 17:30:37)

Standard User Andrue
(knowledge is power) Fri 28-Dec-12 17:04:20
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Re: A knowledge confirmation/correction please


[re: Andrue] [link to this post]
 
Thar she blows!

Hopefully:

My Broadband Ping

Interesting though. The first big red bar is me telling my NetGear to disconnect and leaving it that way for half an hour. It didn't work. The second red bar is me powering off the NetGear for 20 minutes - that seems to have worked. I'm getting full speed and the maximum latency spikes are gone. I'll check again tonight but I reckon it'll be back to a nice clean trace again.

Note: At no point have I powered off my modem.

So that confirms it's not a line fault. It also suggests that disconnecting the router is not the same as powering off whatever that proves.

---
Andrue Cope
Brackley, UK

Just because he could. RIP.

Edited by Andrue (Fri 28-Dec-12 17:05:00)

Standard User Uilebheist
(legend) Fri 28-Dec-12 17:10:17
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Re: A knowledge confirmation/correction please


[re: Andrue] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Andrue:
It also suggests that disconnecting the router is not the same as powering off whatever that proves.

It may mean that the problem is your router. Does it get very hot when left powered on?
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Fri 28-Dec-12 17:11:40
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Re: A knowledge confirmation/correction please


[re: Andrue] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Andrue:
It also suggests that disconnecting the router is not the same as powering off whatever that proves.
It proves that a router OS can get screwed up in knots just like any other. Only a reboot solves that - and occasionally even a power off is needed, as you did.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet Extra Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.0/14.9Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User Andrue
(knowledge is power) Fri 28-Dec-12 18:57:54
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Re: A knowledge confirmation/correction please


[re: Uilebheist] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Uilebheist:
In reply to a post by Andrue:
It also suggests that disconnecting the router is not the same as powering off whatever that proves.

It may mean that the problem is your router. Does it get very hot when left powered on?
No, just normal. And anyway no temperature related fault would only trigger on the 19th of every other month and more significantly the fault was present when I connected my laptop directly.

Anyway my connection is now stable and happy so we can certainly eliminate interference. I'm also confident we can eliminate my router or my network. So the fault lies in the cabinet, BTw or IDNet.

---
Andrue Cope
Brackley, UK

Just because he could. RIP.

Edited by Andrue (Fri 28-Dec-12 19:05:53)

Standard User Andrue
(knowledge is power) Fri 28-Dec-12 18:59:36
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Re: A knowledge confirmation/correction please


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
In reply to a post by Andrue:
It also suggests that disconnecting the router is not the same as powering off whatever that proves.
It proves that a router OS can get screwed up in knots just like any other. Only a reboot solves that - and occasionally even a power off is needed, as you did.
No it doesn't.

As I wrote in one of my other replies:

'This time I will first tell the router to disconnect (which hopefully terminates the current PPP session so I don't have to wait 20 minutes)'.

Normally as indicated in other messages in this thread I power the router off for 20 minutes or so.. It's been powered off several times in the last week already. The disconnect was something new I thought I'd try since it could be done from my armchair without going upstairs. Apparently it's not as effective which is curious but certainly doesn't suggest the router is at fault.

In any case prior to starting this thread as part of sensible due diligence I'd already bypassed the router and connected my laptop directly. The same fault was present. Obviously a router fault cannot also affect a laptop wink

---
Andrue Cope
Brackley, UK

Just because he could. RIP.

Edited by Andrue (Fri 28-Dec-12 19:03:42)

Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Fri 28-Dec-12 19:07:39
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Re: A knowledge confirmation/correction please


[re: Andrue] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Andrue:
...
As I said at the start of the thread. If you're trying to blame this on the router then explain why:

a)It only happens on the 19th of every other month.
b)The fault was also present when I connected to the modem directly using my laptop.
tongue smile
You will of course remember most of the detail of your own threads and posts.

I responded to the post I replied to, and specifically my quote from it. Now that you remind me, indeed I agree with you. The most striking feature is indeed the fixed bi-monthly 19th.

Yah boo! smile smile

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet Extra Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.0/14.9Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User Andrue
(knowledge is power) Fri 28-Dec-12 20:31:50
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Re: A knowledge confirmation/correction please


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
In reply to a post by Andrue:
...
As I said at the start of the thread. If you're trying to blame this on the router then explain why:

a)It only happens on the 19th of every other month.
b)The fault was also present when I connected to the modem directly using my laptop.
tongue smile
You will of course remember most of the detail of your own threads and posts.

I responded to the post I replied to, and specifically my quote from it. Now that you remind me, indeed I agree with you. The most striking feature is indeed the fixed bi-monthly 19th.

Yah boo! smile smile
Lol! Well anyway it's over for another two months. I have to decide how to approach IDNet with this. No doubt they'll dismiss the speed difference, dismiss the latency or dismiss the crippled service over Christmas. Probably blame interference again and tell me to wander around my neighbourhood with a medium wave radio.

Faults are one thing - it's disinterest and feeble excuses from their technical support that I hate. If I wanted to bang my head on the wall talking to badly trained monkeys I'd have signed up with BT :-/

---
Andrue Cope
Brackley, UK

Just because he could. RIP.
Standard User StephenTodd
(committed) Sat 29-Dec-12 11:49:31
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Re: A knowledge confirmation/correction please


[re: Andrue] [link to this post]
 
Going right back to the original post

I've used Bald_Eagle's tool to download some graphs and they show little to no variation in the bits per tone or SNR over the course of half an hour. Would I be correct in saying that the cause of my current 30Mb/s throughput cap cannot be interference?

It is very common to have interference that is time of day dependent, with sometimes quite extreme differences. So a stable signal over 1/2 hour is not nearly enough to indicate line quality; you need to monitor for at least a couple of days.

Many people who have such interference would like the higher speeds when it is possible, even thought that would force regular disconnects when the noise starts. DLM does not allow you to make such a choice.

A modem log (eg form Bald_Eagle's tool) is an excellent start to diagnosing this. Sometimes it will point to a noise source that can easily be eliminated. Unfortunately, such noise is difficult to track down even when you have an excellent log, and often realistically impossible to fix even if identified.

~~~
When I was on BE ADSL I had a regular 18/19Mb connection. At one point, a noise source started from 8:00am to 9:00am each day, reducing my speed to 15Mb or less. After a few months it went away, and I was never able to identify it. At least, as BE didn't use DLM, I could resync after 9:00 when I knew form the stats that the noise had gone away and get my normal speed for the rest of they day if I needed it.

--
Moved (with trepidation) to BT Infinity 2 for upload speed. Happy BE user for several years.
Standard User Andrue
(knowledge is power) Sat 29-Dec-12 11:59:28
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Re: A knowledge confirmation/correction please


[re: StephenTodd] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by StephenTodd:
Going right back to the original post
The graphs were taken as part of a general investigation. While my modem was reporting a tatic 72Mb/s my laptop and another machine were reporting a variable 20Mb/s to 30Mb/s. If interference was causing the issue then we have to ask why the modem remained connected at 72Mb/s throughout.

---
Andrue Cope
Brackley, UK

Just because he could. RIP.

Edited by Andrue (Sat 29-Dec-12 12:00:17)

Standard User StephenTodd
(committed) Sat 29-Dec-12 12:08:28
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Re: A knowledge confirmation/correction please


[re: Andrue] [link to this post]
 
Sorry, yes you are right. You'd clearly stated actual sync speed of 72 and corresponding profile but I somehow missed it ~ too early in the morning?

--
Moved (with trepidation) to BT Infinity 2 for upload speed. Happy BE user for several years.
Standard User Andrue
(knowledge is power) Sat 29-Dec-12 12:44:09
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Re: A knowledge confirmation/correction please


[re: StephenTodd] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by StephenTodd:
Sorry, yes you are right. You'd clearly stated actual sync speed of 72 and corresponding profile but I somehow missed it ~ too early in the morning?
Could be. Plus it's the holiday. I've given my brain permission to go on slow time until Wedensday smile

---
Andrue Cope
Brackley, UK

Just because he could. RIP.
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Sat 29-Dec-12 12:59:46
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Re: A knowledge confirmation/correction please


[re: Andrue] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Andrue:
Plus it's the holiday. I've given my brain permission to go on slow time until Wedensday smile
I thought it already had permanent permission ....

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet Extra Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.0/14.9Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Sat 29-Dec-12 13:00:30
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Re: A knowledge confirmation/correction please


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
When is Wedensday?


_____________________________________________________________________________________________ this is not usenet __________________
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Sat 29-Dec-12 13:15:53
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Re: A knowledge confirmation/correction please


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
Maybe that's another problem. He gave it the same instruction a few years ago, and it's never been reached.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet Extra Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.0/14.9Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User Andrue
(knowledge is power) Sat 29-Dec-12 16:06:41
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Re: A knowledge confirmation/correction please


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
In reply to a post by Andrue:
Plus it's the holiday. I've given my brain permission to go on slow time until Wedensday smile
I thought it already had permanent permission ....
No - it just doesn't always follow the rules laugh

---
Andrue Cope
Brackley, UK

Just because he could. RIP.
Standard User Andrue
(knowledge is power) Thu 21-Feb-13 18:45:02
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Re: A knowledge confirmation/correction please


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
It might be useful if we could have the modem stats, (both --pbParams and --show, or even --stats instead of --show as that gives the error stats), for when it is bad, for comparison. That might help analyse things a little better.

I remember reading your earlier post about the exact 2-monthly occurrences. I've no brainwaves at the moment I'm afraid frown .
FYI:

http://i50.tinypic.com/359bw2p.png

(Thanks to BaldEagle for the monitoring)

IDNet actually seemed to do a reasonable job this time. They contacted BT and got a response. Unfortunately the BT response wasn't all that helpful and we're back to getting an engineer sent out which I think will be an expensive waste of time.

BT response:
"Remote diagnostics have been carried out and currently all tests pass. No
over-utilisation of the cab is indicated. I have discussed the issues you
have stated (ie issues occur regualrly every 60). The FTTC network team
have stated no profile changes have taken place or any limitations on your
customer circuit.

Next course of action recommended/to be taken: As current remote checks do
not indicate any issue, if you require any further investigation and have
fully eliminated any possible cause of issues with your customer
equipment/set up/sources of interferance, in order to instigate an
Openreach engineerfor further checks"

So it seems I'm stuck :-/

---
Andrue Cope
Brackley, UK

Just because he could. RIP.

Edited by Andrue (Thu 21-Feb-13 18:59:09)

Standard User Chrysalis
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 21-Feb-13 20:29:28
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Re: A knowledge confirmation/correction please


[re: Andrue] [link to this post]
 
Andrue wow so not just my line having it rough.

You got pretty bad QLN like me, you have a stronger hlog graph yet your sync imo is poor for the attenuation like mine.

Your D0 bitloading should be hogging 15bits per tone in my view, but is battered by QLN and you also have one of the unfavourable adsl bitmasking masks thats affecting a lot of D0 tones as well.

Interesting that their remote tests seem to be inadequate as they not picking up the high levels of QLN. Or maybe they are but BT accept that amount of QLN.

BT Infinity 2 Since Dec 2012 - Estimate 65.9/20 - Attainable peak 110/36 - Current Sync 71/20
Moderator billford
(moderator) Thu 21-Feb-13 20:35:50
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Re: A knowledge confirmation/correction please


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Chrysalis:
You got pretty bad QLN
With a reasonably repeatable 60 day pattern it sounds more like QRM to me...

Bill
[email protected] __________________Planes and Boats and ... __________________BQMs: IPv4 IPv6
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband moderator but it does not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User Andrue
(knowledge is power) Thu 21-Feb-13 21:34:36
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Re: A knowledge confirmation/correction please


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Chrysalis:
Andrue wow so not just my line having it rough.
Really? I thought it was pretty reasonable for ~500 metres from the cab and 72Mb/s sync. It stays connected for months at a time. The sync last week was me unplugging everything to replace the extension cable. Prior to that it had been connected since late December. I had the same stability on ADSL2+ - I used to run my Be connection at 3db during the summer and 6db during the winter.

The sync is a bit lower than when I first got it last April (it was 79999 then with 82Mb/s attainable) but it is still winter. It may yet bounce back.

---
Andrue Cope
Brackley, UK

Just because he could. RIP.
Standard User jchamier
(knowledge is power) Thu 21-Feb-13 22:12:27
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Re: A knowledge confirmation/correction please


[re: Andrue] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Andrue:
Really? I thought it was pretty reasonable for ~500 metres from the cab and 72Mb/s sync.


You're lucky to get that sync at 500m. I'm about 510m and I get:
Max: Upstream rate = 9090 Kbps, Downstream rate = 55152 Kbps
Path: 0, Upstream rate = 10497 Kbps, Downstream rate = 48945 Kbps

James BT Infinity 2 19/09/2012 - Estimate 44.6/6.5 - Install 52/12 - Actual 46 / 8 Mbps
Huawei VDSL -> Draytek router -> Apple Airport Extreme -> Belkin Switch -> Windows/Mac/Linux/NAS/Phone
13 years of broadband - 1999 ntl:(512k/1M)/BTbusiness(2M)/Metronet(2M)/Bulldog(8M/16M)/BE(19M/16M)/BT FTTC(46M)
Standard User Chrysalis
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Fri 22-Feb-13 00:26:30
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Re: A knowledge confirmation/correction please


[re: Andrue] [link to this post]
 
well your hlog is better than mine and your attenuation is similiar (almost same).

Before BT added other customers to my cabinet I had 110/36 attainable, thats the basis of me saying a low 70s sync is poor.

If we ignore both those things, your QLN is still higher than average (roughly doubled).

and yeah even with this QLN my line is actually pretty stable as well. I have only had 2 confirmed loss of sync, one was when my attainable dropped from 90 to 73 (which ultimately caused a loss of sync as it went from 80 to 71) and another a few days back when my BRAS rate went from 78 back down to 69 which I believe was down to a DLM change, and also a unconfirmed one 2 days before that also I believe down to DLM both times adjusting my power cutback.

I been exchanging some emails with asboguy on FTTC DLM (he has actually got hold of a HG dslam and looked at how it operates etc.) and he is an agreement with me that DLM probably manages power cutback so its far more complex than adsl DLM.

I am going on attenuation rather than estimated distance for comparison purposes, as people can easily get their distance wrong. eg. I am 200m from my cabinet, you are 500m and we both have the same attenuation smile

Do you know roughly on average how many crc errors you getting a day? thanks.

BT Infinity 2 Since Dec 2012 - Estimate 65.9/20 - Attainable peak 110/36 - Current Sync 71/20

Edited by Chrysalis (Fri 22-Feb-13 00:29:43)

Standard User Andrue
(knowledge is power) Fri 22-Feb-13 08:10:50
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Re: A knowledge confirmation/correction please


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Chrysalis:
Before BT added other customers to my cabinet I had 110/36 attainable, thats the basis of me saying a low 70s sync is poor.
That's interesting. When the engineer installed mine he did laugh when I asked if I'd get the full 80, he said it should easily do that. Also to be fair in the distant past there did appear to be noise problems. Back when I was on IPStream the DLM had me on 12db.
Do you know roughly on average how many crc errors you getting a day? thanks.
I should do - Bald Eagle's monitoring should show it somewhere. I've never had a major resync. Aside from these 'five days of madness' I've been consistent. My connection speed has dropped from 79 to 72 since late summer but that's all.

---
Andrue Cope
Brackley, UK

Just because he could. RIP.
Standard User Chrysalis
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Fri 22-Feb-13 13:07:26
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Re: A knowledge confirmation/correction please


[re: Andrue] [link to this post]
 
yep my ADSL days lets just say were 'eventful'. smile

RobertoS initial analysis of my D side been poor is probably ultimately the problem causing crosstalk intereference issues and DLM managing power across all its ports to minimise the effect. So although my line can handle a higher sync, it may well be having a fatal impact on neighbouring lines.

BT Infinity 2 Since Dec 2012 - Estimate 65.9/20 - Attainable peak 110/36 - Current Sync 71/20

Edited by Chrysalis (Fri 22-Feb-13 13:13:35)

Standard User Andrue
(knowledge is power) Fri 22-Feb-13 19:01:52
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Re: A knowledge confirmation/correction please


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Chrysalis:
Do you know roughly on average how many crc errors you getting a day? thanks.
I'm not sure how I'd find that out. There's this graph:

http://i50.tinypic.com/2hnyssj.png

Which suggests a fairly steady 3 or four an hour I think.

Attainable rate has been steady at 73Mb/s throughout. BaldEagle has looked at the complete set of the last week and pointed out that I don't have interleaving either. My line might not be running as well as one would expect but I don't see anything that would explain this:

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/button/13615...

Do you?

FWIW this was before the onset:

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/button/13612...

---
Andrue Cope
Brackley, UK

Just because he could. RIP.
Standard User jchamier
(knowledge is power) Fri 22-Feb-13 19:48:53
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Re: A knowledge confirmation/correction please


[re: Andrue] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Andrue:
Attainable rate has been steady at 73Mb/s throughout. BaldEagle has looked at the complete set of the last week and pointed out that I don't have interleaving either. My line might not be running as well as one would expect but I don't see anything that would explain this:


I'm guessing a fault on your port in the FTTC cabinet, but I have no idea you'd get a "lift and shift" equivalent.

James BT Infinity 2 19/09/2012 - Estimate 44.6/6.5 - Install 52/12 - Actual 46 / 8 Mbps
Huawei VDSL -> Draytek router -> Apple Airport Extreme -> Belkin Switch -> Windows/Mac/Linux/NAS/Phone
13 years of broadband - 1999 ntl:(512k/1M)/BTbusiness(2M)/Metronet(2M)/Bulldog(8M/16M)/BE(19M/16M)/BT FTTC(46M)
Standard User Chrysalis
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Fri 22-Feb-13 19:52:24
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Re: A knowledge confirmation/correction please


[re: Andrue] [link to this post]
 
yeah you can either check in the gui one day then check the same time the next day and do a maths calculation or there is this telnet command.

xdslcmd info --stats

it will show stats for last 24 hours in the output somewhere.

On my line the error stats arent great, and they werent great even before my QLN jumped up. But they also not terrible as my line hasnt been interleaved.

Usually I average 1200 a day, but there has been at least one bad day this week and it seems it was within the last 24 hours.

As I see this.

Previous 1 day time = 24 hours 0 sec
FEC: 0 0
CRC: 5533 0
ES: 904 254
SES: 5 6
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0

But the last 8 hours have been about normal.

Latest 1 day time = 8 hours 58 min 13 sec
FEC: 0 0
CRC: 337 0
ES: 225 105
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0

I have seen people post error stats where they getting less than half a dozen in an entire day which is I guess what one would expect when no crosstalk and a good D side. But even when I had huge snrm on a 110 attainable sync I was getting 100s a day. Not noticeble tho, its not like my adsl days where I actually was affected by huge amounts of crc errors.

Given all you have posted tho this isnt related to your issue so sorry if I sidetracked you. I asked for your error stats as a comparison to mine since we have very similiar attenuation and QLN.

BT Infinity 2 Since Dec 2012 - Estimate 65.9/20 - Attainable peak 110/36 - Current Sync 71/20

Edited by Chrysalis (Fri 22-Feb-13 19:52:53)

Standard User jchamier
(knowledge is power) Fri 22-Feb-13 19:56:22
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Re: A knowledge confirmation/correction please


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Chrysalis:
On my line the error stats arent great, and they werent great even before my QLN jumped up. But they also not terrible as my line hasnt been interleaved.


Mine are totally different to yours, and I'm interleaved.

Previous 1 day time = 24 hours 0 sec
FEC: 1647061 11963
CRC: 1243 474
ES: 254 389
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0

James BT Infinity 2 19/09/2012 - Estimate 44.6/6.5 - Install 52/12 - Actual 46 / 8 Mbps
Huawei VDSL -> Draytek router -> Apple Airport Extreme -> Belkin Switch -> Windows/Mac/Linux/NAS/Phone
13 years of broadband - 1999 ntl:(512k/1M)/BTbusiness(2M)/Metronet(2M)/Bulldog(8M/16M)/BE(19M/16M)/BT FTTC(46M)
Standard User Chrysalis
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Fri 22-Feb-13 20:04:01
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Re: A knowledge confirmation/correction please


[re: jchamier] [link to this post]
 
I think its a matter of time before I am interleaved, at least if I carry on using the HG.

I have 16 red specks on my tbb graph today, using the ECI just about every day there is 0. I am only using the hg currently for a few weeks to see if DLM touches my line again so I can monitor the sync speed. I plan to long term use the ECI again as its better for my connection.

BT Infinity 2 Since Dec 2012 - Estimate 65.9/20 - Attainable peak 110/36 - Current Sync 71/20
Standard User jchamier
(knowledge is power) Fri 22-Feb-13 20:09:40
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Re: A knowledge confirmation/correction please


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Chrysalis:
I think its a matter of time before I am interleaved, at least if I carry on using the HG.

I have 16 red specks on my tbb graph today, using the ECI just about every day there is 0. I am only using the hg currently for a few weeks to see if DLM touches my line again so I can monitor the sync speed. I plan to long term use the ECI again as its better for my connection.


That makes sense. I set up a BQM to monitor mine, but don't put the link in my .sig as the IP changes too often, as my router likes to reboot whenever I change anything simple.
http://www.thinkbroadband.com/ping/share/a7bc1dbd1b4...

James BT Infinity 2 19/09/2012 - Estimate 44.6/6.5 - Install 52/12 - Actual 46 / 8 Mbps
Huawei VDSL -> Draytek router -> Apple Airport Extreme -> Belkin Switch -> Windows/Mac/Linux/NAS/Phone
13 years of broadband - 1999 ntl:(512k/1M)/BTbusiness(2M)/Metronet(2M)/Bulldog(8M/16M)/BE(19M/16M)/BT FTTC(46M)
Standard User Andrue
(knowledge is power) Fri 22-Feb-13 20:12:43
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Re: A knowledge confirmation/correction please


[re: jchamier] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by jchamier:
In reply to a post by Andrue:
Attainable rate has been steady at 73Mb/s throughout. BaldEagle has looked at the complete set of the last week and pointed out that I don't have interleaving either. My line might not be running as well as one would expect but I don't see anything that would explain this:


I'm guessing a fault on your port in the FTTC cabinet, but I have no idea you'd get a "lift and shift" equivalent.
i have an engineer booked for tomorrow PM. Apparently he has been advised by BTor to investigate throughput rather than line characteristics so there's hope. Of course he may just turn up and insist on sticking his JDSU on the line anyway but who knows - I'm surprised and impressed that IDNet arranged for him to come within twelve hours. I only told them to go ahead at 5pm today.

All things considered a lift and shift at the cab seems the best bet. It doesn't seem to be my line and if it was the backhaul to the exchange or beyond you'd think other people would have noticed or BTor's systems would see something. It's just about feasible that the port in the cab is the culprit.

---
Andrue Cope
Brackley, UK

Just because he could. RIP.
Standard User Andrue
(knowledge is power) Fri 22-Feb-13 20:21:45
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Re: A knowledge confirmation/correction please


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Chrysalis:
yeah you can either check in the gui one day then check the same time the next day and do a maths calculation or there is this telnet command.
It's right down the bottom:

Since Link time = 9 days 1 hours 21 min 29 sec
FEC: 0 3851
CRC: 11270 517
ES: 7545 494
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0

So that's 11,270 over 9 days which is 1,252 per day or 52 per hour. Doesn't sound cataclysmic to me smile

---
Andrue Cope
Brackley, UK

Just because he could. RIP.
Standard User jchamier
(knowledge is power) Fri 22-Feb-13 20:33:38
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Re: A knowledge confirmation/correction please


[re: Andrue] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Andrue:
i have an engineer booked for tomorrow PM. Apparently he has been advised by BTor to investigate throughput rather than line characteristics so there's hope. Of course he may just turn up and insist on sticking his JDSU on the line anyway but who knows - I'm surprised and impressed that IDNet arranged for him to come within twelve hours. I only told them to go ahead at 5pm today.

Excellent that sounds like when I had a line fault that BE organised an SFI, they managed that within 48hours and the SFI was VERY thorough. The very experienced BTO guys on DSL faults are very good, if they're given enough time.

All things considered a lift and shift at the cab seems the best bet. It doesn't seem to be my line and if it was the backhaul to the exchange or beyond you'd think other people would have noticed or BTor's systems would see something. It's just about feasible that the port in the cab is the culprit.

Yes, or the copper tie-pair between the FTTC cab and the PCP - I suspect even an SFI won't be able to touch the FTTC cab as their effectively sealed, but he/she should be able to move you to a new tie-pair.

James BT Infinity 2 19/09/2012 - Estimate 44.6/6.5 - Install 52/12 - Actual 46 / 8 Mbps
Huawei VDSL -> Draytek router -> Apple Airport Extreme -> Belkin Switch -> Windows/Mac/Linux/NAS/Phone
13 years of broadband - 1999 ntl:(512k/1M)/BTbusiness(2M)/Metronet(2M)/Bulldog(8M/16M)/BE(19M/16M)/BT FTTC(46M)
Standard User asbokid
(member) Fri 22-Feb-13 21:02:50
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Re: A knowledge confirmation/correction please


[re: Andrue] [link to this post]
 
This could well be very wrong, but according to G993.2 [1] - those are the specs for VDSL2 - the CRC error count relates to corruption of the Overhead (OH) Frames. Those frames carry timing references, sync bytes, and system primitives.

You have a higher level of CRC errors. And yet you also have a low or even a zero FEC error count. The FEC counter is part of the Reed Solomon decoder and records errors in the payload. High CRC and zero FEC suggests a problem that is not related to noise.

The CRC errors in the absence of FEC errors suggests a framing problem, perhaps some sort of timing error. It would seem impossible to have noise that corrupted only the Overhead frames.

Could well be wrong though.

cheers, a

[1] http://www.itu.int/rec/dologin_pub.asp?lang=e&id=T-R...

Edited by asbokid (Fri 22-Feb-13 21:18:18)

Standard User Chrysalis
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Fri 22-Feb-13 23:40:03
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Re: A knowledge confirmation/correction please


[re: Andrue] [link to this post]
 
so about the same error rate except maybe you dont get these occasional small bursts I get.

I think you have done well to get an engineer out, I cant imagine BT entertaining me asking for one with a 71mbit sync on a 65mbit estimated line frown

BT Infinity 2 Since Dec 2012 - Estimate 65.9/20 - Attainable peak 110/36 - Current Sync 71/20
Standard User Andrue
(knowledge is power) Sat 23-Feb-13 18:04:14
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Re: A knowledge confirmation/correction please


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Chrysalis:
I think you have done well to get an engineer out, I cant imagine BT entertaining me asking for one with a 71mbit sync on a 65mbit estimated line frown
Doesn't look like I did either since no-one has turned up. Although I suppose it's possible that the SFI agrees that the fault is in or beyond the cab and didn't see any need to come here :-/

---
Andrue Cope
Brackley, UK

Just because he could. RIP.
Standard User Andrue
(knowledge is power) Sun 24-Feb-13 11:32:16
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Re: A knowledge confirmation/correction please


[re: Andrue] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Andrue:
In reply to a post by Chrysalis:
I think you have done well to get an engineer out, I cant imagine BT entertaining me asking for one with a 71mbit sync on a 65mbit estimated line frown
Doesn't look like I did either since no-one has turned up. Although I suppose it's possible that the SFI agrees that the fault is in or beyond the cab and didn't see any need to come here :-/
The engineer turned up this morning instead. Unfortunately as I expected all he did was stick his JDSU on the line and run the usual tests. He was interested in the TBBQM graphs I have but was mystified.

I think that in April I'll see if IDNet can create me a second login to try. Perhaps the problem is RAS related and a new account will not have the problem.

---
Andrue Cope
Brackley, UK

Just because he could. RIP.
Standard User MHC
(sensei) Sun 24-Feb-13 12:06:12
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Re: A knowledge confirmation/correction please


[re: Andrue] [link to this post]
 
One problem is that the BT Techs are not taught everything that their test equipment can do or see.

Last week I spent time explaining the basics of VDSL to a BT Tech and what the graphs were showing ... Even if the knew what a Good/Average/OK/Bad graph will look like it could help.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User Chrysalis
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Mon 25-Feb-13 12:26:52
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Re: A knowledge confirmation/correction please


[re: Andrue] [link to this post]
 
Just logged into my HG gui and DLM has fiddled with the power again.

Now I got.

Downstream Upstream
Attainable rate (kbit/s) 85544 32158
SNR margin (dB) 9.8 14.4

BT Infinity 2 Since Dec 2012 - Estimate 65.9/20 - Attainable peak 110/36 - Current Sync 71/20

Edited by Chrysalis (Mon 25-Feb-13 12:27:05)

Standard User Andrue
(knowledge is power) Mon 25-Feb-13 12:57:46
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Re: A knowledge confirmation/correction please


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Chrysalis:
Just logged into my HG gui and DLM has fiddled with the power again.

Now I got.

Downstream Upstream
Attainable rate (kbit/s) 85544 32158
SNR margin (dB) 9.8 14.4
Yeah mine had an unusual resync event this morning at 6am. For the first time ever it went below 70Mb/s to 66Mb/s. However according to the modem the attainable rate is better:

Max: Upstream rate = 26774 Kbps, Downstream rate = 77716 Kbps
Path: 0, Upstream rate = 20000 Kbps, Downstream rate = 66369 Kbps

Down Up
SNR (dB): 6.1 15.1
Attn(dB): 0.0 0.0
Pwr(dBm): 12.4 6.3

I also got the chance to try an alternate logon and IP address which had the same problem. Unfortunately when I switched back to my correct login the fault had cleared so now we're stuck until April. But that shows it's not connected with my account but - as already known - getting a new session eventually clears it.

---
Andrue Cope
Brackley, UK

Just because he could. RIP.

Edited by Andrue (Mon 25-Feb-13 13:02:30)

Standard User Chrysalis
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Mon 25-Feb-13 13:33:12
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Re: A knowledge confirmation/correction please


[re: Andrue] [link to this post]
 
looking at my QLN its gone down but not by much, but even that slight drop has improved my D1 range a lot and added 14 meg of attainable sync.

I will post pics later of the changed graphs.

Hopefuly this change sticks.

Max: Upstream rate = 32863 Kbps, Downstream rate = 85360 Kbps
Path: 0, Upstream rate = 20000 Kbps, Downstream rate = 79999 Kbps

BT Infinity 2 Since Dec 2012 - Estimate 65.9/20 - Attainable peak 110/36 - Current Sync 71/20

Edited by Chrysalis (Mon 25-Feb-13 13:36:08)

Standard User Chrysalis
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Mon 25-Feb-13 17:14:52
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Re: A knowledge confirmation/correction please


[re: Andrue] [link to this post]
 
so basically new PPP session (but same sync) temporarily clears it. I think a engineer callout is pointless for that.

Incidently my line wasnt DLM, I rushed the analysis as I was busy.

The attainable jumped up this morning just before 10am, the line didnt resync, so not DLM. I manually resynced to get the 79999, the snrm change was sudden not gradual.Then sometime late afternoon the snrm went downwards again and left me on a 71/23 attainable. But I am still synced at 80/20 with now a quite low snr margin on the downstream. Error rate seems about 25% higher than with 6db margin. Which isnt a huge amount higher % wise.

As to why I had that jump I can only speculate, but does seem either someone turned their modem off during the day and I got some crosstalk relief or some device somewhere alongside my D side was temporarily turned off. I do have bitloading, snrm graphs etc. so when I do get time I will post them somewhere so others can see what changes, but in a different thread probably as I dont want to sidetrack yours.

BT Infinity 2 Since Dec 2012 - Estimate 65.9/20 - Attainable peak 110/36 - Current Sync 71/20
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