Wholesale Line Speed reduction

I hear the estimated line speeds from the BT Wholesale Checker have been slashed across the board. http://www.dslchecker.bt.com/adsl/adslchecker.welcome

Is this because of BT's network being overloaded due to the introduction of IPTV for BT Sport?

I checked two lines, one is the same, the other (mine) has lost 2 meg on the download estimate.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

Is this because of BT's network being overloaded due to the introduction of IPTV for BT Sport?

I doubt that, as that will all be at the IP level, the estimate I assumed was at the VDSL sync level.

Probably more data on the effects of Cross talk ?

Mine's slashed, 58->52, and upload even more by 19->13. Actual speed remains around 70/18.5.

I think it's the sync speed they give in the estimates; I wouldn't have thought IPTV would have had any impact at that level.
I guess they just want more headroom to wiggle out of complaints.

Mine has gone the opposite way 60 to 61.2mbps
I'll find out tomorrow afternoon how good the estimate was!

WBC FTTC Up to 53.5 Up to 13.2 -- Available
WBC ADSL 2+ Up to 7 -- 4.5 to 11 Available
WBC ADSL 2+ Annex M Up to 7 Up to 1 4.5 to 11 Available
ADSL Max Up to 5.5 -- 4 to 8 Available
WBC Fixed Rate 2 -- -- Available
Fixed Rate 2 -- -- Available

Mine as always been that i get up to 47 d/l and 8.5 u/l

My estimate has reduced from 55/18 to 53/16.

I suspect it is due to their experience of the effect of crosstalk, and it having more effect than they previously imagined - early adopters within a cabinet are still getting speeds much higher than even the original estimates.

Obviously BT's network can't be currently overloaded due to a TV channel that doesn't launch for another 3 months.

In any case, when it is running, the design for that should be using multicast, and the TV-Connect concept has (I recall reading) some large-ish amount of dedicated bandwidth allocated towards each cabinet, which looks to be on top of the ordinary backhaul bandwidth.

In reply to a post by WWWombat:

In any case, when it is running, the design for that should be using multicast, and the TV-Connect concept has (I recall reading) some large-ish amount of dedicated bandwidth allocated towards each cabinet, which looks to be on top of the ordinary backhaul bandwidth.

I'd be interested in how that could work, as I thought the Openreach FTTC design was deliberately ISP neutral - as otherwise Sky and TalkTalk and any other GEA ISP would be disadvantaged.

Also how can you intercept a PPPoE session (as used on all BTW services) at the cabinet, as the PPP session terminates at the chosen ISPs RAS ?

In reply to a post by jchamier:

I'd be interested in how that could work, as I thought the Openreach FTTC design was deliberately ISP neutral - as otherwise Sky and TalkTalk and any other GEA ISP would be disadvantaged.

You probably need to take a look at this Openreach document. It looks like they can support 4 CPs wanting to multicast.

Also how can you intercept a PPPoE session (as used on all BTW services) at the cabinet, as the PPP session terminates at the chosen ISPs RAS ?

It looks like you don't, and need to establish both IPoE and PPPoE connections between router and modem.

Mine has been slashed from 58.5/18 to 54.3/13.2.

:eek:

So I wonder how much of my reduction from 68 to 52.72 profile is due to the line fault I am currently experiencing, and how much is down to crosstalk as the cabinet ports fill up? By the amount of jumper wire accumulating outside the copper cab I think there has been a big take up!

Still, my upload speed hasn't changed to the extent predicted here.....

Edited by deleted (Mon 27-May-13 20:18:06)

mine still says the same, but if it has been slashed I think it most likely to reduce line fault reports is the reason.

My home speed estimate is still exactly the same, although I think the estimate for my works number has been increased slightly

Sometime last year I'm sure my home estimate dropped, then the next time I looked it was back at 57, which I've never got.

Bucking the general downward trend, my predicted speed has increased from 61.6/20 to;

WBC FTTC Up to 79.3 Up to 20 -- Available

Mines still the same as its ever been for my long line.

WBC FTTC Up to 29.6 Up to 5.7 -- Available
WBC ADSL 2+ Up to 3 -- 1.5 to 5.5 Available
ADSL Max Up to 2 -- 1.5 to 4.5 Available
WBC Fixed Rate 1 -- -- Available
Fixed Rate 1 -- -- Available
Other Offerings
Fibre Multicast -- -- -- Available

Mine has gone from 46.3 to 33!

I think what seems to have happened is BT did an update based on actual speeds out there now in the wild, whilst initially it would have been based on projected data from vendors.

What would be interesting to see is if those reporting a drop or rise if the new estimate is nearer their actual speed than the old estimate.

Edited by Chrysalis (Tue 28-May-13 12:23:51)

Ironically mine is almost exactly in the middle or my new and old estimate.

My estimate has reduced from 55/18 to 53/16.

I'm still syncing at 80/20.

Line speed won't be affected by release of IPTV, the checker gives sync rate.

The BT network should be multicasting the data so no super huge strain there either.

The only real issues will I imagine be for people who think their TV service will come down the phone line by magic and not take bandwidth away from their Internet activities.

My download estimate has gone from 58.1Mbps to 56.4Mbps. My actual sync speed remains at 71606, where it has been for over a month. Line length to cab is about 450m.

In reply to a post by Ignitionnet:

Line speed won't be affected by release of IPTV, the checker gives sync rate.

I thought the checker was supposed to give actual projected download speeds, not sync speeds.

Can't be - the houses closest to cabinets are getting 80/20 estimates, which we know becomes an IP profile of 77, and download speeds below that.

In reply to a post by WWWombat:

Can't be - the houses closest to cabinets are getting 80/20 estimates, which we know becomes an IP profile of 77, and download speeds below that.

OK, I didn't realise it actually showed 80/20. I just tried some addresses very near to my local cabinet and the highest I managed was 77.3.

In reply to a post by kasg:

OK, I didn't realise it actually showed 80/20. I just tried some addresses very near to my local cabinet and the highest I managed was 77.3.

That piqued my interest, as it suggested that the change in the checker may have been to alter speeds from sync-speeds to ip-profile-speeds.

However, I just checked the address I know gives 80/20 for my cab... and it still gives 80/20. The DSLAM's address also comes back with an 80/20 speed.

Mine's very recently moved from 30Mbps DS & 5.7Mbps US where it had been for many months & achieving almost 30 Mbps sync speed & 5.7Mbps US to :-

WBC FTTC Up to 23.3 Up to 5.4

I'm now actually achieving only 20.7Mbps sync speed DS & 4.8Mbps sync speed US, which has tailed off since December 2012 (along with deteriorated QLN & SNR graphs).

DS Ouput Power also seems to have reduced, showing much more fluctuation 24/7 since December.

EDIT: Previous US estimated now included

Edited by deleted (Tue 28-May-13 18:10:03)

Mine has gone from 76.8 to 68.8, the cab is out side my house.

no as it can give full sync estimations.

my sync is just over 66mbit with my estimate of 65.9.

Interesting now when I check properties near my cabinet none say 80 down but they do still say 20 up, as mine does also. The highest i can get is 74mbit down. For property one side of cabinet, the one the other side is estimated just 21mbit.

Mine has gone up from 16ish to 23.8Mbps, still not the speed I get though, synch at 37Mbps.....

It's improved from 34336kbps then ?

Yep, on a long line here (approx. 600m) so when the wife accidently switched off the modem the rate changed to 37ish.... I was getting almost 40Mbps at first but is now steady at 37Mbps... Still better than the estimated though....

MIne has gone from D/50 U/11 to D/35 U/5.9. do we know why this has changed?

Edited by deleted (Sun 02-Jun-13 14:14:40)

You did actually read the thread you just posted on, right?

Post deleted by bodcod

In reply to a post by WWWombat:

You did actually read the thread you just posted on, right?

Yes I have read the thread. and don't see a definitive answer. There are a lot of posts saying they suspect or guess this and that is the reason for the change, but nothing more.

Edited by deleted (Sun 02-Jun-13 19:04:13)

In reply to a post by bodcod:

Yes I have read the tread. and don't see a definitive answer. There are a lot of posts saying they suspect or guess this and that is the reason for the change, but nothing more.

Was just checking...

The reason the thread is full of such speculation is because no-one knows the answer. The people speculating are quite knowledgeable.

If we *knew* the answer, you'd have found the thread full of discussion about the answer, and whether we agreed that their solution was appropriate.

For my number the speed estimates for FTTC and ADSL have decreased,But the estimates for my line always have been way off the mark , Here's how ridiculous it is my case the property where i live comprises of a lock up shop at the front and 2 flats , it at one time was all one property, but the speed estimates for both shop and other flat are higher and closer to what speeds i have always got , All pairs are fed from the same d'side cable bundle, As for the e'side i can't say, but it's doubtful that the PCP would have many e side's terminating within it,

Edited by tommy45 (Mon 03-Jun-13 01:17:21)

In reply to a post by WWWombat:

In reply to a post by bodcod:

Yes I have read the tread. and don't see a definitive answer. There are a lot of posts saying they suspect or guess this and that is the reason for the change, but nothing more.

Was just checking...

The reason the thread is full of such speculation is because no-one knows the answer. The people speculating are quite knowledgeable.

If we *knew* the answer, you'd have found the thread full of discussion about the answer, and whether we agreed that their solution was appropriate.

I gathered no-one knows the answer hence In asked the question in the first place. There are people here that know a lot about these things, I was just looking to see if there was more of a official explanation that's all. I'll keep checking here for new posts to see if an answer comes up.

My estimate has just been well and truly slashed, was 57/20 now 36/6, I'm actually achieving 47/11. We're only 450 meters from the cab!

When I spoke to my neighbour last year he was getting speed test results of 55 Meg.

my estimate has gone from 61/20 to 58.9/20, However sync is 79999/20000. My attainable rate has fallen from around 101/35 to 90/34, due to increased crosstalk I guess.

Just checked my 450m line and the estimate has gone down again to 54.5/15.7. I am still sync'd at 71606/20000.

In reply to a post by R0NSKI:

My estimate has just been well and truly slashed, was 57/20 now 36/6, I'm actually achieving 47/11. We're only 450 meters from the cab!

When I spoke to my neighbour last year he was getting speed test results of 55 Meg.

yep mine has gone down now also.

it now estimates 59.3/20

curious, if someone rings with a fault and the isp quotes back estemated speeds, do they quote back new speeds from the checker (which werent applicable at point of sale) or have old estimates recorded.

Bound to be the new lower estimates.

I'm suprised they took 21mbps of my estimate, wonder if they are starting to use real world data now.

Just looked at mine. Now dropped a lot to 41.3Mbps and 6.5Mbps. It used to be somewhere in the 50s with upstream 11'ish. Sync's in my sig are current.

Just checked and mine as gone from 59.6/20 to 57.4/20.
I am syncing at 78/20.

I just checked an address that is right next to the cabinet, and the estimate was 66/20, now that's got to be wrong. They must be seriously cutting estimates to reduce complaints about speed.

I said before I think BT have deliberatly under estimated as a way of dealing with faults/crosstalk via managing expectations, but I guess some people have had damaging enough sync speeds to make those under estimates actually match or exceed sync speeds so they cutting them some more.

I also noticed on my cabinet no lines have a 80/20 estimate or even 77/20 estimate. the highest is low 70s. Its the first property fed from the cabinet.

We still seeing people report sync speeds even in this thread of over 20mbit higher than their estimate so it shows how low these estimates are.

Edited by Chrysalis (Fri 28-Jun-13 20:54:44)

Possibly the address nearest next to the cabinet isn't the closest by line length.

The address closest to my cab (the PCP is right next to the building) shows 80/20 and it's phone line crosses the main road 4 times between the PCP and the property. The PCP is on one side of the road and the fibre cab and pole are on the opposite side of the road.

Last week it was an 80/20 estimate.

On my cabinet, the nearest property remains an 80/20 estimate. As does the cabinet itself

In reply to a post by WWWombat:

As does the cabinet itself

How do you get an estimate for a cabinet

Just checked the cabinet and that does have an 80/20 estimate.

My estimates only changed in the last week, not when this thread started, so I wonder if given time, your nearest property's speed will be estimated lower.

In reply to a post by Alexir:

How do you get an estimate for a cabinet

You find the postcode for the cabinet, I use this tool to find the nearest post codes to the cabinet. If you move the map around, it will tell you the postcode for the map centre, but you may need to move it a few times to find a full post code.

Or you can enter just a road name and town into the Royal Mail website, and get a full list of addresses & post codes.

Then I use the address checker, and enter just the postcode and click submit. You should then get a list of addresses to choose from, and if you are lucky the PCP and/or the DSLAM. Sometimes I have not been able to locate either, so it can be a bit hit and miss, and I know of one PCP that is listed under the wrong postcode, or it certainly seems to be that way.

I can find DSLAM listed for cabinets that are not even physically installed, so I've taken that to mean that it is planned to be installed.

Edited by R0NSKI (Sat 29-Jun-13 08:21:51)

In reply to a post by R0NSKI:

I can find DSLAM listed for cabinets that are not even physically installed, so I've taken that to mean that it is planned to be installed.

I think the cabinet gets listed within the addresses because it needs a telephone line itself, for alarm & monitoring purposes when the broadband DSLAM is down. That's my guess, anyway.

Presumably BT's internal systems will only supply phone lines to places in their address database, so they add one... and I guess it has to be added before it can be ordered.

You can get entries in there that refer to building plots too, if people want a temporary line installed to such places.

I've seen all sorts of things listed such as pumping stations,, which I can understand having a dedicated phone line. But would the PCP have a dedicated line, as these are listed to.

My estimate is now 55.9/18, used to be 57.8 I think.

Max: Upstream rate = 32506 Kbps, Downstream rate = 89400 Kbps
Path: 0, Upstream rate = 10000 Kbps, Downstream rate = 39998 Kbps

Used to sync at full 80/20 when I had a product at that speed.

In reply to a post by R0NSKI:

But would the PCP have a dedicated line, as these are listed to.

There are others who would know better, but I could swear that I've seen a photo of a PCP with a box that looked awfully like a standard NTE.

In reply to a post by R0NSKI:

You find the postcode for the cabinet, I use this tool to find the nearest post codes to the cabinet. If you move the map around, it will tell you the postcode for the map centre, but you may need to move it a few times to find a full post code.

Or you can enter just a road name and town into the Royal Mail website, and get a full list of addresses & post codes.

Then I use the address checker, and enter just the postcode and click submit. You should then get a list of addresses to choose from, and if you are lucky the PCP and/or the DSLAM. Sometimes I have not been able to locate either, so it can be a bit hit and miss, and I know of one PCP that is listed under the wrong postcode, or it certainly seems to be that way.

I can find DSLAM listed for cabinets that are not even physically installed, so I've taken that to mean that it is planned to be installed.

Brilliant method! Now all we need is an automated tool to do this for a given postcode

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

Brilliant method! Now all we need is an automated tool to do this for a given postcode

The thought of screen scraping the entire BT database had crossed my mind before, but I suspect they'll get rather upset.

All you'd need is every UK post code and some code to submit, and then parse the returned HTML.

Very good tool indeed, using the tool i have found that a new build site that is only metres away from the cab that i am connected too were i am getting 78/20 from 300 metres away are surprisingly connected to a different cab and only capable of around 25/6 connection.

I pulled this data for 2 estates I was assisting with broadband a while ago, back when Wholesale first started exposing the cabinets, I worked out the homes passed on each cabinet with this.

The results were 'interesting'...

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

Brilliant method! Now all we need is an automated tool to do this for a given postcode

There is one. You can put the postcode into this service.

Hello all

My estimate was 62/16 when ordered in March

Now 52.7/15.7

I currently sync is 74.3/16.90


so alot better then the guessitmate

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

There is one. You can put the postcode into this service.

LOL. That's far too cheeky!

Unfortunatly that service is not working, too much wine last night!

As some have said They have reduced the estimated speeds for a lot of lines, purely as a way of reducing the number of speed faults they investigate When is a fault not a fault?
They BT have done this since day one, So by lowering the speed estimates the more likely any drop in speed won't be below this estimate based on no hard facts , and as Rev K says according to their own handbook
BT are supposed to regard a drop in sync of 25% as a fault , but they cry and try to use this bs estimate instead , BTOR seem to be making up their own rule set as they go along and ignoring rules that they made previously , This approach would go some way why some ISP's are relaying this BS to their customers when what is needed is more presure from the industry (ISP's) to get BTOR to do their job for once , instead of skerking away from it

The last comment on that article you linked to is quite enlightening, not only did cross talk affect his line, but he also had the power cut back when somebody else with a long line got connected.

That's what also happened on my 1000m long connection.

Downstream Power

Sync speed

Animated snapshot graph changes



Downstream Sync speed has gone from almost 30 Mbps that I had been achieving for 7 months or so to currently just over 20 Mbps since December 2012.

That's a lot more than 25% drop from my estimated 30 Mbps.

BT's response?
They simply lowered my estimated speed to 23.3 Mbps!!!!!!

Just re-checked my estimates to see if they had moved and to my surprise they have been lowered!

WBC FTTC Up to 21.8 Up to 5 -- Available

Previously 26.3 and 5.6, not sure when they were changed but I would like to know why and If I do report a fault is my line countered as 26.3 predicted as it was when I purchased the service?

At least my connection isn't classed as "Superfast" by estimate anymore, though I doubt I would be considered in the BDUK project anyhow.

Edited by deleted (Thu 04-Jul-13 21:26:44)

In reply to a post by Bald_Eagle1:

They simply lowered my estimated speed to 23.3 Mbps!!!!!!

They've lowered mine from 57 to 36, and that's at 450 meters.

In reply to a post by R0NSKI:

In reply to a post by Bald_Eagle1:

They simply lowered my estimated speed to 23.3 Mbps!!!!!!

They've lowered mine from 57 to 36, and that's at 450 meters.

thats really conservative, alcatel docs have vdsl2 averaging 50mbit at 500m (with crosstalk).

In reply to a post by R0NSKI:

They've lowered mine from 57 to 36, and that's at 450 meters.

That's low! For comparison...

I've got a whole heap of estimate from my old housing estate (but current estimates), and can say...

For houses 450 metres from the cabinet, the estimates vary between 47 and 56 Mbps

For houses with a 57ish (56-58) estimate, distances vary between 250m and 470m

For houses with a 36ish (35-37) estimates, distances vary between 550m and 675m (which is the highest distance and lowest speed on the estate).

That's 15 years old, and probably all copper with no aluminium.

In reply to a post by R0NSKI:

They've lowered mine from 57 to 36, and that's at 450 meters.

Have you noticed how much your stats have changed since September 2012?:-

RONSKI - Changed Stats

Hadn't really noticed, apart from I'm on fast path and got the best speed I've had in a long time.