FTTC - Slowdown over time

I was connected with Plusnet last September/October. I had a line fault to start with that caused some problems, but after that was sorted out I was able to get speeds of around 73/18 consistently.

According to the speedtest.net logs it started slowing down in November. I stopped doing regular speed tests after a while and just checked my sync speed to make sure it was still in the 70's, which it always was. Of the speed tests I did do though, it was stuck in the high 50's since December with a peak of 66Mb/s downstream at the end of June, with upstream still over 18Mb/s. I kept a closer eye on it since then and all July it's been between 48 and 52 down, and 16 up. In fact the upstream is pretty much exactly 16 no matter what server I test with and what time of day, almost as if I'm being capped at that.

I have raised a ticket with Plusnet and we are awaiting feedback from OR now. After reading some other threads, I'm wondering if this is just crosstalk? I've read that speeds can drop by 20Mb/s due to crosstalk. I did suggest this to Plusnet but they think it's too much of a drop. Their own test shows that there are no faults, and Interleaving is off.

Why does the sync speed show 71.6Mb/s if I cannot go above 52Mb/s? I know there is a delay before that number changes but it's been showing in the 70's since last year. The latency on the speed tests always shows an amazing 5ms if I pick the right server to test on.

Any thoughts appreciated please.

[edit] The BT Wholesale test today shows max achievable downstream speed as 54.19Mb/s, max up as 20Mb/s. I guess that is going to be more current than the 71.6Mb/s that Plusnet show. Still, it's changed a lot since it was installed and a couple of months after.[/edit]

Edited by deleted (Sat 20-Jul-13 10:27:58)

You seem to be assuming that the figure that shows on the Plusnet portal is the sync speed - it isn't and can effectively be ignored. It is supposed to be Plusnet's copy of the IP profile, but in your case it clearly hasn't updated, since your IP profile is 54.19Mb/s. As the Plusnet figure is higher than this, it is having no effect on your speed so you can ignore it. From your IP profile, your sync speed is 55980 or thereabouts.

Edit: My Plusnet profile shows 72.4Mb/s and has done for ages. My sync speed has been 71606 for the past few months and my IP profile 69.31Mb/s. As the Plusnet figure is higher than either I am perfectly happy with it.

Edited by kasg (Sat 20-Jul-13 12:19:56)

I'm not assuming it - I'm reading what Plusnet say, which is that it is my sync speed. Like I said before though, I know there is a delay in that updating, although I agree it does seem to be stuck. I'm surprised the tech guy I spoke to didn't update it.

That aside, my speed has still dropped a fair bit but the more I read other people's experiences, the more I think it's down to crosstalk.

It was never a copy of the sync speed, but the IP profile, which is a bit lower. If I were you I wouldn't want it updated as it would be of no benefit. You could be right about crosstalk but it does sound excessive and should, I think, be investigated.

Ok I appreciate your thoughts on this Kasg, thank you.

Update...

Openreach have visited and are at a loss to explain my problem. He did several tests and was very thorough and cannot find anything wrong with my line.

From 73/18Mbps I am now on 52/16Mbps. It is not down to the DLM and according to the engineer, not crosstalk either. I am simply running at the maximum speed my line is capable of.

I am awaiting a call from my provider about it, but would appreciate some help with where to go next before I speak to them.

In reply to a post by Zackary:

I am awaiting a call from my provider about it, but would appreciate some help with where to go next before I speak to them.

Do you have a TBBQM graph? Or some other way to measure jitter?

IT could be just increased usage of FTTC on your exchange and cabinet but the drop seems on the high side for that

In reply to a post by Andrue:

Do you have a TBBQM graph? Or some other way to measure jitter?

I haven't been provided with such a graph by my provider. The pingtest.net site does a test for jitter and shows that I have no measurable jitter. That is only a test over a few seconds of course so I'm not sure how valid that is. I just did that test again and it shows 4ms, which it reckons is still excellent.

In reply to a post by Bob_s2:

IT could be just increased usage of FTTC on your exchange and cabinet but the drop seems on the high side for that

I thought the same. The engineer said that all new connections in the cabinet won't interfere with mine anyway as they work from the bottom up with new connections, whereas my connection, being the first, was made at the top. Well I'm not convinced by that to be honest but that's what he said.

It is the cross talk in the cable bundles leaving the cabinet that are the issue and can reduce speeds.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

It is the cross talk in the cable bundles leaving the cabinet that are the issue and can reduce speeds.

Despite the engineer being excellent and thorough, he didn't seem to know what I meant by cross talk. He also mentioned my distance from the exchange being a reason why my speed isn't very good. I know this isn't the case and did tell him, but he didn't agree so I didn't push it. The last engineer to visit when I had a fault after FTTC was first installed thought the same thing about my distance from the exchange.

I wonder if Openreach have engineers who are just as helpful but also have knowledge of the way FTTC works.

tbbqm is actually a free tool we provider on thinkbroadband

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/ping

It runs 24/7 and creates graphs like
My Broadband Ping

The rise in latency was down to a reboot of a router where its wireless side had died, and the lots of yellow is me using the connection a lot during the afternoon.

I have had issues where I have had extremely bad speed issues for certain periods which seem to just go away as quickly as they appear..

I must say that the PN team are always on the case if/when I have anything to question about anything relating to my service.. Especially on this forum where the PN staff must monitor as they get back to you almost straight away if any users express any problems relating to PN services.

I have had speeds from the BTW speedtest down to as low as 14.4/14Mbps (approx) and then by the time I have completed the reporting of the problem the issue had almost gone completely away except for a - (minus) 3Mbps drop off my BTW "Max Attainable Estimate" which did originally show 73.3Mbps now its 70Mbps but that's just nit picking.. My official speed estimated for which my line could handle on the ADSL Availability Checker showed: 32Mbps / 6.5Mbps Well this was completely under estimated and almost doubled upon request for IP Profile to be updated..

Anyway, back on topic
I don't know if you have tried this but I found that after 21days of uptime I just done a quick disconnect/reconnect through my router, thinking this may help to clear the line (or whatever) in fact when I did reconnect my ping time had gone from the 25ms mark down to 10-18ms mark and shortly after my speeds went back to 'normal'

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

tbbqm is actually a free tool we provider on thinkbroadband

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/ping

It runs 24/7 and creates graphs like
My Broadband Ping

The rise in latency was down to a reboot of a router where its wireless side had died, and the lots of yellow is me using the connection a lot during the afternoon.

That looks excellent, thanks for the tip, I've just set that up for myself.

I have set a monitor up now and will keep an eye on that. I don't have a static IP unfortunately and I don't know how long it stays the same, but it's the best I can do. Hopefully it'll stay the same long enough to give me some decent information.

In reply to a post by Zackary:

That looks excellent, thanks for the tip, I've just set that up for myself.

The reason I mention it is because in the past i have experienced severely reduced throughput whilst connected at a decent speed. My quality graphs would show an increase in latency:

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/ping/share/1ae25650a99...

You can see the sudden increase in latency starting at 4pm. It used to happen every 60 days but appears not to have happened since I changed my router. There's a bit of a [censored]? about that given that the effect was present when the router was taken out of the equation and basically once started it took four or five days to clear regardless of what anyone did.

BT once suggested it might have been a 'profile mismatch' but tbh I don't think anyone ever knew what it really was. I just hope it stays fixed

In reply to a post by majika2007:

I have had issues where I have had extremely bad speed issues for certain periods which seem to just go away as quickly as they appear..

http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/fibre/t/4231998-the...

/me shrugs

In reply to a post by Andrue:

In reply to a post by Zackary:

That looks excellent, thanks for the tip, I've just set that up for myself.

The reason I mention it is because in the past i have experienced severely reduced throughput whilst connected at a decent speed. My quality graphs would show an increase in latency:

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/ping/share/1ae25650a99...

You can see the sudden increase in latency starting at 4pm. It used to happen every 60 days but appears not to have happened since I changed my router. There's a bit of a [censored]? about that given that the effect was present when the router was taken out of the equation and basically once started it took four or five days to clear regardless of what anyone did.

BT once suggested it might have been a 'profile mismatch' but tbh I don't think anyone ever knew what it really was. I just hope it stays fixed

I see what you mean by the spikes. I can already see on my graph that there might be too much yellow, but I need to leave it running a while longer before I get any decent information from it.

I have another router that I shall try if the spikes look bad. Although I need the Gigabit ports of my current router, but I can go without for a day I guess while I test things out.

In reply to a post by Zackary:

I have another router that I shall try if the spikes look bad. Although I need the Gigabit ports of my current router, but I can go without for a day I guess while I test things out.

Well if the cause of my issues was the router it's worth noting that simply swapping the router out or connecting my laptop directly didn't immediately resolve the issue. It's more like my old router '[censored] off' BT's network and it took several days for things to settle back down.

Which frankly is rather bizarre which is why I remain sceptical :-/

In reply to a post by Zackary:

I have set a monitor up now and will keep an eye on that. I don't have a static IP unfortunately and I don't know how long it stays the same, but it's the best I can do. Hopefully it'll stay the same long enough to give me some decent information.

Your PlusNet IP address can change quite frequently. I suggest you delete that monitor, then go into your Member Centre >> Connection Settings >> Static IP and follow the instructions.

It is a one-off cost of £5, the order completes within seconds, then a Disconnect/Reconnect through the 582n GUI connects you with the new static IP address. Then set up a new BQM .

Having a BQM set up on a dynamic IP address that you then lose messes up the next person to get that IP address.

RobertoS - Ok that's done. I would have setup a static IP previously if I had realised it was a one-off cost of just a fiver. So I'm glad you pointed that out!

A fair few of us put the "live" link in our sigs as well. It's also the quickest way to have a look at your own.

It's not looking too healthy ATM RobertoS!

Simon.

Dead right!

It started 24 June, and occurs at the times someone somewhere will have their TV on. I'm trying to screw up the courage to go and ask our neighbour if she got a new one then.

Asking the question doesn't worry me, but what to do if the answer is "Yes" is awkward .

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

A fair few of us put the "live" link in our sigs as well. It's also the quickest way to have a look at your own.

Good plan, I've got the link in my sig now. Looking pretty good so far don't you think? I wish it wasn't to be honest as I need a way to explain what's going on with my connection.

In reply to a post by Zackary:

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

It is the cross talk in the cable bundles leaving the cabinet that are the issue and can reduce speeds.

Despite the engineer being excellent and thorough, he didn't seem to know what I meant by cross talk. He also mentioned my distance from the exchange being a reason why my speed isn't very good. I know this isn't the case and did tell him, but he didn't agree so I didn't push it. The last engineer to visit when I had a fault after FTTC was first installed thought the same thing about my distance from the exchange.

I wonder if Openreach have engineers who are just as helpful but also have knowledge of the way FTTC works.

Problem is its hard to tell if they really undertrained or just playing dumb, probably easier to play dumb then acknowledge real reasons and then refuse to do anything. I had an engineer who told me a 80meg sync is not possible on FTTC.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Dead right!

It started 24 June, and occurs at the times someone somewhere will have their TV on. I'm trying to screw up the courage to go and ask our neighbour if she got a new one then.

Asking the question doesn't worry me, but what to do if the answer is "Yes" is awkward .

If she says yes ask her if she had problems with her broadband lately.

If she says yes then the next bit is easier, suggest to her that the new tv might be the cause (as you are affected also) and that she should try temporarily to stop using it, making sure its completely unplugged from power. I assume if confirmed an issue it shouldnt be too diffilcult to get the tv swapped out under warranty. Of course if she becomes stubborn then a financial push might be needed, but also be aware, it may not be a tv at fault, it might not even be local noise.

Good idea, but I would be 99.99% sure she does not have broadband, nor dialup. Age, circumstances and background indicate this.

Edited by RobertoS (Fri 26-Jul-13 21:10:29)

I can see you're having a few issues RobertoS, from looking at your graph. I hope you get that sorted out quickly.

From looking at my own graph (in sig) I guess it's looking pretty good so no need to carry on with the monitor. What do you think please?

In reply to a post by Zackary:

From looking at my own graph (in sig) I guess it's looking pretty good

That's even better than mine (also in sig).

so no need to carry on with the monitor. What do you think please?

Mine has run continuously since tbb made them available... it comes in handy on occasion to spot a growing problem, changes in your line (eg interleave being applied/removed), dropped connections overnight etc. And it can be useful to see if a sudden problem is peculiar to your connection (shout at ISP) or shared by many others (shrug shoulders and wait for BT to get their act together).

It's using tbb's resources not yours, so I'd suggest you leave it running

Thanks Bill.

I'm just a little bit nervous using those resources non-stop, tiny though they may be, if I don't need them. Maybe I'll give it a few more days and then will stop it. I only have it running as a step to try and diagnose my current speed issues, but if it doesn't show anything up after a few days it's unlikely it ever will.

I agree with Bill. The point of the BQM is to show up both growing issues and a record if something is suddenly found to be wrong.

For example, I had no issues for over two years, other than cross-talk slowing my speed a few times and interleaving being applied once and for all but varying occasionally.

Suddenly I started getting very slow loading speeds when browsing. To the extent that Kelly on PlusNet, whose team monitors many things and in particular this page, contacted me about my huge packet loss before I had thought of even checking my BQM myself.

Using the history of the graphs, which tbb hold, I quickly tracked back to the date it started, so I know exactly what to ask my neighbour. Even to the level of checking if she watched the TV in the day yesterday, (as it has never occurred in the afternoon before), and whether she went out this evening.

Leave it running !

Ok well I'll leave it for a while but not too long as I don't want to use their resources for no reason. A few days is adequate I think, in my particular situation.

Just to update my situation, I have spoken to my provider (Plusnet) and the conclusion is that there is probably nothing wrong. I knew they would say that, but in all fairness I'm not sure what else they can say. He said that the speed can drop due to cross talk, which of course I know, but he agreed it's dropped more than expected.

Anyway, he sees it as a red flag rather than an actual problem, and if the sync speed drops below 50Mpbs then to get in touch and they'll take things further. I'm happy with that.

Thanks for everyone's comments and help.

I would like to use the monitor but why does it have to be IP based? Why can't I set a dyndns address instead that will always have the current IP? I do not want a static address.

since you never know when problems may start I would keep the monitor on.

question to site owners, but one reason maybe they dont want to be doing dns lookups everytime a check is done. it also could be to (try to) enforce the static ip policy.

Resources and limited time, the human body does have to sleep now and then