How good are IDNET?

I see very little discussion of IDNET's fibre offering here. Has anyone had any experience with them? What are they like? I'm thinking of signing up for their 200GB cap product (though I really prefer uncapped broadband), but their prices are quite hefty.

They're a fairly small ISP, there isn't much discussion about them because there aren't often problems with them!

Quite a few here use them, including me, and I'd agree they're not cheap but you get what you pay for in this life.

Have you looked at their user forum, here?

(It's hosted by IDNet but run entirely by users, and criticism of the company isn't banned )

I was with IDNet for many years and had few issues apart from the occasional e-mail outage. I am now with Zen and I am very pleased with the service that Zen provides. I never see a speed drop and their network is very robust. I am now on Zen Fibre Unlimited. Look at the Zen forum for more information. The downside is that Zen do not offer IMAP or IPv6 but neither of these omissions are game changers.

In reply to a post by lexden16:

I was with IDNet for many years and had few issues apart from the occasional e-mail outage. I am now with Zen and I am very pleased with the service that Zen provides. I never see a speed drop and their network is very robust. I am now on Zen Fibre Unlimited. Look at the Zen forum for more information. The downside is that Zen do not offer IMAP or IPv6 but neither of these omissions are game changers.

I agree as I heard that Zen say there won't be any banded profile or any Zen IP Profile at their side. They leave it at default at 78Mb and let BT System controlled ip profile on it own. Far better than Plusnet which they had their own ip profile on their end to match BT one. (these sometimes doesn't updated for long times) If FTTC come to my area, I am consider switch from plusnet ADSL2+ to zen fibre unlimited because I like zen leave it 78Mb default profile and let BT control it own.

Edited by adslmax (Mon 23-Sep-13 11:06:49)

In reply to a post by adslmax:

In reply to a post by lexden16:

I was with IDNet for many years and had few issues apart from the occasional e-mail outage. I am now with Zen and I am very pleased with the service that Zen provides. I never see a speed drop and their network is very robust. I am now on Zen Fibre Unlimited. Look at the Zen forum for more information. The downside is that Zen do not offer IMAP or IPv6 but neither of these omissions are game changers.

I agree as I heard that Zen say there won't be any banded profile or any Zen IP Profile at their side. They leave it at default at 78Mb and let BT System controlled ip profile on it own. Far better than Plusnet which they had their own ip profile on their end to match BT one. (these sometimes doesn't updated for long times) If FTTC come to my area, I am consider switch from plusnet ADSL2+ to zen fibre unlimited because I like zen leave it 78Mb default profile and let BT control it own.

What is Zen fibre unlimited? I don't see anything about unlimited on their site. Is that the kind of unlimited where they cap you to 200gb?

They do have unlimited fibre now. It hidden on their site.

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/news/6044-unlimited-fi...

Not that hidden just follow the links

In reply to a post by adslmax:

They do have unlimited fibre now. It hidden on their site.

Hmm, why is it hidden I wonder? Maybe they're just floating the idea but they will abandon it...

Read the thread on the Zen forum on this site. It is not clear yet whether Zen intends to offer this option to new customers. Give Zen Sales a ring: they are always very helpful.

PS there are also articles about this offer on TBB's main page and at ISPReview.

Edited by lexden16 (Mon 23-Sep-13 17:05:37)

I think it time to call plusnet to abolish stupid ip profile at their end. No need for that. Let BT control profile at BT system and Zen are correct when I spoken to them and they say they don't need to match bt profile at their end, what the point for. They rather let BT system do it own for customer's end. That's the reason I hate plusnet profile at their end as they took much longer to updated to match bt end and sometimes it doesn't updated it and getting fed up of asking them to adjusted it for me.

Edited by adslmax (Mon 23-Sep-13 11:20:00)

Fibre Unlimited seems very hidden on Zen's site. Could somebody who has found it post a link, please?

I doubt that, it is a case of judging interest levels, and keeping demand within a level they can cope with.

In reply to a post by StephenTodd:

Fibre Unlimited seems very hidden on Zen's site. Could somebody who has found it post a link, please?

Give them a call, they will put u on unlimited fibre without a phone. They won't put on their site (it hidden) to stop all the bay boys jump to zen!

In reply to a post by jez9999:

I see very little discussion of IDNET's fibre offering here. Has anyone had any experience with them? What are they like? I'm thinking of signing up for their 200GB cap product (though I really prefer uncapped broadband), but their prices are quite hefty.

Within the limitations imposed by BT's wholesale offering they are very good. When it's working (which is most of the time) it runs flat out. They also have dual stack IPv6 for those who want it.

Their technical support isn't really 24/7 (only the really noddy people are there out of hours) and sometimes you have to push a bit to get through to someone technical. But I've known a lot worse and I can't really blame an ISP for wanting to triage calls before taking up the time of the more expensive support experts.

Edit: Saturday evening for me:

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/button/13797...

No congestion in sight and that's the way it usually is.

Edited by Andrue (Mon 23-Sep-13 11:33:48)

In reply to a post by adslmax:

In reply to a post by StephenTodd:

Fibre Unlimited seems very hidden on Zen's site. Could somebody who has found it post a link, please?

Give them a call, they will put u on unlimited fibre without a phone.

Even if you're not an existing customer?

When I moved to FTTC from O2 LLU ADSL2+ I went on IDNet Lite, mainly because of its high reputation. I paid a year up front as that gave a month's discount.

At the end of the year I decided that the price, (on LITE, remember), compared to PlusNet and BT Retail couldn't possibly be worth it, and in the end switched to PlusNet.

I have no regrets at all, a much lower cost per month, and an unlimited package.

If I were to leave PlusNet, the only two alternatives I would seriously consider (at the moment) would be BT Retail and Sky. Seeing as I have a pathological dislike of the Murdoch empire that would probably mean BT Retail.

Edited by RobertoS (Mon 23-Sep-13 13:14:24)

Will never touch Murdoch Sky Broadband.

I suspect the real thing to remember with IDNet is that (like everyone who uses phone lines for broadband) they use the OpenReach network from the exchange, and they use BT wholesale from the exchange to link to their network. So whilst their network is fine, nay excellent, the benefit to you will be limited if the local loop if poor or when there are issues on the regional wholesale network or at the handover points to IDNet's network, both of which happen. Those that are achieving 76Mbps or so are well-located on the OpenReach network and suffering no problems on the wholesale part of the network. IDNet have no magic wand to deal with BT.

I'm content as I sit comfortably within the data caps, but solely on value for money for residential use and if I could get anywhere near the caps I'd have second thoughts. I'd imagine the absence of real time data monitoring (apparently, only daily in arrear) could be irritating if you run it close to the wire. I get increasingly tired of same old content so it's a declining problem!

In reply to a post by smurf46:

I suspect the real thing to remember with IDNet is that (like everyone who uses phone lines for broadband) they use the OpenReach network from the exchange, and they use BT wholesale from the exchange to link to their network

A point of clarification.

Probably irrelevant to the OP, but Sky and TalkTalk fibre do not use the BT Wholesale network for transport from the exchange to their own networks. Openreach GEA is handed over to them at the exchange, just as it is to BT Wholesale for other ISPs.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

A point of clarification.

Probably irrelevant to the OP, but Sky and TalkTalk fibre do not use the BT Wholesale network for transport from the exchange to their own networks. Openreach GEA is handed over to them at the exchange, just as it is to BT Wholesale for other ISPs.

Zen have deployed their own MSANs in about 200 exchanges this year, which are used for GEA FTTx backhaul, as well as EFM and leased line services. Zen use BT Wholesale WBMC in locations where they don't have a MSAN.

The pricing for Zen FTTx is the same whether you are on Zen backhaul or BTw WBMC.

It is likely that Zen's deployment of their own network has made it cost effective for them to offer unlimited products.


Edit to add: Zen customers can see whether they are on Zen backhaul or WBMC on the "View Line Data" screen in the customer portal. In my case, it says "Your current line technology is WBMC."

Edited by deleted (Mon 23-Sep-13 15:51:04)

I knew they had a few LLU'ed exchanges, and were adding to them. I didn't realise they had added that many, or that they had GEA-enabled an the ones that are LLU. Good news!

As you say, that might be how they can now offer unlimited, at what looks like a competitive price. Might be a better spec for the OP than IDNet.

INCORRECT.

Zen has not installed 200+ MSAN's which implies SMPF or MPF LLU

It has deployed a MPLS network with the advantage that by utilising a GEA fibre link (£2000 one off cost) it can move FTTC/P customers data off onto its own network.

The MPLS network by grabbing from the exchange makes offering low contention business grade services easier, and reduced costs allows for the unlimited GEA products for its SME/prosumer customers.

That's interesting Andrew. I had to go and google MPLS , including Zen MPLS.

I can see the FTTC/P getting onto that at the exchange, via GEA (isn't a GEA link £20,000, not £2,000?), and I assume it's far cheaper than true unbundling.

Neat! Any other ISPs doing it, such as Entanet? They only seem to have it running from the BTW nodes, so able to pick up all traffic not just FTTx.

http://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/products/pricin...

You can see some in the Falmouth Exchange http://blog.thinkbroadband.com/wp-content/uploads/20... the yellow fibres on left hand side. The busy cluster is the incoming from the cabinets and FTTP in Falmouth and surrounding areas. Well strictly speaking the incoming are on this side http://blog.thinkbroadband.com/wp-content/uploads/20...

As for other providers, not had reason to mention any in the news and its the sort of thing I'd cover so we can refer back to it in 5 years time.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

INCORRECT.

Zen has not installed 200+ MSAN's which implies SMPF or MPF LLU

Zen have described their deployment as MSANs, though I should have qualified that description by saying that the multiple services offered are FTTx, EFM and leased lines, all backed by an MPLS network. Zen are not using this system to offer ADSL2+ using SMPF or MPF.

Apologies for misleading anyone by not qualifying the term MSAN in my earlier post.


Zen did LLU something like four exchanges, but never developed that network further. It seems unlikely that they will make any further investment in LLU ADSL2+.

Yeah it is a game of definitions

MSAN is a nice short acronym compared to rack mounted hardware that cannot accept a wide range of input and output technologies but is not LLU hardware in the sense people understand.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

MSAN is a nice short acronym compared to rack mounted hardware that cannot accept a wide range of input and output technologies but is not LLU hardware in the sense people understand.

I suspect the hardware could do LLU, but Zen aren't paying BTOR to connect their equipment to the POTS cabling; only to act as a router, perhaps with RAS services built in to terminate all those PPPoE sessions.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

I suspect the hardware could do LLU, but Zen aren't paying BTOR to connect their equipment to the POTS cabling; only to act as a router, perhaps with RAS services built in to terminate all those PPPoE sessions.

We don't know which MSANs Zen have bought, but I, too, expect that they can be fitted with ADSL2+ line cards and possibly POTS line cards. However, I suspect the economics of Zen buying (or leasing) and fitting the relevant hardware doesn't make sense.

This 200 exchange deployment is focused on high speed (FTTx) and high margin (EFM and leased line) services. All the exchanges have FTTx available. The additional cost of Zen paying BT Openreach to provide an FTTx connection over Zen providing an ADSL2+ port on their MSAN and paying BT Openreach for SMPF is unlikely to be much, and will be more than cancelled out by the higher retail price for the FTTx service sold to the end user.

Zen would also incur additional support and training costs if they launched SMPF and/or MPF services. It is debatable whether they could recover the costs of setting up the support infrastructure considering the relatively small proportion of exchanges with a Zen MSAN.

In reply to a post by David_W:

This 200 exchange deployment is focused on high speed (FTTx) and high margin (EFM and leased line) services. All the exchanges have FTTx available. The additional cost of Zen paying BT Openreach to provide an FTTx connection over Zen providing an ADSL2+ port on their MSAN and paying BT Openreach for SMPF is unlikely to be much, and will be more than cancelled out by the higher retail price for the FTTx service sold to the end user.

I think there are charges for each connection for SMPF, whereas for FTTC there is only the GEA links (multiples of) that need to be fitted. Potentially a one-off charge (maybe if using 10 GigE).

Zen would also incur additional support and training costs if they launched SMPF and/or MPF services. It is debatable whether they could recover the costs of setting up the support infrastructure considering the relatively small proportion of exchanges with a Zen MSAN.

I was assuming all 200 Zen PoPs had an MSAN, unlike the 4 LLU exchanges which had old style DSLAM kit?

Why are you both calling the Zen exchange kit MSANs when Andrew has categorically said it isn't? I find that very confusing, even if in the absence of any other term you find it convenient .

Edit - looks like the kit is Label Edge Routers (LERs), linked to from the Wiki description of MPLS. The GEA link going straight to the LER.

Edited by RobertoS (Mon 23-Sep-13 20:13:16)

In reply to a post by jchamier:

In reply to a post by David_W:

This 200 exchange deployment is focused on high speed (FTTx) and high margin (EFM and leased line) services. All the exchanges have FTTx available. The additional cost of Zen paying BT Openreach to provide an FTTx connection over Zen providing an ADSL2+ port on their MSAN and paying BT Openreach for SMPF is unlikely to be much, and will be more than cancelled out by the higher retail price for the FTTx service sold to the end user.

I think there are charges for each connection for SMPF, whereas for FTTC there is only the GEA links (multiples of) that need to be fitted. Potentially a one-off charge (maybe if using 10 GigE).

Having a GEA Etherlink (one-off charge of £2000 plus VAT per GigE) is all well and good - but it doesn't get an end-user connected. For that, you either need a BT Openreach FTTx connection, or BT Openreach SMPF/MPF and a ADSL2+ line card port.

My guess is that it isn't much cheaper for Zen to procure an ADSL2+ line card port and pay BT Openreach for SMPF or MPF than to pay BT Openreach for FTTx. I'd expect a business / enthusiast ISP like Zen to focus on FTTx where available, and their margins on FTTx are likely better than for ADSL2+. Moreover, the savings on BT Wholesale WBMC backhaul charges will be smaller for the (average) ADSL2+ customer than the (average) FTTx customer, because the faster FTTx connections are likely to be used more.


Only Zen know the economics of the various options. It's possible we will see LLU ADSL2+ from Zen using their new network, but I have my doubts. I think Zen are more likely to invest in enhancing the footprint of their network rather than in ADSL2+ line cards.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

In reply to a post by David_W:

Zen would also incur additional support and training costs if they launched SMPF and/or MPF services. It is debatable whether they could recover the costs of setting up the support infrastructure considering the relatively small proportion of exchanges with a Zen MSAN.

I was assuming all 200 Zen PoPs had an MSAN, unlike the 4 LLU exchanges which had old style DSLAM kit?

The ADSL2+ customers on 200 exchanges that all support FTTx will likely be relatively small proportion of Zen's overall ADSL2+ user base. How many exchanges are there in total?

See my edit to this post.

From what I've been reading, ADSL2+ on Zen's MPLS network seems not to be involved.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Why are you both calling the Zen exchange kit MSANs when Andrew has categorically said it isn't? I find that very confusing, even if in the absence of any other term you find it convenient .

Because, as Andrew said, it's a matter of definitions.

Zen call the kit they've installed MSANs, and that is an accurate description - it offers multiple services. It's quite likely that these MSANs could offer DSL ports with the appropriate line cards - but Zen has chosen not to offer LLU ADSL2+ using this kit.


The problem is with the overloading of the term MSAN. In the 20CN days, we got used to talking about DSLAMs. Come 21CN and LLU ADSL2+, we started calling about the exchange end of an ADSL/ADSL2/ADSL2+ circuit an MSAN, because the new generation of equipment used was capable of offering multiple services from one device.

As networks continue to evolve, we need to leave behind the notion that an MSAN in a phone exchange necessarily offers ADSL2+ ports.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Edit - looks like the kit is Label Edge Routers (LERs), linked to from the Wiki description of MPLS. The GEA link going straight to the LER.

The Zen kit may well be doing be more than a LER.

Zen offer various VoIP services, both to consumers and businesses. It's possible they're using these new network devices to connect their VoIP core to the legacy PSTN at some of the exchanges (which I guess is still done using SDH, after BT abandoned the 21CN voice concept).

It may be that Zen selected exchange hardware that gave them the option of fitting ADSL2+ and/or POTS line cards in the future if the economics of offering these services using SMPF/MPF is favourable.

It's possible Zen are providing EFM (one of the services they've announced using their new network) using multiple MPFs and EFM line cards in their MSAN rather than leasing a pricey EFM circuit from BT Openreach.


I'm sure there's someone here who can offer a better insight than I can as to the advantages and disadvantages of deploying modern MSANs in phone exchanges compared to other available hardware.

It's so that they can prioritise traffic properly on their network. Zen etc don't do QoS in this manner.

I'm sure there is a reason why punters would want to pay nigh on double what the Big Boys are doing unlimited and unshaped for, for a 200GB hard capped service.

I just can't think of it right now.

In reply to a post by partial:

for a 200GB hard capped service.

It's not hard capped. All that happens if you go over it is that you pay for the extra usage, there's no throttling or anything else applied to your line.

Ouch! So overrun to 250GB on the 200GB package is ninety five quid of your tax paid take home that month!

There's an RSS feed to tell you what your usage is to date, as well as the account portal, and if your trend shows signs of going over you get an email with the details.

So yes, if you're still stupid enough to go 50GB over your allowance then you pay for it (at £1/GB compared to Zen's £1.52/GB).

In reply to a post by Ignitionnet:

It's so that they can prioritise traffic properly on their network. Zen etc don't do QoS in this manner.

Ummm.

Zen may not hold a copy IP Profile, but:-

Class of Service

Traffic is managed across the network by assigning applications to traffic classes. Zen�s IP VPN solution offers six Classes of Service (CoS) with each having its own level of service priority and associated Service Level Agreement (SLA). Applications are
typically allocated as follows:

Class Service Priority and Applications

1 IP telephony
2 Video Conferencing / Media Streaming / Business Critical Applications
3 VoIP call signalling and Business Critical Application, e.g. Citrix
4 Business Critical Application, e.g. SAP
5 Business Critical Application / Bulk Data Transfer
6 Standard traffic, e.g. email / Internet traffic etc

Looks remarkably like PlusNet's classifications to me .

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Looks remarkably like PlusNet's classifications to me .

That's the IP VPN product, nothing to do with residential or business broadband.


From: http://www.zen.co.uk/business/leased-lines-and-ipvpn...

Our IP VPN service equips your business with a private fully managed Wide Area Network (WAN) which guarantees the performance of your voice, multimedia and application traffic.

But it is to do with their MPLS network which is apparently being used at an increasing number of exchanges to provide FTTC for residential and business customers.

Are you sure it isn't applied in the same way as PlusNet's for non MPLS customers?

Edited by RobertoS (Mon 23-Sep-13 22:50:45)

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

But it is to do with their MPLS network which is apparently being used at an increasing number of exchanges to provide FTTC for residential and business customers.

Are you sure it isn't applied in the same way as PlusNet's for non MPLS customers?

This shows a fundamental misunderstanding of how this technology works and implies a blind copy/paste earlier on.

I'll be back in a bit to explain if someone hasn't already.

Err - no!

I realised, (hence the wording of my post), that the specific prioritisation methodology of MPLS will not be the same as the PlusNet one used for bog standard OR/BTW FTTC, but the existence of the classification system could very easily mean similar exists within it.

If the company has thought through the need for serious business use through MPLS, don't you think there is just the teeniest little chance they have applied an equivalent system for all their WBMC products? If PlusNet can do it, Zen certainly can.

Or do you have inside information to the contrary.

Importantly, even if this QoS system is only applied to the business VPN customers, that means it is seen as a benefit. Logically therefore, PlusNet's system should also be seen as a benefit.

Seeing as you appear to be in nit-picking critical mode, rather than system logic thinking mode, I have to say I was quite surprised at your description of Plusnet's IP Profile copying as being an essential part of QoS.

Right.

The CoS as sold on the IP VPN service is based around traffic marked at the customer premises by a local router / firewall. Most likely the Fortigate that Zen provide as a managed service doesn't 'do' MPLS but traffic is encapsulated by the first hop on the Zen network after the firewall.

When an access list or maybe even a DPI rule is matched the firewall will mark traffic with the relevant DSCP bits to mark the traffic as one of the 6 classes, this marking will then be used to assess how to handle the packet throughout the Zen MPLS network until it's popped out of the MPLS cloud at the remote side, or out of MPLS and onto the public Internet.

Note this only applies upstream as far as Internet traffic goes, the traffic coming in from the Internet will be unmarked as there's nothing there to mark it.

The Plusnet network uses Procera DPI kit to mark and police traffic in between the BT Wholesale network and their own. They require a limit on each connection so that they can properly prioritise traffic when they deliver it to end users without allowing the downstream on the connection to saturate.

CoS / QoS on an IP VPN or leased line isn't uncommon at all. It's essential to reliably running VoIP and other real time applications on links which also carry bulk traffic, however it's not the same as Plusnet's DPI system identifying traffic dynamically. QoS on a local router or firewall prevents bulk transfers from overwhelming upstream bandwidth on the local router. Note upstream - Plusnet police downstream.

They are cousins and use the same basic thing but one is Internet facing while the other is on each end of an IP VPN, is policing upstream, and the edges reside on customer sites.

For Zen to do this to Internet traffic as well they would require big expensive DPI boxes sitting between BT Wholesale and the rest of their network. They either ain't got them or if they have they are just monitoring, not marking which would be a waste as traffic stats can be obtained in many cheaper ways than a GigE capable DPI box.

Essentially thing about it this way. The Zen system is to ensure companies get a smooth experience across the Zen network in between their remote sites by controlling the priority of their traffic as it leaves their sites to ensure bulk data doesn't crowd out real time, and to ensure timely delivery of data as it traverses the Zen network.

The Plusnet model is to ensure that WBC / IPSC links don't max out and to prioritise the delivery of traffic to individual users, hence lives at the edge of the Plusnet network between themselves and BT Wholesale with a single point of marking and policing of traffic - the Zen model gets marked in one place then policed in many.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Seeing as you appear to be in nit-picking critical mode, rather than system logic thinking mode, I have to say I was quite surprised at your description of Plusnet's IP Profile copying as being an essential part of QoS.

How else do you propose they prevent an individual customer's link from saturating and causing serialisation if they don't police very slightly below its maximum capacity, Bob?

The rest of your post just shows you have no idea what you're talking about.

What Zen do is an out of the box feature on routers and firewalls.

What Plusnet do is a bespoke solution that relies on subscriber aware layer 7 DPI hardware snooping RADIUS transactions and interacting with bespoke reporting and customer management systems to ensure appropriate profiles are applied to appropriate customers.

EDIT: Edited to add additional detail to show how absurd the idea is that a basic DSCP marking based QoS/CoS system is in any way equivalent to a layer 7 subscriber aware traffic management system.

This is where you Google to try and find something to nitpick given it was obviously Google that gave you the Zen IP VPN stuff on which you blindly copy/pasted.

Edited by deleted (Mon 23-Sep-13 23:27:26)

Line rental and call charges look very reasonable with IDNet on a 30 day minimum term - what I did notice though was a charge of £48 if switching from LLU.

But as Zen appear to be using the new MPLS POPs for consumer-grade FTTC, thus bypassing WBMC where they have these and feeding direct from Openreach via GEA, the undoubtedly valid technical profundity of your shooting down of me may not be entirely relevant.

yes in affect it appears zen are subsidising BTw exchanges from their backhaul ones.

I wish zen had a online checker tho to confirm if on a zen or btw backhaul, as zen are very tempting for me, the BTw/BTr routing is a bit whacked and I want a static ip. The map that was published a while back on the tbb news page indicates they have a POP in my city which has me assuming my exchange will be zen backhaul.

The article has been updated today.

At the moment it is only available to existing Zen customers. Which explains why it isn't shown on their public website pages.

yep I noticed that also, so they trialling it on existing customers only currently. Thats why the page is hidden then.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

But as Zen appear to be using the new MPLS POPs for consumer-grade FTTC, thus bypassing WBMC where they have these and feeding direct from Openreach via GEA, the undoubtedly valid technical profundity of your shooting down of me may not be entirely relevant.

Sorry, I think you've missed the complete disconnection between Zen's WAN VPN products (that I assume can run over any ISPs connection) and Zen's MPLS backhaul internal provision that allows them to offer EFM and FTTC products at a cheaper operational price than BT's WBC.

The WAN VPN is a product for companies to link together their offices; so they offer QoS so that the company can choose if they don't want someone using internal desktop to desktop video conferencing from flooding the network (it sounds as if its configurable so its a negotiating start - some companies may prefer video conf to have priority).

None of that table applies to broadband products as I read it. The products are completely different. (I suggest you ask Zen direct if you're not convinced).

Edited by jchamier (Tue 24-Sep-13 07:31:21)

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

But as Zen appear to be using the new MPLS POPs for consumer-grade FTTC, thus bypassing WBMC where they have these and feeding direct from Openreach via GEA, the undoubtedly valid technical profundity of your shooting down of me may not be entirely relevant.

GEA or WBMC it's quite irrelevant. They would still need to know the IP profile of each FTTC customer in order to prioritise their line properly and would still need DPI in order to know which classes to put traffic into.

The mechanism in the IP VPN PDF purely applies to prioritising traffic on the Zen network and on customer routers. It is a point to point solution not the everything to a single point solution Plusnet's management is.

In reply to a post by David_W:

It may be that Zen selected exchange hardware that gave them the option of fitting ADSL2+ and/or POTS line cards in the future if the economics of offering these services using SMPF/MPF is favourable.

A bit of digging reveals Zen have already indicated they will use their MSANs for LLU ADSL2+ at some point in the future, but have concentrated on launching the new fibre products first.

What does that mean, will Zen be just another full LLU ADSL+ provider if one takes a line rental and broadband package with them where an exchange is enabled?

In reply to a post by 4M2:

What does that mean, will Zen be just another full LLU ADSL+ provider if one takes a line rental and broadband package with them where an exchange is enabled?

Your guess is as good as mine. The linked post merely says that they will LLU further exchanges and an ADSL product review will be launched at some point in the future.


The strong implication is that Zen will start offering ADSL2+ using SMPF on exchanges where they have presence, and will presumbly migrate existing ADSL customers on those exchanges to their MSAN.

I'm not aware of any indication as to whether Zen intend fitting PSTN line cards to their MSANs so that they can offer 'full LLU' services using MPF.

That sounds OK: one could keep Zen WLR line rental and take broadband as partial LLU (SMPF) with Zen. It would not be a package as such, rather it would be similar to the current separate "consolidated" WLR line rental and G.DMT/21CN ADSL deals that they are offering now both on a 30 day minimum term?

ok on zen's pop page it seems when zooming in these pop's relate to phone exchanges and the one in leicester is for the 2nd exchange in the city that I am not on, other cities have multiple pop's but leics only has one so I have emailed zen to ask which network I would be on with my exchange.

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

on zen's pop page it seems when zooming in these pop's relate to phone exchanges

Zen produced a Google map of their PoPs, but I'm not sure whether they've kept the data source up to date.

If you know which exchange your FTTC goes to that'll give you the answer.

so its impossible zen will have a link between my exchange and the other? they both in the city centre.

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

so its impossible zen will have a link between my exchange and the other? they both in the city centre.

Yes. Otherwise your exchange would be listed by Zen as well.

they confirmed what you said. Gutted I suppose but zen still looking attractive. According to their sales tho ipv6 isnt even been planned.

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

zen still looking attractive. According to their sales tho ipv6 isnt even been planned.

Zen have an IPv6 FAQ, which says IPv6 is being worked on but will not be announced until it is ready to launch as a fully-supported element of their products.

Though it's second best, you can use an IPv6 tunnel. Zen have direct IPv4 peering with Goscomb in London, who host the SixXS gblon2 gateway. For me, the penalty of IPv6 via this route is 7ms extra round trip latency and the 20 bytes per packet overhead of protocol 41.