Bt Checker

Hi,

I have just had my cabinet enabled and on checking the bt availability checker it says

Telephone number 01460..... On exchange CHARD is served by cabinet 4,
FTTC Range (clean)Down, high 38.3 low 30, Up high 7.8 low 6
FTTC Range (impacted)Down, high 32 low 17, Up high 7.8 low 4.4

Does this mean i cannot order up to 76 mbps and this is the maximum i am going to get?
Can anyone tell me where this cabinet is situated.

Thanks

Edited by deleted (Sat 03-Jan-15 20:52:59)

Similar to mine, a 76mbit package (unless it costs no extra) would be a waste of money so yeh just stick with a 38mbit imo. I've always found the BT checker 'fairly' accurate for FTTC.

You could order it. But may just be a waste.

Getting a 38mb/40mb deal would be best for you.

The estimates can be a little conservative so you may get a few mb more but you may not

thats a shame was looking forward to 76 mbit downloads, i'm close to the cabinet as well so just wondered if it changes after new install, first day its been available to order is today i believe.

Save me a few quid though.

Thanks

Edited by deleted (Sat 03-Jan-15 16:50:49)

Mine went straight into the checker at 80 being the best on both clean and impact, with 60 being the lowest on impacted.

How far are you from the cabinet? I paced mine out to around 260 metres.

That said, the cable run could go up and down the street, or worse, so physical distance isn't always a good indicator.

In your shoes, I'd go for the 40mb product. I haven't had mine installed yet, but I'm wondering what the real-world difference between the two is.

In reply to a post by silverfoxxxx:

i'm close to the cabinet as well

As AndyPandy asked,how close do you think you are? I'm about 400m away and my estimates look like this:

FTTC Range A (Clean) download high 79.3, low 60; upload high 20, low 19.5
FTTC Range B (Impacted) download high 70.6, low 44.6; upload high 20, low 14.1

In practice I get about 60Mbps download but have had over 70 for periods.

Edited by kasg (Sat 03-Jan-15 18:55:42)

About 500m, the only thing is the cabinets on the estate don't seem to be numbered except for one of them so maybe I'm not connected to the closest cabinet?, the bottom of the estate are connected to a different cabinet and get the full 80/20 after checking a couple of there phone numbers that I know.

Ah, 500m doesn't really count as "close", although if it really is 500m of cable, your estimates should be quite a bit higher than that. The cabinet numbers normally appear on the nearby PCP, not the fibre cabinet itself.

Oh well, I'm sure 38 meg will be enough for now.., a shame though as it was always nice having my adsl running at 17 meg when on full download, well above my estimated line speed.

If you also post the line above the estimates table, removing your phone number of course, (and I suggest you edit it into the OP rather than a separate post), there is a kind gentleman on these forums who may be able to show you your cabinet on google maps.

My line is 300m (confirmed by Openreach) and my estimates are:

FTTC Range A (Clean) download high 80, low 63.3; upload high 20, low 20
FTTC Range B (Impacted) download high 75.6, low 50.5; upload high 20, low 16.3

There's 120m of aluminium cable in there and now the Cu/Al joints are deteriorating I only get 55 Mbps compared to 74 Mbps about 18 months ago.

My line was checking for speeds at and near max as my NGA is about 250m away but BT Wholesale updated the checker a few times in last few months and each time they have reduced the estimates.

NGA has been in a few years to my knowledge and still quiet a few on Virgin Media round here so not sure why the speeds have dropped..

Most houses have had to have new line installed from the street as most the area was enabled with cable phone lines before BT lines.

Mine is 200m away and getting estimated of 77.8Mb by Openreach. I getting 75Meg in true speed.

In reply to a post by silverfoxxxx:

so maybe I'm not connected to the closest cabinet?

Very possible. My nearest can is literally a stone's throw from my house, but I'm connected to one round the corner of the village green.

It all depends how the houses were build/connected in the first place.

In reply to a post by adslmax:

Mine is 200m away and getting estimated of 77.8Mb by Openreach. I getting 75Meg in true speed.

I wasn't asking what speed I would get, I'm wondering why such a big drop in 3 months and if this is going to get worse "if" more customer from Virgin Media switch over causing crosstalk.

As I mentioned before, most properties in my area do not have a Openreach Line at all to their properties, and nearly everybody had a phone line with cable as they rolled out first.

This is the best of my current understanding about how the checker works...

The estimates made by the BT checker are based on BT classifying your line, and then giving you a range from "similar lines". The top & bottom figures in the range come from the 20th and 80th percentiles of those "similar lines".

What seems to happen is that all lines connected to a DP are given the same initial classification, with an assumption that each line has an average drop wire (or lead-in wire).

For some lines, the back-office database holds the wrong information about the DP. And sometimes the drop wire is a long way from average.

If your estimate changes, it is likely to be because either
a) BT re-classifies your line, so it gets compared with a different set of "similar lines"
- One obvious time this happens is when you order FTTC, and BT gets a chance to check if the original assumptions it made about your line are right.
- A second obvious time is when a neighbour orders FTTC, as BT gets a chance to check some of the original assumptions about the DP.
b) The percentiles of the set of "similar lines" changes.
c) BT's experience changes with added take-up network-wide, and they rebalance the way in which "similar lines" are checked en-mass

OK well, I don't have any "physical" line to my property and why would it change 3x over 3 months and each time it has gone lower and lower.

In reply to a post by mlmclaren:

In reply to a post by adslmax:

Mine is 200m away and getting estimated of 77.8Mb by Openreach. I getting 75Meg in true speed.

I wasn't asking what speed I would get, I'm wondering why such a big drop in 3 months and if this is going to get worse "if" more customer from Virgin Media switch over causing crosstalk.

As I mentioned before, most properties in my area do not have a Openreach Line at all to their properties, and nearly everybody had a phone line with cable as they rolled out first.

My max rate was dropping to 93Meg from 134Meg due to crosstalk but still well above 80Meg thought. My FTTC is now nearly 1 year old.

Downstream Upstream
Line Coding (Trellis) On On
SNR Margin (dB) 9.6 15.3
Attenuation (dB) 11.3 0.0
Output Power (dBm) 12.4 -1.4
Attainable Rate (Kbps) 93063 33045
Rate (Kbps) 79987 19999

Edited by adslmax (Sun 04-Jan-15 14:51:52)

You can always upgrade later to a higher speed if estimate proves conservative. Why waste the money going for a package that looks on your figures not to be attainable. I'd just be pleased you can order the fibre work Chard->Axminster has been glacial.

So its likely that Crosstalk has caused speeds to drop and that's caused BT Wholesale to reduce the estimates then.

Has your connection stopped losing bandwidth now or is it still dropping?

I checked my router stat as it say FTTC retrain is zero mean DLM haven't changed it or haven't dropped connection yet for 40 days!

Edited by adslmax (Sun 04-Jan-15 15:54:08)

What is your area like for Virgin Media users..

Is Virgin available and if so would you think many subscribe through them or not?

virgin media in my area is [censored] terrible (worse congestion) but I left virgin last February 2014 (so I can't comment if it getting better now) but my brother say it still congestion in his area ongoing for 14 months with no fix time! He getting fed up.

I know the feeling, check my BQM in my signature,

were suffering congestion too, but they had started to fix it but the last week has been terrible and today I haven't been able to maintain connection on xbox!

Wound use my EE mi-fi as it performs well but need to forward port 3074 and the Mi-Fi don't have or allow hat feature!

Ooops founds out why BQM was acting up, my automated speedtester was testing every 30 seconds

Edited by mlmclaren (Sun 04-Jan-15 16:44:35)

Mine BQM here for FTTC: http://www.thinkbroadband.com/ping/share/ab9db71b318...

as I just saw your BQM it look pretty bad indeed. Sorry to hear it.

Ooops found out why BQM was acting up, my automated speedtester was testing every 30 seconds

In reply to a post by mlmclaren:

Ooops found out why BQM was acting up, my automated speedtester was testing every 30 seconds

lol lesson is learned

well still rubbish anyway...

back to ghost shots and random disconnects !

I remember a few month ago when I walk to the local shop, I just saw Openreach engineer open the fibre cabinet door (my cabinet) and ask him does crosstalk will lose my speed below 80Meg as my house is just over there. He say if the cabinet is full then my speed will drop around 60Meg mark. No more than that! But the cabinet already got vectoring hardware but not activated yet by Openreach.

Turns out that my testing wasn't causing the issue or at least it hasn't been all night!

My latency is off the chart at the moment and barely able to stay online on xbox!

In reply to a post by adslmax:

But the cabinet already got vectoring hardware but not activated yet by Openreach.

Yours might be but are all, some older cabinets might now have vectoring capabilities.

Is a "physical" line different from a physical line? You have a virtual one?

Plenty of addresses in the BT database are silver-key addresses, which map to PAF addresses but have no service with BT (or at least no current service). I've seen the estimator return results, return a warning that the address could be recognised but no estimates provided, and fail to provide any result whatsoever.

Presumably if it does return a result, it is configured with some idea of the DP that you would be connected to if you had a line (even a "physical" one), and is basing the estimate on the same generic result offered to all addresses on the DP. Any changes to the estimate will be because of changes to the default assumptions behind the DP as a whole.

In reply to a post by mlmclaren:

In reply to a post by adslmax:

But the cabinet already got vectoring hardware but not activated yet by Openreach.

Yours might be but are all, some older cabinets might now have vectoring capabilities.

I don't think my cabinet vectoring isn't activate yet.

In reply to a post by adslmax:

In reply to a post by mlmclaren:

In reply to a post by adslmax:

But the cabinet already got vectoring hardware but not activated yet by Openreach.

Yours might be but are all, some older cabinets might now have vectoring capabilities.

I don't think my cabinet vectoring isn't activate yet.

Sorry I typed my last post wrong I meant,

Your cabinet might "support" vectoring but others might "not" have vectoring capabilities.

I just don't understand why openreach have to wait longer to roll out vectoring because we all need it now because of crosstalk does affect everyone but I am just lucky person that my sync rate haven't dropping below 80Meg yet.

Probably because there are benefits to a stable platform during major rollouts. They most likely want to get further through the current BDUK projects before they rock the boat by changing the technology - the impact on support can be high even in a very well planned and understood change.

There is also the question on whether they know how they will provide it to ISPs. Will it be a standard thing turned on for everyone or will ISPs have the choice for all/individual customers? If they have a choice then systems would need to be setup to manage the changes.

My understanding is that it's all or nothing. All the connections to the cab must vectored, and it'll work, or it won't. (and could worsen some connections).

To do this the cab must be able to support vectoring, and all of the subscribers must have a vectoring-capable modem/router, and have it enabled.

So, with a lot of old BTOR modems out there, it becomes quite a big and expensive project, especially when they're in the middle of the actual rollout of FTTC.

I suspect (not in the same was as Ribble!) that they are installing capable DSLAMS, and a consumer replacement project will be a way down the line.

Well I'm assuming that my estimate is based on next doors FTTC connection as they switched from Virgin Media about 3-4 months ago.

A reasonable starting point, but it is always worth being wary...

My current property started out as a silver-key address from the PAF, with no estimate available. After a preliminary survey as the first step in my order, the estimator changed to give speed estimates before any installation work had been done, or any (new) physical line had been installed.

Unfortunately, the survey got it wrong, and reckoned the property was connected to the cabinet just outside. It turns out there was an old connection, but it went to a different DP than the survey expected, and thence to a different cabinet in the next street.

That difference has so far prevented installation of fibre.

Well I would be very surprised if that was too happen here but nothing's impossible I suppose!

Edited by mlmclaren (Mon 05-Jan-15 17:42:53)

In reply to a post by AndyPandy:

and all of the subscribers must have a vectoring-capable modem/router, and have it enabled.

My understanding is that the DSLAMs can now cope with subscribers who don't have vectoring-capable modems, but can work in a vectoring-friendly way. Whether they can cope with a lot of subscribers like this, or just the odd one or two, I don't know.

So, with a lot of old BTOR modems out there, it becomes quite a big and expensive project, especially when they're in the middle of the actual rollout of FTTC.

That assumes that the BTOR modems aren't vectoring-capable and can't be updated to be capable. Do we know that?

Certainly BT are able to update the firmware in the old modems, and have done so already. The Huawei HG612 appears to be based on the Broadcom BCM6368 chipset.

The Danish telco TDC have a sheet tracking CPE that are vectoring-capable, and that includes a Cisco device that is based on the Broadcom BCM6368 that is marked as vectoring capable.

Swisscom have a PDF listing compatible modems, and includes vectoring status. Again there are devices based on the BCM6368 that are listed with full vectoring capability.

http://www.swisscom.ch/dam/swisscom/en/ws/documents/...

It seems that there is every chance that the HG612 can be updated to be vectoring-capable.

Meanwhile the ECI modem seems to be based on a Lantiq VRX268 chipset. A document from Lantiq suggests that all their VRX chipsets are upgradable to support vectoring

https://www.lantiq.com/fileadmin/downloads/Lantiq-Wh...

I've read, but not confirmed that the HH5 is also based on the VRX268.

As I said, "my understanding is", that doesn't mean I'm a point of reference

Here is what I read on co-existence: http://www.assia-inc.com/technology-media/knowledge-...

It's possible to minimise the impact, but there will always be some.

Upgrading firmware is still a costly process. After all, a very expensive BT project manager will need to be involved

What's the normal turnaround from adsl to fttc with the same company?, just been emailed a date of 21 days from now for activation, was told within a week 2 days ago by phone.

Depends on when Openreach have availability to do it.

It was 14 days for me, scarily an Xmas eve pm installation, and an issue with the modem kept me off line until Xmas day when I decided to see if my Fritzbox could connect where the supplied HG612 wouldnt.

2 to 3 weeks is more normal.

A week would be unusual.

26 days for me

Hi,

I am now fully fibre installed, what do the line stats mean on fibre?,

Broadband Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 39973 kbps 9454 kbps
Line Attenuation 25.9 dB 0.0 dB
Noise Margin 8.4 dB 6.6 dB

Is my connection speed maxed due to ordering the up to 38 meg, would i get more on the up to 76 meg?

Yes, you are basically maxed out and capped at 39999 Down and fairly close on Up

From the raw stats the Noise Margin suggests that there could be a little more to be squeezed out of the Downstream - possibly low 40s although to me it would not be worth changing especially as you could lose some when others are connected. There is probably nothing more on the Upstream.

Does your modem report max attainable rate?

Dont think so, it's the sky hub 2, by all accounts it doesn't do much...

It does give line stats in maintenance, connection statistics but not max attainable, just noise margins etc.

The attenuation suggests the line is running at the top end of expectations anyway.

My Home is 180 meters from the BT cabinet (82 Hunslet Exchange). It's in a vast new housing estate, and there 2 large Fibre optic units/boxes linked to the cabinet. My current download speed estimates from the checker are 80/66.9 Mb/s (clean) and 80/56.9 Mb/s (impacted).
When FTTC was installed in March 2014, the max download test speed was 64 Mb/s. Due to power disconnections & crosstalk (DLM activated) this speed gradually reduced to as low as 48 Mb/s. So I complained to TalkTalk who sent an open reach engineer out. He confirmed that there was a problem at the cabinet. He said the cabinet was full of pairs causing excessive wideband noise (crosstalk) and he had to move the pairs to a new pipe to resolve the issue.
My Downstream Line Rate is now 77.8 Mb/s & 74.9 Mb/s is the speed test result - it's been stable for the last 60 days.
It's obvious crosstalk is an increasing problem and BT should stop finding excuses for not implementing crosstalk.

Speed Test Result

Vectoring to reduce Crosstalk

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

2 to 3 weeks is more normal.

A week would be unusual.

Mine was done 6 days later after first ordered FTTC last year with Plusnet. I must be the lucky bloke!

In reply to a post by DRAMBO:

...and BT should stop finding excuses for not implementing crosstalk.

BT have implemented crosstalk very well in areas of high uptake. Vectoring however, they're taking their time on...

In my previous post I meant to write:It's obvious crosstalk is an increasing problem and BT should stop finding excuses for not implementing vectoring.