Openreach = useless

Cabinet was due to get Fibre in February 2015, for the last 6 months nothing has happened now I see roadworks planned in November for laying power cables, surely they could have worked this out while they installed the Fibre back in February?!.

No doubt they won't build the new cab now until next year now [censored], feels like they have wasted 6 months doing nothing, months more stuck on a 2mbit ADSL connection arrrrgh!.

In reply to a post by Spetznaz:

now I see roadworks planned in November for laying power cables, surely they could have worked this out while they installed the Fibre back in February?!.

I'm sure they did but BT can't just dig up the road and lay power cables whenever and whereever they want to. I don't even know if BT are the ones that install the power - I'd have thought it was whoever operates the power grid in your area. It may be that all BT can do is put in a request for power to be made available. Then, like you, it just has to wait.

I think maybe if you can calm down a bit you might realise that BT are at least as frustrated about this as you are. They have already invested several thousands of pounds into that cabinet and have yet to see any return on that investment. BT have executed a massive roll-out over the last few years. They know what they are doing. Unfortunately (but quite rightly) they are dependant on other companies and organisations to play their part. Sometimes those other entites have their own difficulties that interfere with BT's plans.

Edited by Andrue (Tue 11-Aug-15 21:32:29)

Power is fone by people like ukpn who of course charge the commercial rates for the work

Although such delays seem strange to us on this forum, given that we have an interest in Broadband, what I find even stranger, is the slow Take-up rate, once the FTTC is up and running.

My local FTTC has a capacity of 288 BB connections, only 48 had Filter/Links fully loaded whwen it went live in March 2014.

The 288 is probably sufficient to cover all phone lines through the PCP, about 300 based on Postcodes and Addresses.

A year later, about May 2015, another 48 F/Ls were fitted.

So in the first year of being available, only about 17% at most, had been upgraded, tying in with BT's published figures of about 16% UK-wide in November 2014; and 19% about April 2015.


So it appears that many are satisfied with ADSL; perhaps Dial-up; and even no Web access at all.


Whilst BT has a lot of expensive hardware scattered around the country, at various degrees of installation, not earning its keep.

In reply to a post by eckiedoo:

Although such delays seem strange to us on this forum, given that we have an interest in Broadband, what I find even stranger, is the slow Take-up rate, once the FTTC is up and running.

And VM has to close lower speed packages and force punters to upgrade (at no cost to the customer) from time to time. I think the truth is that most homes can get along quite comfortable on a good ADSL connection (ie; >15Mb/s). And even a lacklustre ADSL connection (>5Mb/s) is enough for a single person living alone if they only browse and read email. It'll even support most IPTV services at a good resolution.

For a lot of people the main advantage of FTTC is stability. The only people with a real need for >20Mb/s are families with teenage children where IPTV or online gaming means competition for bandwidth. Even then I doubt you'd find many households that genuinely need >40Mb/s.

Edited by Andrue (Wed 12-Aug-15 08:36:16)

I find the lack of open communication from Openreach more frustrating.
Cabinet 13 on the Sandwich exchange first appeared in 2013 with a frenzy of activity. The available dates have since slipped from 2013 to Sep 2014, Jun 2015 and now Sept 2015. Each time the date has changed the day before it was due with no reason given. An honest report would allow potential customers to perhaps look at other interim options such as Vfast for two years rather than hanging on for fibre supposedly for only 3 months.

Although such delays seem strange to us on this forum, given that we have an interest in Broadband, what I find even stranger, is the slow Take-up rate, once the FTTC is up and running.

In quarterly reports, BT have reported the overall takeup percentage to be going up by 1% per quarter, regular as clockwork. Of course, that has to be countered by the fact that the rollout coverage has also regularly gone up by about 1m properties per quarter (though that rate has slowed recently, as work is done in rural areas).

Remember that only a small percentage of people follow broadband news as we do, and are chomping at the bit to upgrade instantly. Most don't realise that they can upgrade until they are told ... and even then, contract lock-in might prevent them from swapping in a hurry.

Last autumn, BT were applying for the right to install cabs without electricity meters, and had to give a sample of data about the power used by the different cabinet types, with varying card and port utilisation. That data turned out to be a sample of 34,000 cabinets, out of what is now over 60,000 cabinets. The data used there gives us a great snapshot of how many cards are installed in cabinets, and how many ports are in use.

The upshot is that around 90% of cabinets are still on only their first or second linecard, with roughly the same amount still on their first set of tie pairs.

Thread, with links to statistics: http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/fibre/4409966-fttc-...

That thread has a link to a further thread with statistics from 1 year earlier.

So it appears that many are satisfied with ADSL; perhaps Dial-up; and even no Web access at all.

And, from Ofcom graphs, it seems fair enough to say that even when a subscriber has swapped to fibre-based connection, the 40Mbps package seems to be enough for most. This self-imposed limit seems to apply to VM equally; here around one-third are interested in paying for speeds above the 50Mbps level.

http://postimg.org/image/bly6o16cl/

So ... only 30% of the nation have gone for a superfast connection, and only 35% of them (ie 10% of the nation) have gone for an option above the bare minimum.

In reply to a post by Jethro_Tombs:

I find the lack of open communication from Openreach more frustrating.
...Each time the date has changed the day before it was due with no reason given. An honest report would allow potential customers to perhaps look at other interim options such as Vfast for two years rather than hanging on for fibre supposedly for only 3 months.

It'll change the day before because automated systems kick in and extend it for another three month period. As to being open and honest see my other reply. Openreach aren't the only ones involved in the cabinet installation process. They may have nothing to say other than "We're still waiting on our suppliers like we were the last time you asked". Quite probably someone in Openreach keeps prodding whoever is holding things up but their agreement with them may (most probably does) prohibit them from passing on progress reports from third parties. In which case what do expect them to do?

In reply to a post by eckiedoo:

Although such delays seem strange to us on this forum, given that we have an interest in Broadband, what I find even stranger, is the slow Take-up rate, once the FTTC is up and running.

My local FTTC has a capacity of 288 BB connections, only 48 had Filter/Links fully loaded whwen it went live in March 2014.

The 288 is probably sufficient to cover all phone lines through the PCP, about 300 based on Postcodes and Addresses.

A year later, about May 2015, another 48 F/Ls were fitted.

So in the first year of being available, only about 17% at most, had been upgraded, tying in with BT's published figures of about 16% UK-wide in November 2014; and 19% about April 2015.


So it appears that many are satisfied with ADSL; perhaps Dial-up; and even no Web access at all.


Whilst BT has a lot of expensive hardware scattered around the country, at various degrees of installation, not earning its keep.

How can you tell of take up in the FTTC cabinet?

In reply to a post by eckiedoo:

Although such delays seem strange to us on this forum, given that we have an interest in Broadband, what I find even stranger, is the slow Take-up rate, once the FTTC is up and running.

What were ADSL speeds like before FTTC appeared?

BT do not, and would not be allowed to run power cables. It will be sub-contracted to the local distribution network operating company who will, in turn, have their own series of subcontractors. All sorts of things can impact on that chain.

The FTTC Cabinet is about 10 Metres from my front door, although the VDSL signals take about 300 Metres to get to the same front door!

I spotted the technician opening the FTTC cabinet; and stood talking with him as he loaded the second 48 set of Filter/Links, leaving another 192 to be filled at some later date/s.

The implication at that time, May 2015, working for about 14 months, was that only up to the first 48 had been taken up.

Subsequent to the second 48 being added, there was almost a flurry of visits to the PCP over the next 4 weeks; but since then, things have gone quiet.

Gustimating, I suspect that the "flurry" probably amounted to about half-as-dozen upgrades.

In the previous year, it looked like about one upgrade, every three to four week.

The ADSL Speed for myself was more than adeuqte,around 15 to 16 Mbps Down and around 1 Mbps Up - If I find my Excel records and if they are significantly different, I will correct those.

The Down Attenuation was was just under 24 db on a line about 1,286 Metres long.

This tallied well with the 24 db when I had my line tested way back in Dial-up days, to ensure good connections to my company systems.


I decided to upgrade to VDSL in May 2014, when I was unaware of how low the Take-up Rate was, in effect I wanted to make sure I had a connection in the FTTC, rather than having any great need for higher speeds.

As a result, I went for the 40/10 offering, as it was only £1 (One Pound) per month more, with "free" Anytime calls, 1000 "free" calls to Mobiles etc.

On TBB Tests, it is typically around 36.5 Mbps Down and 8.9 Mbps Up.

The effective VDSL Line Length is at least 300 Metres, because of the convoluted route that the phone line takes. There is a slight chance that it is longer; but I am confident of the "at least 300 M2, as again back in Dial-up days, I had noise on the line; and helped the PO/BT Technician to track down the source of the noise, a deteriorating wrapped joint in a small footpath-level junction box on the foundations of a a "near-neighbour's house.

The Tech had first remade all the associated line joints in the PCP, without clearing the fault; and it was only by studying the records carefully, did the other junction box come to light.

The PCP is only 50 M from my front door; the estate was green-field in 1967; and every house was pre-wired underground for phone, back to the PCP of those days.

Actual phone connections were not available until about 1972, as the old Strowger exchange was not big enough. Only when a Cross-Bar System was installed in a new, larger building, did working connections become available. Very quickly, this estate then had almost 100% "penetration", when the average for Scotland was 55%; and 65% for England.

On VDSL, 40/10, I get about 36.5 Mbps Down, 8.5 Mbps Up.

With the "about 300 Metre length", the Line Attenuation is 15 dbs Down "0" dbs up.

Noise Margins are 12.3 dbs Down and 11.3 dbs up.

I signed up to Infinity 2. Initially I got speeds of 52-53Mpbs and uploads of 8.3 Mb/s due to the cab being not the nearest one (odd - it's about 0.5km away whereas the nearest is < 100m away).

These days i get 30-50Mb/s download and about 7.4MB/s upload. Really not sure if it's worth paying the extra over ADSL2 where I got a rock steady 15MB/s download and about 0.9Mb/s upload.

Seems like FTTC is hyped by BT, it's nowhere near the figures they quote.

In reply to a post by eckiedoo:

The ADSL Speed for myself was more than adeuqte,around 15 to 16 Mbps Down and around 1 Mbps Up

Well, this is what I'm thinking. the Ofcom (?) report of a few months ago came to the conclusion that 10Mbps was the sweet spot where people are generally happy with their speed so it's not surprising at all I think that take up of FTTC has been fairly low. But Openreach have now revised their estimate of takeup in areas that receive poor ADSL to 30%. I could have told them that!

I guess that rollout was done on the basis of how easy (i.e. cheap or expensive) it would be to enable an area against a forecast of how many people are likely to take it up. If it's fairly easy and a large number of people are in that area then I can well imagine it was likely to make a handsome profit even if the equipment is not fully utilised. Unless someone at Openreach has got their calculations very very wrong you can rest assured that even a low takeup in certain areas will be returning a decent profit for them, and that's what counts.

The higher percentage of takeup will be in areas that have poor ADSL but they are also likely to be the areas of fewer people and be more expensive to implement.

I'm on 0.1Mbps at the moment and my area has been amongst the last to be implemented but I forecast that takeup will be high around here, in percentage terms. FTTP coming soon!

On my ADSL2+ I get 14/1Meg with Noise Margin 3.0dB and my Line Attenuation is 31dB from 2011 to 2014. Then upgraded to FTTC in February 2014 and get straight away 75/19Meg with Noise Margin 13.0dB with Line Attenuation is 11.6dB with attainable rate of 107848/33507

The cab I'm on only had 53 fibre customers at the middle of last year according to the engineer who came to try and sort out a sudden drop in sync. That's after being live for 3 years and there are about 1000 lines on the PCP.

For "my" FTTC, an existing Road Traffic Sign Pole was stripped of all signs, which now raises questions about the application of RT Law at the road junction involved.

A simple aspect is that although the main road is 30 MPH, the estate side road is signed as "20 MPH Zone" inbound, 2 such signs; but no corresponding "End of 20 MPH Zone" signs out-bound, none!

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As you have indicated, the local power distribution company made the actual connections from the FTTC to the bottom of the now-bare traffic sign pole, suggesting the FTTC supply is from the general street-lighting cabling.

Does make me wonder if we are relying on the Battery Back-up on a regular basis, particularly as one of the FTTC batteries was tested and replaced some months after the FTTC became active.

In reply to a post by eckiedoo:

As you have indicated, the local power distribution company made the actual connections from the FTTC to the bottom of the now-bare traffic sign pole, suggesting the FTTC supply is from the general street-lighting cabling.

In a local council meeting, the report from the SFNY project to the councillors mentioned this. The indications were that the street-lighting supply is not considered high-enough quality to feed the cabinets.

I have no idea how (or, indeed, whether) street lighting supplies are run separately from domestic supplies. Perhaps the "quality" argument only works for some of the supplies.

Where the street lights are grouped on a common Timer circuit, they will be in degree separated; but that is generally similar to your house being separated from the general supply lines by a large fuse etc.

Otherwise they are on the same general distribution network as the majority of the nation and businesses, other wise they would need separate cabling right back to separate generators.

I suspect that the National Grid relies in part on the night time loading of street lighting to take up the base load energy overnight, just as my Economy 7 supplies do; and with similar reduced tariff rates.

So unless the specific street lighting cabling is known to be in poor condition, that statement appears to be strange.

Possibly you should follow it up in terms of safety etc.

It will be the local power distribution company that will have made those decision, no doubt in consultation with local council representatives. It could easily be that the cable powering the street lighting has reached its power loading limit. The costs of digging up the pavement to install an uprated power cable back to the local substation might have been prohibitive. It's very possible local councilors were presented with the choice of reducing traffic sign illumination or not upgrading local broadband (or at least not for a long time).

As far as peed limit signs are concerned, I rather doubt there's a legal requirement to illuminate them (even 20mph signs). Fe round here are illiuminated, even when signifying a change of speed zone).

From what I can gather, OR in their planning process do agree the power supply with the local distribution company. However, Ive no doubt that their information isn't wholly accurate either and might get faced with unexpected obstacles.

nb. judging by where the trench was dug, my local VDSL cabinet is connected to whatever powers the local street lights.

SSE have a set of instructions for connecting to supplies: HERE

BT can no longer loop out of existing street furniture and must have a connection to the main cable. Other distribution companies will have similar.

I was referring to the complete absence of the "End of 20 MPH ZONE", NOT the end of a 20 MPH Limit - distinctly different signs.

And the missing Zone ones were not illuminated per se, just happened to be mounted on the same pole, so not deliberately illuminated, nor positioned in a way to get maximum benefit from any accidental lighting - in fact at right-angles to that aspect.

The ZONES can cover complete areas, without having to also install the small Repeater signs that a conventional "20 MPH" Limit signage requires.

Thus the 20 MPH Zone signs are more akin to 30 MPH Limits and the Digonal Bar "National Speed Limit "signs, both of which do not require Repeaters ( although I am aware of one road with 30 MPH Limits that dis also have 30 MPH Small Repeaters).

Other Speed Limits, eg 50 MPH do legally require Repeaters.

I actually watched the SP Electrician making the connections at the Access Panel near the foot of the (subsequently bare) pole; and I have assumed that it was to the Supply.Generator side.

All the signs were removed from that pole about two days later, which was probably so that it was no longer conventional "Street Furniture" etc.

And at that time, there was some moving and removal of various signs from other poles around the junction, including the removal of the "End of 20 MPH Zone" signs - which were on two other poles.

As you'll appreciate, it has resulted in the present confused/confusing situation.

This clearly wasn't planned as twice the Fibre cabinet upgrade was shelved, once in February and now in September. Perhaps if they hadn't abandoned ADSL completely on this exchange I wouldn't be as annoyed, 1-2Mbit on a line that syncs at 8Mbit. I doubt they will build the new cabinet now until the power issues are sorted?.

I had a better connection 5 years ago...

It is odd.

We had quite a battle to receive FTTC here, and are now almost half way through the second Huawei 288.

Openreach seemed to have badly underestimated takeup and as a result built where it would be cheapest to rather than where it would sell.

It's really interesting the range of experiences that are coming to light, makes the actual installation of our local FTTC itself a good example of HOW TO DO IT.

Including about a dozen total in the town, they were scheduled for RFS at 31st May 2014.

KELLY was the main Contractor.

From mid-November 2013, their squads could be seen first opening up the basic trenches, concrete bases etc, apparently doing each phase at all the locations simultaneously.

The local FTTC went active about late March 2014, so clearly ahead of the RFS date.

soon after the local cabinet was erected, BT connected the already available fibre; and also the double links to the PCP.

The local electricity company, SP, did the connecting in to the street-lighting power circuit at the foot of the later-bare traffic sogn pole.

The council then did the "re-arranging" of the signs etc.

The disturbed ground around the FTTC was levelled and grass-seed put down.



So looking at the FTTC installation only, although apparently pro-longed as it involved all of the cabinets in town, it went ahead apparently smoothly and was finished significantly earlier than the published RFS Date.

In reply to a post by eckiedoo:

From mid-November 2013, their squads could be seen first opening up the basic trenches, concrete bases etc, apparently doing each phase at all the locations simultaneously.

The local FTTC went active about late March 2014, so clearly ahead of the RFS date.

soon after the local cabinet was erected, BT connected the already available fibre; and also the double links to the PCP.

The local electricity company, SP, did the connecting in to the street-lighting power circuit at the foot of the later-bare traffic sogn pole.

The council then did the "re-arranging" of the signs etc.

The disturbed ground around the FTTC was levelled and grass-seed put down.

And we wonder why deployment is an expensive game?

It reminds me of a quote from last night's parking programme. To solve a problem with commuter parking near a station, one solution was to paint a yellow line... cost £10,000. The line didn't cost that much, but the surrounding processes to make sure it was a legal yellow line is what made the cost so high.

In reply to a post by MHC:

SSE have a set of instructions for connecting to supplies: HERE

BT can no longer loop out of existing street furniture and must have a connection to the main cable. Other distribution companies will have similar.

That could indeed be the kind of instruction that the council referred to.

The document makes interesting reading, especially when you can see that some situations create "private lighting circuits".

My first FTTC line was on a cabinet that was heavily delayed compared to all the surrounding ones. From the different roadworks, and the different patches of tarmac that gradually appeared over 6 months, it looks like they went in 3 different directions looking for a suitable power supply; this cabinet was sited next to a lit traffic sign, which presumably couldn't be used.

BT finally got permission to install cabinets with unmetered supplies at the end of last year. I wonder if that changes any of the emphasis on power supply?