Openreach are useless at resolving faults

Some of you may know that since having FTTC installed at the end of May, we've had issues with the connection dropping and erroring a lot.

We have had nine (yes, nine) Openreach engineer visits and the issue remains unresolved. Each engineer comes, they run their tests and eventually they leave saying my line is perfect.

If my line is pefect, why have I never had an uptime of more than four days (it's usually two days maximum although it does sometimes drop multiple times in a day), when I see other lines of similar lengths never dropping at all? Why if I keep being told my Openreach that CRCs indicate a line fault, am I still having over one hundred CRCs a day?

We are about 700-800m from the cabinet (the JDSU figure changes, sometimes it's 700m, sometimes it's 800m). The attenuation is between 21 and 23dB, depending on router.

Multiple emails have been sent to Openreach's CEO and BT Group's CEO and the issue still remains unresolved.

I am posting this here more as a public service announcement, to say that Openreach consider a dropping connection, with errors, "pefect"! Good luck getting faults resolved with those requirements!

I assume through all of this you have tried a different router/modem?

Yes four of them.

Thought you probably had. Unfortunately finding faults in the network is not easy and with how much we pay it is not profitable to chase them down. Most people aren't particularly good at proper problem solving.

I wouldn't consider a 100-ish CRC's a day a fault ?

I also don't necessarily think that the presence of CRC's always indicate a line fault, it can be due to other factors.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

I wouldn't consider a 100-ish CRC's a day a fault ?

I also don't necessarily think that the presence of CRC's always indicate a line fault, it can be due to other factors.

Well that's what I thought too but multiple engineers seem to be adamant that they do so I've given up trying to argue with them.

Joe Garner's senior team are involved again. Not that that did anything last time...

multiple engineers seem to be adamant that they do so I've given up trying to argue with them.

But you do keep reporting a fault.

Have they swapped out the pair all the way back to the cab ? Has a lift and shift to new ties in the cab been done ?

Well the fault keeps being re-opened by TalkTalk (CEO tech team) as they want it resolved too.

Pair has been swapped, lift and shift also done.

I might be thinking it could be a line card issue in the exchange, has that been changed yet?

We had loads of disconnections and I mean loads to a point where BT India Support couldn't even do a test between the exchange to our HH4.
We ended up having that replaced and our errors have reduced, we still get the random disconnections and some errors but at least its not as bad.

Line cards in the exchange can go faulty, so it might be worth having that checked.

Paul

The lift and shift the OP says has been done should rule that out.

Pair has been swapped, lift and shift also done.

It's going to be one of those odd ones, remote interference or some such.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

The lift and shift the OP says has been done should rule that out.

Ah, ok, I thought the lift and shift was just the cables from home to the cabinet and maybe from the cabinet to the exchange, I wasn't sure if that also included the line card in the exchange.

If that's all been done and hasn't fixed it and they are the only one on his trunk of cables then it would possibly point to something in their building, unless there is a noise source someplace between the exchange and their address, I am no BT Engineer but twisted pairs (balanced line) should reduce that interference.

Paul

In reply to a post by PaulKirby:

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

The lift and shift the OP says has been done should rule that out.

Ah, ok, I thought the lift and shift was just the cables from home to the cabinet and maybe from the cabinet to the exchange, I wasn't sure if that also included the line card in the exchange.

If that's all been done and hasn't fixed it and they are the only one on his trunk of cables then it would possibly point to something in their building, unless there is a noise source someplace between the exchange and their address, I am no BT Engineer but twisted pairs (balanced line) should reduce that interference.

Paul

For the FTTC the E side wouldn't be of relevance as it isn't actually needed for the vdsl to function normally , but isp's rely on a working E side to run their remote tests

In reply to a post by tommy45:

For the FTTC the E side wouldn't be of relevance as it isn't actually needed for the vdsl to function normally , but isp's rely on a working E side to run their remote tests

Ah, that will teach me from not reading the whole thread

Paul

Ah, that will teach me from not reading the whole thread

Or possibly the title of this section of the forum ?

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Ah, that will teach me from not reading the whole thread

Or possibly the title of this section of the forum ?

Well you can never go by that, ADSL stuff always seems to pop up in this section .

Paul

You're lucky not to get billed for those nine engineers' visits. Openreach can charge, and often does charge £130 for each call-out where "no fault found". Since they haven't charged you (or have they?) they presumably recognise there's a fault, even if they can't isolate it, or rectify it. Poor show.

We're in the same boat with an intermittent line fault. But we're leaving it to get much worse, until it hopefully fails altogether on both voice and broadband. That way Openreach can't deny the fault's existence, and bill us for calling them out. Don't let Openreach turn a fault into a cash cow.

Ours is a high-resistance joint somewhere, probably at the pole distribution point, where the line is most exposed to the elements. The CRCs tend to soar in bad weather, when gusts of wind cause the drop-wire to lash about, causing repeated loss of broadband service. When the weather is bad, there's also an audible crackle and a clear 'uptick' in attenuation on resync, as the HR joint takes its toll on the broadband signal.

Since you've had nine engineers visit now, all without merit, maybe it's time to diagnose the fault yourself?

Pinpointing a failure point is usually done using the time-domain reflectometry (TDR) function of the JDSU. Since the engineers can't even give you an accurate estimate of your line length - variously guessing at 700 to 800 metres - it sounds like they don't know how to use TDR properly. Which doesn't bode well as both loop-length estimation and fault location are based on time-domain reflectometry.

Maybe it would be quicker, in the long run, to borrow or hire a time-domain reflectometer to locate the problem yourself? The impedance mismatch of a HR joint will cause a clear and visible reflection in the TDR signal, showing on the screen plot. That's how a well-trained engineer should be able to pinpoint an HR fault within minutes, and to an accuracy of a metre or so.

Good luck arobertson545. With Openreach on the job, you'll need it!

Can't be a line card fault if they're on FTTC

In reply to a post by edwincluck:

Maybe it would be quicker, in the long run, to borrow or hire a time-domain reflectometer to locate the problem yourself? The impedance mismatch of a HR joint will cause a clear and visible reflection in the TDR signal, showing on the screen plot. That's how a well-trained engineer should be able to pinpoint an HR fault within minutes, and to an accuracy of a metre or so.

Good luck arobertson545. With Openreach on the job, you'll need it!

One of the first thing Openreach engineers are taught when they go onto faults is how to read a TDR, they all know how to do it. Broadband trained engineers have this reinforced and then obviously are taught how to read all the other tests on their Exfos or JDSUs.

Edited by deleted (Thu 01-Oct-15 20:08:34)

He already has a JDSU. How does that help exactly?

In reply to a post by Icaras:

Can't be a line card fault if they're on FTTC

Like I said I should of read the whole thread before replying, heh.

Paul

Best bet BatBoy, tell him to buy a proper mole, not a jack of all trades JDSU.

But what's the use of having one anyway, I'm not sure an Openreach engineer would appreciate being told how to do their job?

The target of that link has gone underground.

Something is evidently amiss in the Openreach training programme when nine engineers (nine different men?) can neither estimate a loop length accurately, nor pinpoint a fault along its length.

Ordinarily, in the event of a fault, a supplier is granted the opportunity in law to remedy a problem. But when that fails to happen in a timely fashion, the consumer can appoint a third party to effect the repair. With the repair bill then sent to the errant supplier (Openreach).

That obviously doesn't happen with Openreach since it fiercely guards its plant from third party access. Nevertheless, the problem of unresolved faults is surely something that Ofcom should consider in its once-in-a-decade review of BT Group. Along with a fresh look at compensation paid to end-users when faults like the OP's remain un-repaired for so many months.

In addition Ofcom should insist on overhauling the Openreach policy of charging £130 when the householder is not in. While offering little to no recompense when their own engineers fail to show; a fairly commonplace event. Normally in consumer contract law, such an inequality would be deemed unfair and unenforceable. The end-user's relationship with Openreach should be no exception.

Sincere good luck to the end-user in this case. His ongoing problem is indicative of far wider issues in the quality and competence of network repairs undertaken by Openreach, and in the poor level of maintenance in the network itself.

Edited by deleted (Thu 01-Oct-15 23:41:50)

I'm not sure an Openreach engineer would appreciate being told how to do their job?

Oh no, they love it, honestly they do

You've managed to get several engineers visits ! Please tell me how you managed that.
I notice today that my FTTC has dropped back down to 3.6Mb and has been connected for 2 hours, after a couple of hours yesterday at the giddily fast speed of 5.7Mb.
TalkTalk have sent out an engineer, but Openreach refuse to send anyone out and say my line is fine.

I have an OR engineer here at the moment on his 2nd visit, 1st was yesterday. There will be more to come until the problem is fixed.

Anybody reading this thread should also read the lengthy discussion that this user started at Kitz some time ago - http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,15524.0.html as this will prevent you from suggesting things that have already happened and have failed to resolve the issue

Edited by Spudgun (Fri 02-Oct-15 10:57:13)

What's wrong with your circuit BatBoy ?

Noise on the line and speed capped by DLM. Engineer diagnosed joint problems within 8-20metres of the house.

3rd engineer arrived and found a problem joint in the pavement box with no waterproof casing. He redid the connections (20) and fitted a new casing. He then requested a DLM reset and the speed is back up.

I'm amazed by the speed of the 3 visits so soon after me reporting the issue.

Ok, next problem. I lift the receiver and there's a dial tone. I start to dial but the dial tone doesn't clear.
I tried a different handset, same problem.
Anyone got any ideas?

The loop fault must be showing on a TDR then as I'm sure some of them will have looked at the TDR.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

Ok, next problem. I lift the receiver and there's a dial tone. I start to dial but the dial tone doesn't clear.
I tried a different handset, same problem.
Anyone got any ideas?

What happens when you leave the handset off hook for a few mins, do you get the whining tones?
Also what happens when you phone it?

Could be a DC power issue, dial tone and ringing is AC, could also be a broken wire, some AC can jump over a short break, where as DC can have an issue.
The DC I think powers the phone, AC is for the dial tone and the actual ringing.

Paul

Thanks. It seems to have gone ok now and the errors and noise margin look ok now too. So I'll try those things if it happens again.

Ok, so I checked again and the problem returned. I'm also getting some ES errors and now some SES errors. I've been informed that the persistent dial tone is symptomatic of a rectified loop problem, so I'll be reporting that in the morning and getting another engineer visit no doubt.

Did you get your 4th engineer's visit, Batboy? If so, problem hopefully solved?

No, I didn't report it yet as I'm a bit tied up right now

Same here with this intermittent line fault. The attenuation has dropped back down from 23dB to 20.5dB (earlier it was 19dB) but is now not sufficiently problematic to warrant calling Openreach, at least not until next time. Difficult decision when £130 is potentially at stake. Hope you get your issues sorted soon, Batboy.

Edited by deleted (Wed 07-Oct-15 00:51:45)

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

Ok, so I checked again and the problem returned. I'm also getting some ES errors and now some SES errors. I've been informed that the persistent dial tone is symptomatic of a rectified loop problem, so I'll be reporting that in the morning and getting another engineer visit no doubt.

Did you eventually get your fourth - or was it your fifth - engineers' visit over this? Have Openreach finally resolved this line fault for you? Or was it chalked it up as another "no fault found" - with a bill for the usual call-out charge of £130?

In a sense it's worrying that industry insiders like yourself still can't get a satisfactory fault resolution - after multiple visits from Openreach engineers. What hope for Daily Mail readers who can't even describe, never mind diagnose the fault symptoms?!

Funny this. What happened was that the phone started working again normally, which I put down to the damp-affected joint finally drying out. However, I was still noticing sudden problems between 11:30-14:30. I had mentioned this to the engineer before but he said there was no reason the problem would occur at the same time every day.

Also G.INP finally returned after the DLM reset and this helped no end.

Anyway, then I noticed the problem only occurred when the sun was shining and I figured out it was something to do with the sun heating up the cabinet all morning before going behind a hedge for the rest of the afternoon. Then Autumn arrived and the problem is gone again.

So I think the problem will probably return in 6-9 months, and I'll report it then. I'm now back to full speed.

Dodgy cooling in the cabinet, and they haven't noticed? Sounds like it!

Nah. Continuous Dial Tone faults are always gonna be odds on internal wiring. Likely short terminal 2 and 5.

Unless of course the intermittent short is in the cabinet.

Edit: "... always gonna be odds on ...". So, not always?

Edited by RobertoS (Wed 28-Oct-15 21:14:16)

If you can come up with a way that Continuous Dial Tone is in a cabinet or joint I'd be happy to learn.

In my experience a low insulation loop fault at the cabinet or local loop will be causing ring trip and the mother of all noise on the line way before causing Continuous Dial Tone.

However, the fact is that the rectified loop has gone away of it's own accord, some time after the engineer was in the pavement box re-doing the connections and fitting a casing to cover them - nothing else was done in my house or outside. I can't say about the cab because there's always someone in there anyway.

In reply to a post by partial:

Nah. Continuous Dial Tone faults are always gonna be odds on internal wiring. Likely short terminal 2 and 5.

Simple to diagnose as an internal wiring fault, three or four visiting engineers still didn't discover that?