Openreach modem questions

Hi Guys,

I've got my engineer appointment booked for next week, just one quick question. I'd prefer to not wall mount the Openreach VDSL modem, is that going to be an issue? I've read a few threads about heat.

Secondly is it worth going down the twisted cable route vs straight cable for the RJ11 fly lead? The distance between my socket and the modem is less than 0.5M

Do the engineers call ahead? Access won't be an issue as my wife is able to sit in during the appointment slot but if notice is provided I'd like to attend.

Thanks in advance guys!

My ECI lays flat, it does get warm but it is not wall mounted. Hidden away in a cupboard.

I did invest in a Belkin cable and my BT engineer did give me a call 30 minutes before he arrived when he was checking for a line fault.

Lay flat is normally OK - however, do not cover it and do not place it on a fabric or cloth such as carpet or fluffy type mats as that will hinder the airflow.

Flat v twisted pair. At 0.5m you should be OK with flat, not ideal however a lot will depend on what other electronics and power supplies are close by. Use what ever you have to start with and see what your stats say - if it is under-performing then maybe a change. Do not fall for the marketing hype that some companies use - you should be able to get a 2pair Cat5e RJ11 for £1 or so!

Do the engineers call ahead? Access won't be an issue as my wife is able to sit in during the appointment slot but if notice is provided I'd like to attend.

Yep, they should do.

I'd just like to thank those who responded, I'll be keeping my ears out on Wednesday

You guys rock!

Are they still giving out the Openreach modems?

BT just supplied me with a Homehub5 which does the VDSL and router in one - I presumed the others would do the same since even the router I have from before is VDSL capable (TP-Link which I have had nearly a year).

Depends on the ISP, if its an engineer install you get the Operneach modem usually, if its self-install you get whatever the provider sends you, or with some smaller providers what you buy yourself.

Many still do. Probably most that do engineer installs. BT, Sky and TalkTalk send out self-install VDSL2 routers.

Engineer installs are expected to give the Clean range figures, whereas self-installs are likely to give Impacted range.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Engineer installs are expected to give the Clean range figures, whereas self-installs are likely to give Impacted range.

That is the first I have read of that. Useful to bear in mind for the future.

"Expected". Not guaranteed. And a decent self-install has a good chance of getting Clean. Just as in ADSLx, but FTTC is more sensitive.

You only get a overreach modem if it's required as some suppliers e.g. talk talk plus net some energy suppliers still haven't put it all into one box but as of April next year openreach will no longer supply modems.

I'm getting an Openreach modem because I requested an Engineer Install due to my External NTE. I can't see why Openreach would pull the Engineer install when it simplifies the troubleshooting process.

At the moment if you go with the Engineer install then removes a lot of the complexity of "try another router" and firmly defines the point of demarcation.

I can't see why Openreach would pull the Engineer install when it simplifies the troubleshooting process.

They aren't, what project x was saying is that Openreach won't be supplying VDSL modems on installs after April next year.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Engineer installs are expected to give the Clean range figures, whereas self-installs are likely to give Impacted range.

- I'm not sure that's right?! It's that something official or just your opinion?

My line was an 'engineer' install and that's not what I see - or the 3 or 4 neighbours I can check. If people are correctly using a faceplate filter in a true master socket then that's all there is to optimising your internal wiring and any 'impact' will be between you and the cabinet etc.

You forget the possibility of star wiring, and also the post-installation line tests the engineer carries out. Most of the time the tests are passed, but if they aren't the engineer would probably investigate.

I'd downgrade would probably to might

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

You forget the possibility of star wiring, and also the post-installation line tests the engineer carries out. Most of the time the tests are passed, but if they aren't the engineer would probably investigate.

If a faceplate filter is in use* doesn't this split voice/data so 'star wiring' can't cause problems? This is how I understand things so am worried if I've got this wrong...
*And as I mentioned in the true master socket - correctly wired with no extensions bypassing the test socket.

As for the engineer tests - mine wasn't bothered and left me with the "it should improve over time" line.

@RobertoS
Any comment on the 'star wiring'?
If I've not understood how a faceplate filter works then it would be nice to know...

Star wiring is where the incoming line splits before any supposed NTE. If this has occurred a faceplate filter won't rectify the issue.

As Zarjaz says. There are lots of such installations around, from before the current NTE5 existed. Even though the old master may now have an NTE5 it doesn't necessarily mean the star wiring was removed.

This is also one of the reasons a real Openreach engineer is much better for the job than a contractor. The OR guy will almost always sort it out. A contractor will run away fast as they don't get paid for that.

Thanks Zarjaz and RobertoS.
Glad to hear I had understood things and that a correctly fitted NTE5 and faceplate resolves 'star wiring'!


I don't think @RobertoS's earlier comment re impacted/clean installations is to be taken as a fact...

Read Zarjaz's post again.

How do you know that on any particular installation other than your own that there is no star wiring, even though an NTE5 is present? Do you even know for your own? Remember, this thread is not about your installation.

Depending on when and why, and by whom, an NTE5 was fitted to replace an older master, there is no guarantee at all that star wiring will have been sorted out. If it was done in the days of dialup, as many were, it didn't matter in the slightest.

You seem to be determined to think the VDSL2 faceplate fixes everything. It doesn't. If it did, at no stage would engineers ever have been needed to install FTTC.

In reply to a post by b4dger:

If a faceplate filter is in use* doesn't this split voice/data so 'star wiring' can't cause problems?

No! It doesn't.

Star wiring still impacts the line even when a faceplate filter is in place, and even if there is nothing attached to any extensions fed by star wiring. Plus, anything on star wiring still needs filters else you get chaos.

Edited by RobertoS (Wed 04-Nov-15 12:06:39)

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Star wiring is where the incoming line splits before any supposed NTE. If this has occurred a faceplate filter won't rectify the issue.

Star wiring can occur before or after the NTE. What else can you call it after the NTE?

Star wiring, where the incoming line splits before the NTE, is problematic and will cause issues that a faceplate filter cannot rectify .
Would be a better way to phrase it!

In this context it is normally taken to mean "before" the NTE5. You may be correct, but I have never seen that distinction made before on these forums or any other.

The most likely scenario after the NTE5 is daisy-chaining. Star wiring would require a junction box with multiple extensions fed from it. The most likely setup for that being star wiring "fixed" by feeding back from the NTE5 to the original junction box after that has been by-passed by the incoming line.

This is hard work...
You missed out my *note with your quote.

*And as I mentioned in the true master socket - correctly wired with no extensions bypassing the test socket.

I'm happy I've understood things correctly...

Have it your own way, for your connection. I forget what went on when that was installed, but the comment made by the engineer that you give above doesn't sound at all right. Maybe you can provide a link to a relevant thread.

I just hope that nobody needing to know what needs to be done to ensure as far as possible that their wiring will not cause their FTTC (or even ADSLx) to be impacted will take any notice of you.

I AM correct and there are many many installations with star wiring post NTE as well as combinations of daisy chaining and star.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Have it your own way, for your connection. I forget what went on when that was installed, but the comment made by the engineer that you give above doesn't sound at all right. Maybe you can provide a link to a relevant thread.

I just hope that nobody needing to know what needs to be done to ensure as far as possible that their wiring will not cause their FTTC (or even ADSLx) to be impacted will take any notice of you.

All I was trying to ascertain was that if a line enters a building, goes directly to a correctly wired NTE5 that's been fitted with a faceplate filter then any star wiring on the voice side of things can not have an effect on the DSL conection. i.e. All the voice wiring is on the filtered side of the faceplate filter so is safe however it is wired?

There is no particular link or thread for what the engineer said to me when he installed FTTC - it's just what he said! Incorrectly as we all know, as most people often slow down as DLM and crosstalk take hold. I have said previously that he was only a Kelly engineer - but this still counts as an ISP engineer install.

The effect of star or daisy chain extension wiring that is post faceplate filter should have no effect on the VDSL/ADSL signal picked up from the faceplate socket.

As is the norm for the internet we have discussion of the minute detail

Thanks MrSaffron - as I thought


#phew

What else can you call it after the NTE?

Extension wiring ?!?

As far as I am concerned, in my line of work, 'star wiring' refers to pairs teed before an 'NTE". This being the kind of wiring will produce a 'bridge tap' test result on the engineers test.

Edited by Zarjaz (Wed 04-Nov-15 12:56:24)

So it sounds as if you may have a duff installation. Do you know if the incoming line from outside goes straight to your NTE5, with no branches off beforehand? (Even if they aren't used).

Edited by RobertoS (Wed 04-Nov-15 13:04:29)

What makes you say that?

All my neighbours get roughly the same via FTTC so I'm assuming things are down to line length/quality.

Yes my overhead line comes from the outside directly to my NTE5.

Old post, I know, but...

In reply to a post by b4dger:

I don't think @RobertoS's earlier comment re impacted/clean installations is to be taken as a fact...

Ignoring the subsequent discussion on the definition of star wiring, I suspect RobertoS has been swayed by something I posted not so long ago. The BT handbook on FTTC doesn't quite come out and distinguish clean/impacted as meaning engineer vs self-install, but it isn't far out - it certainly links range B to self-install.

As for an engineer installation ... what else is the engineer for, other than to detect and fix copper faults, and to verify that internal wiring issues don't impact the service? Which is the criteria for a clean installation.

Here's a couple of posts I made on the subject:

http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/fibre/t/4441646-ftt...

http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/fibre/t/4441648-ftt...

Of course, none of this can quite control the behaviour of your ISP. If you start out self-install (with range B estimates), and subsequently have an engineer confirm that you have no copper faults or internal wiring issues, your ISP probably doesn't promote you to range A. They'll still use range B in deciding whether to report issues to Openreach for investigation.

More a case of:-

For FTTC Ranges A and B, the term "Clean" relates to a line which is free from any wiring issues (e.g. Bridge Taps) and/or Copper line conditions, and the term "Impacted" relates to a line which may have wiring issues (e.g. Bridge Taps) and/or Copper line conditions.

from below the table on the BT Wholesale estimator. Bearing in mind the widespread knowledge of the effect of bridge taps (before the NTE) on both ADSLx and FTTC, and that we have seen many left in places on Kelly's and Quinn's FTTC installations. Bear in mind b4dger's opinion is influenced by:-

In reply to a post by b4dger:

As for the engineer tests - mine wasn't bothered and left me with the "it should improve over time" line.

A very suspect installation, and possibly similar for his neighbours.

Edited by RobertoS (Thu 12-Nov-15 14:37:59)

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

What else can you call it after the NTE?

Extension wiring ?!?

As far as I am concerned, in my line of work, 'star wiring' refers to pairs teed before an 'NTE". This being the kind of wiring will produce a 'bridge tap' test result on the engineers test.

Spot on Zarjaz, you're right we only ever call it star wiring if it's prior to the NTE. Or I guess if it was star wired from a BT80 or BT16 and there was no NTE5.

Would never be referred to as star wiring if it occurred after the NTE5

In reply to a post by Icaras:

Would never be referred to as star wiring if it occurred after the NTE5

It did surprise me that someone wanted to, however technically true it would be.

However I think it is valid to say the extensions are star-wired if all are attached directly to the NTE5A.

For FTTC Ranges A and B, the term "Clean" relates to a line which is free from any wiring issues (e.g. Bridge Taps) and/or Copper line conditions, and the term "Impacted" relates to a line which may have wiring issues (e.g. Bridge Taps) and/or Copper line conditions.

My bold above.

All my close neighbours had engineer installs and are all in the 'impacted' range.
So, as mentioned earlier, I believe our local BT lines are causing issues for us.

That's why I wasn't happy with @RobertoS statement making it sound like customers would get 'clean' results if they had an engineer install - there's more to it than that...

I suggest you go back to your basic training and see what it is referred to as there.

In reply to a post by b4dger:

That's why I wasn't happy with @RobertoS statement making it sound like customers would get 'clean' results if they had an engineer install - there's more to it than that...

Yes there is more to it than that. Be aware that the speed guestimator assumes you are within some short range of the DP, so if you are some distance from the DP the guestimator will be wrong.

My exact words were

Engineer installs are expected to give the Clean range figures, whereas self-installs are likely to give Impacted range.

Expected != Will.

Likely != Will.

I wasn't writing a book, for heaven's sake. Of course some will not, in both scenarios.

In reply to a post by b4dger:

That's why I wasn't happy with @RobertoS statement making it sound like customers would get 'clean' results if they had an engineer install - there's more to it than that...

I didn't say anything about the actual results achieved either.

However, there are two important tests that you have to get past if you want to report low speeds (without fault indications) to the ISP and to get an engineer out to investigate.

First your ISP must decide whether to accept your request for support. They will do this based on comparing your actual speed with one of the ranges ... either as-is, or as-was at the time of purchase. If you want them to choose the clean range for this comparison, then you are much more likely to have needed to get an engineer installation.

The FTTC handbook (for ISPs) includes Openreach's recommendation to quote range B estimates to potential customers, if they go for self-install. This initial quote affects the choices made by ISPs forever afterwards.

Second, Openreach must apply the same test before accepting the task. Their threshold used to be the bottom of the appropriate range (the 20th percentile), but nowadays their threshold is even lower - at the tenth percentile.

If you want action, and the attention of an engineer, then being able to use the clean range is of a benefit. Of course, having an engineer attend is not a guarantee of a fix.

Having said all of that, then if your line has a fault that can be detected by the automatic line testing equipment, both ISP and Openreach should respond to that. This kind of copper line condition is not an impediment.