FVA Installation and extension sockets

My area has just had FTTP made available. So fgar I have only found BT & Zen as potential ISPs. One difference is that BT "offer" a FVA service (they call it Fibre Home Phone). I am trying to determine the best place in the house to have the ONT. One of my issues is with the infrastructure of the FVA service.

1. Note I said "offer" above since when I tested out the ordering process on BT's web site it gave me no choice, automatically putting me on Fibre Home Phone.

2. I understand that I will get a new Openreach faceplate on my master socket which will allow it to be disconnected from the external copper. This allows me to use my existing phone extensions in the house. My question is: HOW? Is it the case that the master socket must now have a cable plugged into it to connect it to the TEL1 port on the ONT?

In reply to a post by Tradewind25:

My area has just had FTTP made available. So fgar I have only found BT & Zen as potential ISPs. One difference is that BT "offer" a FVA service (they call it Fibre Home Phone). I am trying to determine the best place in the house to have the ONT. One of my issues is with the infrastructure of the FVA service.

Yeah, we are still down as being part of the Commercial FTTP Project, sadly this has been taking over 4 years to do even though we have had all the fibre hardware sitting there since 2011, but I have been told its very near completion, but yeah, not many ISP's to choose from.

In reply to a post by Tradewind25:

1. Note I said "offer" above since when I tested out the ordering process on BT's web site it gave me no choice, automatically putting me on Fibre Home Phone.

Not that I have heard, I have heard that you have to order the FVA to get it, not too sure of the price, I know we will probably order that once our fibre has been done and ready to order, our copper line is so bad at the moment to a point where we can hear high pitch static screeching on the phone line.

In reply to a post by Tradewind25:

2. I understand that I will get a new Openreach faceplate on my master socket which will allow it to be disconnected from the external copper. This allows me to use my existing phone extensions in the house. My question is: HOW? Is it the case that the master socket must now have a cable plugged into it to connect it to the TEL1 port on the ONT?

Yes, you get a new faceplate that replaces the current one if one is installed, and there is a switch that has copper and fibre on the top, this is to disconnect your existing copper phone line for your internal phone wiring.
On the ONT you have a TEL1 and TEL2 sockets, I think TEL1 is connected to the new master face plate and all the new face plate does is switch between the to inputs (Copper or Fibre), I will take a look when ours is ready, but there is probably more chance you seeing it first.

Paul

Thanks for your input Paul.
I have also rung BT to enquire about FTTP. They quoted the prices that I saw on their web site but did not mention Fibre Home Phone. When I specifically asked they said that they would indeed provide Fibre Home Phone as standard. They regard it as a " free upgrade". However you still pay the same line rental, despite the fact you are no longer using the old copper landline.

I wonder if anyone with experience of FTTP/FTTH and Fibre Home Phone could answer my question about the potential use of existing telephone extension sockets once your line has been switched to the fibre?

An interstitial plate is fitted that can isolate the copper exchange side and the ONT Tel1 output will connect so that existing telephone extensions will still operate and the batter backup unit will supply power for a corded handset and the ONT for a period if there is a power failure.

With BT Retail there is no option to order any Infinity product without taking a voice line rental product, for FTTP customers this may or may not end up with FVA product.

Thanks Andrew.
Just to be clear, are you saying that the Tel1 port on the ONT is connected to the master phone socket once the new plate is fitted?

(My problem is that the master socket was fitted at the far end of my garage, about 50 metres and a complex wiring run away from where I wish the ONT to be sited.)

In reply to a post by Tradewind25:

Thanks for your input Paul.
I have also rung BT to enquire about FTTP. They quoted the prices that I saw on their web site but did not mention Fibre Home Phone. When I specifically asked they said that they would indeed provide Fibre Home Phone as standard. They regard it as a " free upgrade". However you still pay the same line rental, despite the fact you are no longer using the old copper landline.

Yeah, I was wondering if it was a free upgrade, I did check the address 4 doors down that can get FTTP on the BT Site and I could see all the speeds that address can get but no mention of FVA or any options of phone lines being moved over to the fibre line.

I was also aware that we would still have line rental if we was using FVA instead of copper, our copper line is old and we are 3.5km for our exchange, so 3.5km of old copper that has very loud screeching noise on it.

In reply to a post by Tradewind25:

I wonder if anyone with experience of FTTP/FTTH and Fibre Home Phone could answer my question about the potential use of existing telephone extension sockets once your line has been switched to the fibre?

It "should" work fine, any extensions after the master socket will be fine and act as they would over copper.
I am not too sure if there would be any REN issues when using FVA instead of using copper.

Paul

Yeap that is what happens. You do have the option of wiring all the extensions to cope with the new ONT position, or put the corded phone in the cupboard for emergencies and invest in Dect handsets (usually suggest Panasonic which are on offer at the mo as use them myself and others rate them too) and just use the Tel1 socket on the ONT.

Andrew,
I have Dect handsets at the moment. Trouble is that the place I would like the ONT and the place I would like my Dect Base unit (with answerphone) are a fair way apart.

You also you mention keeping a corded phone for emergencies, though as I understand it the battery backup o the ONT only lasts for an hour or so. I happen to be in a bit of rural Cumbria (not flooded thank goodness) where we often get much longer power cuts than that!

In reply to a post by Tradewind25:

You also you mention keeping a corded phone for emergencies, though as I understand it the battery backup o the ONT only lasts for an hour or so. I happen to be in a bit of rural Cumbria (not flooded thank goodness) where we often get much longer power cuts than that!

So what do you do at the moment when the power fails and you want to make a telephone call?

Plug an old corded handset into any of the phone extensions. I won't have this option once the external copper is disconnected and I'm using the fibre.

Can't you just keep the copper phone line?

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

Can't you just keep the copper phone line?

BT's ordering process doesn't give you that option.
If you apply online they just happen to mention that they have very kindly "upgraded" you to Fibre Home Phone. If you call them to place an order they don't even mention the fact unless you ask them.

I'm now thinking of going to Zen, who don't offer any FVA service.

That way you'll be able to choose who your phone rental is with, and also use VOIP if you want.

In reply to a post by Tradewind25:

Plug an old corded handset into any of the phone extensions. I won't have this option once the external copper is disconnected and I'm using the fibre.

Well you would while your backup battery powering up your ONT for about an hour.
But yeah, over copper the line would still be powered even during a power cut due to the backups in the exchange.

Paul

In reply to a post by PaulKirby:

Well you would while your backup battery powering up your ONT for about an hour.

The BBU contains a set of 4 x AA NiMH cells, so nothing to stop you swapping them out for a set of charged ones when they run out. Rinse, repeat, as often as you like.

When I had my FTTP installed, right at the end of the installation the Openreach engineer asked me if I wanted to keep using copper for the phone line, or if I wanted to move it to FVA. I chose FVA out of convenience, but the choice should be given to you on the day of installation.

In reply to a post by Rastus:

In reply to a post by PaulKirby:

Well you would while your backup battery powering up your ONT for about an hour.

The BBU contains a set of 4 x AA NiMH cells, so nothing to stop you swapping them out for a set of charged ones when they run out. Rinse, repeat, as often as you like.

That's good to know, so a 4.8V (5V) supply using NiMH batteries, hmm
Does it say how much current it uses?

In theory I could have a 6V SLA Battery with its own charger and have that connected up to a 4.8 to 5V DC to DC converter and have that connected to the DC Jack Socket on the ONT bypassing the need for the BBU and that would last a lot longer than the 4 pencil batteries.

Our sub station is located at the bottom of our road and is very very old and over the last several years it has gone down a few times and has been down for several hours, so I would like the BBU to last at least 10 hours just in case.

I could plug it all in one of our UPS's we have here, that's if they still work LOL

I will have to wait and see when it finally gets done, which hopefully will be soon, because 4 years is becoming a joke now.

Paul

2000 maAh apparently bt.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/36953

You may be able to get a mains adapter

In reply to a post by EddyTheDog:

When I had my FTTP installed, right at the end of the installation the Openreach engineer asked me if I wanted to keep using copper for the phone line, or if I wanted to move it to FVA. I chose FVA out of convenience, but the choice should be given to you on the day of installation.

Thanks for sharing your experience.
Do you mind my asking when your installation took place? ...and was Fibre Home Phone mentioned when you placed your order?

My final install was on October 23rd. FVA was mentioned, I don't recall being able to opt out during the order process, though, which I did entirely online.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

2000 maAh apparently bt.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/36953

You may be able to get a mains adapter

Ok, so if it lasts upto an hour when on the BBU, that means the ONT could take anything around 2Amps give or take, which makes sense, my Fritz!Box 3390 runs off a 2Amp power brick.

So I would require a 20,000mAh Battery or above to last 10 hours, so that's about £38 to £80 for a 20,000mAh (20Ah SLA), the charger and switching circuit is nothing, I already have a home made 6V SLA Charger that can easily be modified to 12V if required.

Or if I kept with the 4 AA NiMH batteries it would cost from £8 (pack of 4 @ 2.3Ah) to £16 (pack of 4 @ 2.85Ah) so not that bad.

I could also do a external battery pack containing 4 D Size batteries giving me from 2.2Ah for £26 to 10Ah at £59.

Either way should work, but the end of the day its BTOR's Equipment so I guess I would probably stick with the high capacity AA Batteries.

As for the "You may be able to get a mains adapter" comment, that would be great but if there was a power cut it would be useless LOL.

Paul

We do not use telephone extensions at home having a DECT base station and a couple of wireless handsets. So when I had my ONTE installed they put it in the spare bedroom where the router, switch and NAS are. I then plugged the DECT base station into Tel1. I have no link between the ONTE and the master socket which would have required the extension wire that provided the ADSL to stay in place down the stairs. I opted to remove that and use only the FVA. It all works well. Of course if you rely on hard wired extensions for SKY or alarm etc then what I have done is not an option.

In reply to a post by Tradewind25:

In reply to a post by EddyTheDog:

When I had my FTTP installed, right at the end of the installation the Openreach engineer asked me if I wanted to keep using copper for the phone line, or if I wanted to move it to FVA. I chose FVA out of convenience, but the choice should be given to you on the day of installation.

Thanks for sharing your experience.
Do you mind my asking when your installation took place? ...and was Fibre Home Phone mentioned when you placed your order?

When I had my FTTP installed (August this year) I was aware that my ISP (not BT) did not do FVA, but as my phone was with BT I thought I'd ask the engineer about FVA.

According to him, even though my ONT had the Tel1 and Tel2 ports it was not enabled for FVA, furthermore neither was my exchange!

Edited by Rastus (Tue 08-Dec-15 18:11:59)

FVA will only work then the voice and broadband billing is with the same firm.

Many thanks guys for sharing your various experiences.

At the end of the day is there actually any benefit in using FVA? You still pay the same line rental so there's no financial incentive, and I suggle to think of any technical advantage.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

FVA will only work then the voice and broadband billing is with the same firm.

Thanks, that's good to know, so when we do finally get FTTP (sigh) we will stay with BT for both broadband and the phone.

And once I know its really happening I will be moving our internal wiring so that our NTE5A Master Socket and the MKIII xDSL face plate etc is located where we want the ONT, BBU and have the HH5 (whatever we use) located in the middle of our house and just use CAT5 cable between the two.

Paul

In reply to a post by Tradewind25:

At the end of the day is there actually any benefit in using FVA? You still pay the same line rental so there's no financial incentive, and I suggle to think of any technical advantage.

Well in our case it would, we have intermittent static screeching noises on our line that appears out of no ware, so yes in our case it would matter

Paul

I wonder if anyone with experience of FTTP/FTTH and Fibre Home Phone could answer my question about the potential use of existing telephone extension sockets once your line has been switched to the fibre?

Yes, there should be a lead run from the TEL1 port on the ONTE to the existing NTE. The previously described faceplate allows the feed to be switched between FTTP and PSTN if needed. Once complete any previously working extensions will work again.

When I had my FTTP installed, right at the end of the installation the Openreach engineer asked me if I wanted to keep using copper for the phone line, or if I wanted to move it to FVA. I chose FVA out of convenience, but the choice should be given to you on the day of installation.

Summat amiss there, the CP will either have or have not ordered the FVA service prior to the installation.

It's not really a case of 'opt in, or opt out on the day' ?

At the end of the day is there actually any benefit in using FVA? You still pay the same line rental so there's no financial incentive, and I struggle to think of any technical advantage.

No suffering from earth and battery faults, using 'next generation' technology before many others, hopefully WAY more future proof than your old copper pair. The (cough) 'Travelling Folk" won't pinch your network, etc, etc.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

When I had my FTTP installed, right at the end of the installation the Openreach engineer asked me if I wanted to keep using copper for the phone line, or if I wanted to move it to FVA. I chose FVA out of convenience, but the choice should be given to you on the day of installation.

Summat amiss there, the CP will either have or have not ordered the FVA service prior to the installation.

It's not really a case of 'opt in, or opt out on the day' ?

I don't recall either way in the ordering process, but I was multitasking somewhat badly at the time

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

The (cough) 'Travelling Folk" won't pinch your network, etc, etc.

They probably will, for a while yet. They won't get much money for it, though.

In reply to a post by WWWombat:

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

The (cough) 'Travelling Folk" won't pinch your network, etc, etc.

They probably will, for a while yet. They won't get much money for it, though.

They could melt it down and sell it on spools on fleabay as spools for 3d printers LOL.

Paul

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

I wonder if anyone with experience of FTTP/FTTH and Fibre Home Phone could answer my question about the potential use of existing telephone extension sockets once your line has been switched to the fibre?

Yes, there should be a lead run from the TEL1 port on the ONTE to the existing NTE. The previously described faceplate allows the feed to be switched between FTTP and PSTN if needed. Once complete any previously working extensions will work again.

With the copper/fibre faceplate on the master socket and switched to 'Fibre' I can't think of any reason why you couldn't connect the TEL1 port to any one of your extension sockets instead of the master socket faceplate - effectively all your extensions (and the original lower faceplate part of the master socket) are all connected together and once isolated from the incoming copper line no reason why you can't inject the FVA from TEL1 into any of the interconnected sockets.

Tradewind

You may pay the same for Broadband and FVA renral as you would for Broadband and PSTN rental but the chanrges OR ask of your provider are structured differently.

FTTP BB rental high + small increment for FVA ( 135Kb path)
Hign Copper ( SMPF or MPF) for PSTN + small increment for BB

Sp if you take FTTP plus PSTN you have 2 high charges..

This is why some do not provide a voice service with FTTP at all BUT it is only a little cheaper ( If anything) to you. You then use VOIP but get no service in a power cut.

Other thing, the battery back up has to be a minimum of an hour, it may be far more than this depending on how much you use the phone whilst the mains are down. BT will overspec to cover aging batteries etc as this is a regulatory requirement. ( Ordinary AA batteries should work fine if you want to keep spares, just in case, alongside the candles!)

Yes, that would work, but would not provide a true master allowing the switching that the faceplate is built for, potentially causing issues if new owners or the current one wish to go back down the copper based route.

In reply to a post by Tradewind25:

You still pay the same line rental so there's no financial incentive, ...

If you want to avoid paying line rental, and as long as you don't mind having only the choice of a 40/2 or 80/20 FTTP service, PlusNet will allow you to cancel your phone line after your FTTP is enabled. So you would pay only £17.49 or £22.49 respectively (unlimited usage on each). See this thread.

If you want to keep your existing landline number you could port it to a VoIP company (e.g. Voipfone charges £20+VAT to port the number, then £2+VAT per month)

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Yes, that would work, but would not provide a true master allowing the switching that the faceplate is built for, potentially causing issues if new owners or the current one wish to go back down the copper based route.

Isn't the faceplate nothing but an on/off switch which just disconnects the internal wiring from the incoming copper line but leaving the ability to switch back? So, disconnect from incoming copper and connect TEL1 to any convenient point on the internal wiring.

As connecting your POTS phone directly to TEL1 is an option then then there can't be any requirement for the NTE5 electrically in the circuit?

The point is that you're compromising the whole installation, so future upgrades would be difficult.

The point is that you're compromising the whole installation, so future upgrades would be difficult.

Yep.

Hopefully he got it this time.

In reply to a post by Rastus:

In reply to a post by Tradewind25:

You still pay the same line rental so there's no financial incentive, ...

If you want to avoid paying line rental, and as long as you don't mind having only the choice of a 40/2 or 80/20 FTTP service, PlusNet will allow you to cancel your phone line after your FTTP is enabled. So you would pay only £17.49 or £22.49 respectively (unlimited usage on each). See this thread.
B
If you want to keep your existing landline number you could port it to a VoIP company (e.g. Voipfone charges £20+VAT to port the number, then £2+VAT per month)

Unfortunately, when I called PlusNet a few weeks ago, they said that they were nit in a position to supply me with FTTP. I got the impression that they were not taking on new FTTP customers regardless of their area. It may be that existing PlusNet customers can transfer from ADSL to FTTP(???).

Unfortunately their normal customer support staff often know nothing or incorrect information WRT to FTTP. If you post here:

http://community.plus.net/forum/index.php?board=68.0

hopefully one of their (two) FTTP guys will pick it up eventually - can take a few days and some prodding!

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

Hopefully he got it this time.

Nope!

How does it compromise anything?

There's a series of interconnected sockets isolated from anything else once the faceplate is in the 'fibre' position - same as if you just removed the lower part of the standard NTE5 and left it hanging on the wires (to the other extension sockets). How, then does it make any difference where you plug in for TEL1???

In reply to a post by AL66:

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

Hopefully he got it this time.

Nope!

How does it compromise anything?

Because you have made this installation unique and obviously unlike any other.

In reply to a post by AL66:

How does it compromise anything?

There's a series of interconnected sockets isolated from anything else once the faceplate is in the 'fibre' position - same as if you just removed the lower part of the standard NTE5 and left it hanging on the wires (to the other extension sockets). How, then does it make any difference where you plug in for TEL1???

Possibly because if you did as you describe and then inadvertently or otherwise moved the switch to 'copper', the standard copper landline and the FVA output would be 'shorted' together?

Having it set up as you describe would mean that with the FVA dial tone going through to the existing extensions your FVA dial tone would travel on back down the copper feed away from the property. Not good.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Having it set up as you describe would mean that with the FVA dial tone going through to the existing extensions your FVA dial tone would travel on back down the copper feed away from the property. Not good.

Not if the faceplate switch is in the 'Fibre' position surely? Isn't that the whole point - the faceplate is nothing more than a fancy on - off switch??

In reply to a post by Rastus:

Possibly because if you did as you describe and then inadvertently or otherwise moved the switch to 'copper', the standard copper landline and the FVA output would be 'shorted' together?

What's to stop you doing that with the link cable from TEL1 into the faceplate rather than an exension? - Electrically all the sockets are the same.

Possibly, but as long as you understand what you've done and that by removing the link cable from whichever convenient extension you used and move the faceplate switch back to 'Copper' you are back to the original state.

"you" who is this, the engineer? or the bodger?

OP: '(My problem is that the master socket was fitted at the far end of my garage, about 50 metres and a complex wiring run away from where I wish the ONT to be sited.)'

The only bodge here is going to be if the OP has to run 50 metres of unnecessary cabling to reach back to the NTE5 when exactly the same result will be achieved using the supplied short flylead from TEL1 into the nearest extension socket.

Actually there might be a second bodge in all of this - BT/Openreach using a bt431a plug and socket in reverse of the designed use (socket is supposed to be upstream of the plug).

In reply to a post by AL66:

the same result will be achieved using the supplied short flylead from TEL1 into the nearest extension socket.

Where is this "nearest extension socket"?

Yes it's just a switch, BUT, if the copper feed goes to an original NTE elsewhere, and the 'new' NTE is on an extension then the switch of the interstitial plate won't be disconnecting your extension wiring on it's path back to the original feed.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Yes it's just a switch, BUT, if the copper feed goes to an original NTE elsewhere, and the 'new' NTE is on an extension then the switch of the interstitial plate won't be disconnecting your extension wiring on it's path back to the original feed.

I think you are misunderstanding me - the NTE5 stays where it's always been (in the garage) complete with new faceplate isolating the internal wiring from the incoming copper line. Only difference is the flylead is plugged into whichever extension socket is convenient for the ONTE position rather than the NTE5 faceplate.

What if the NTE is the most convenient for the ONT ?

Apparently, it's not what with being 50 metres away in the garage.

In the 'correct' setup the feed from the ONTE via the fly lead should terminate on the rear of the interstitial faceplate.

I do FTTP installations on a regular basis.

OK - interesting to know, are there IDC connectors on the back of the FVA SSFP? Picture would be good! Andrew has some pictures of the faceplate but not the back.

P9 of the Fibre Developers guide shows a picture of 'Interconnecting voice lead (Item Code 77004)', cable with a standard looking phone plug on both ends. I guess with a new build there's going to be no copper - possibly just a string of developer installed slave sockets which use that cable to connect to one of them.

Still don't think the standard way of doing it is going help the OP though - simpler solution will be use the FVA faceplate to isolate the incoming copper and then use the flylead as described as if a new build.

Yes, there are IDC terminations on the rear of the FVA interstitial face plate.

The pre-made leads are a thing of the past (well round this way anyway) We fit a jack to one end of a normal 4 pair internal cable this goes into TEL1 on the ONTE then you run it to the existing NTE where it then terminates on the rear of the faceplate.