fttc here at last

I've finally got fttc after a two and half year wait.
I was on asdl2+ 20 down and 2 up.
I was predicted to get 54.3 down.
Does this look right for 700mtrs from the cabinet using a Billion 8800NL router ?

Downstream Upstream
Line Coding (Trellis) On On
SNR Margin (dB) 6.7 6.1
Attenuation (dB) 24.9 0.0
Output Power (dBm) 12.9 6.9
Attainable Rate (Kbps) 26171 5959
Rate (Kbps) 25162 5900

Cheers.

Mike.

In reply to a post by HarryHomers:

I've finally got fttc after a two and half year wait.
I was on asdl2+ 20 down and 2 up.
I was predicted to get 54.3 down.
Does this look right for 700mtrs from the cabinet using a Billion 8800NL router ?

Downstream Upstream
Line Coding (Trellis) On On
SNR Margin (dB) 6.7 6.1
Attenuation (dB) 24.9 0.0
Output Power (dBm) 12.9 6.9
Attainable Rate (Kbps) 26171 5959
Rate (Kbps) 25162 5900

Cheers.

Mike.

Looks low. Are you connected to the master socket or an extension? Can you connect to the test socket?

In reply to a post by lee111s:

Looks low. Are you connected to the master socket or an extension? Can you connect to the test socket?

Makes no difference in test socket and no extensions.

Then you need an engineer visit. With that attenuation you should be getting double that speed.

the engineer who fitted it told me if the speed hasnt doubled in a couple of days you need a broadband boost engineer.
I cannot get an enigeer visit now without a £165 +vat fee as the line speed is with in their acceptable range 47.6 to 18.8, when I ordered it, it was 54.3 down.

Is that an A range or B range? Did your product come with an engineer install? A prediction of 19-48 down is quite a wide spread.

An old line of mine of 650m (so long ago that the modem firmware had a bug reporting attenuation, so I can't compare) currently has an A range prediction of 45-60 down, 10-16 up. The B range is 22-44 down, 6-12 up.

It was also so long ago that you could only get 40/10 packages, but it could achieve those speeds, and reported achievable of 60/16.

A speed of 25 is very much at the boundary of being considered "superfast", and would normally be expected to be 1.2km away from the cabinet, using standard 0.5mm copper.

they use the full details

FTTC Range A (Clean) down 47.6 - 35 up 8.5 - 6.3
FTTC Range B (Impacted) down 34.5 - 18.8 up 7.8 - 3.9

And say anywhere in between 18.8 and 47.6, using both I know but they will not budge.

If you're in the test socket and below 35 meg you need an engineer visit and the ISP cannot refuse.

a daft question ?
how do they know whether your line is clean or impacted ? and what does it start on an engineer install, clean or impacted ?

Clean is based on your line length and conditions to the master socket I believe.

No idea how they work out the impacted...

What is this 'cannot refuse' guarantee?

In reply to a post by HarryHomers:

a daft question ?
how do they know whether your line is clean or impacted ? and what does it start on an engineer install, clean or impacted ?

From what I've been told by both an ISP and Openreach Engineers...

Clean = Line Installed and/or tested by engineer (from customer premises)

Impacted = Line Remotely Activated and Un-Tested (So if your provider sent you a router and then gave you an activation date to plug it in rather than a visit from Openreach.

The ISP should be sending an engineer if the speeds are not within the quoted upon ordering the service.... if they refuse to book an appointment or can't due to Openreach's refusal ( or changing the estimate figures after order) then the ISP needs to offer the customer an early termination without fee's if they want to go elsewhere for service.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

What is this 'cannot refuse' guarantee?

The line is below the minimum speed expected for the line. Surely an engineer is sent out to attempt to remedy the problem or the OP is allowed to leave the contract without penalty?

In reply to a post by mlmclaren:

The ISP should be sending an engineer if the speeds are not within the quoted upon ordering the service.... if they refuse to book an appointment or can't due to Openreach's refusal ( or changing the estimate figures after order) then the ISP needs to offer the customer an early termination without fee's if they want to go elsewhere for service.

Exactly how I understand it works.

The figures are almost certainly within those shown on the BT checker at time of order.

The OP is synced at 25meg. The low end of the clean range is 35. Something is not right, either the checker isn't accurate, or there's an issue with the phone line.

At 700m (if this is correct) the OP should be getting more than 25meg. I would expect closer to 45.

So what?

The low end of impacted is below the actual sync. The OP IS within forecast speed ranges.

When you sign up with BT retail (not sure about other ISP's) the speed range you're given on their website is the clean range. Nothing is mentioned about the impacted range.

If the OP is with another ISP we need to know what they were advised their speeds would be when they took out the service.

I've just picked a random postcode to test this on. Number 28 at NE6 3SF.

Clean range is 49.7-37.

BT's website shows 50-37meg with a minimum guarantee of 32meg.

ISP and Openreach can still refuse to send out an engineer, i.e. there is no guarantee of any engineer attending to uplift the speed

The voluntary speeds code of practice could be waved around and the poster allowed to leave with no penalty but that is it.

Without knowing the posters address and thus being able to verify the 700m then hard to say, plus there is the length of the drop from the DP into the property to take account of. If the poster wants a review and a quick check of the real distances they should PM me their address.

And BTs website give an impacted range too ... for the one you have used 37.6 to 20

I never said any guarantee, what I did say is that if the do refuse, then as you agree, the customer can cancel their service. Maybe I should have said "shouldn't refused" if we're getting into pedantry.

You and I both know that on a line that is 700m (again, if thos is true) we'd expect speeds quite a bit in excess of 25meg.

Edited by deleted (Sat 19-Mar-16 16:32:12)

Doesn't seem to show for me, unless it's because I'm on the mobile site? http://imgur.com/QgLGRZJ


I'm pretty sure the email that's sent to customers only shows that speed shown on that image too. I've never seen anyone mentions on the bt forums that their estimated range is so wide (from top of clean to bottom of impacted).

As above though, the line should be performing better than it is and I would expect an Openreach visit to either, remedy the problem, or confirm nothing more can be done and the line IS performing at the best it can.

Edited by deleted (Sat 19-Mar-16 16:43:18)

Only was pedantry to emphasis to the original poster that in no way was an engineer visit something the provider cannot refuse. The obsfucation to Openreach also means that in some cases I've chased the ISP has not actually passed on a request from and end-user, or mis-quoted the warning about the 'no fault found/fault found on customer side' cost.

So yes 24 dB attenuation should usually be able to go faster, but he says this when posting from a 1.3km line that is showing 22.6dB attenuation, and a downstream sync of 20,000 Kbps (max 23,676 Kbps) that is not a hard and fast rule. If the original poster wants to send us the address I can go through the checks I do for individuals and also compare with other speed tests we've seen in the area too.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

If the original poster wants to send us the address I can go through the checks I do for individuals and also compare with other speed tests we've seen in the area too.

sent via PM.

In reply to a post by mlmclaren:

In reply to a post by HarryHomers:

a daft question ?
how do they know whether your line is clean or impacted ? and what does it start on an engineer install, clean or impacted ?

From what I've been told by both an ISP and Openreach Engineers...

Clean = Line Installed and/or tested by engineer (from customer premises)

Impacted = Line Remotely Activated and Un-Tested (So if your provider sent you a router and then gave you an activation date to plug it in rather than a visit from Openreach.

Close to my understanding, though I make the distinction between what the line is, and what the line can be assured to be.

"Clean" = a line that has no faults with the copper line, and no "hidden" issues.

"Impacted" = a line with issues of some form.

How does an ISP or Openreach decide whether to treat your line as "clean" or "impacted"? The difference is whether the installation was performed by an engineer.

If it was engineer-installed, then that engineer should have used his test tools to be assured that there were no faults, such as dodgy joints, and no hidden issues (such as a bridged tap). Outcome: everyone is assured your line started out "clean", and Openreach should accept faults when your speed gets too low, measured just on the A range.

If you performed a self-install instead, then your line could be "clean" or "impacted" - no-one knows. With no assurance that your line started out clean, Openreach and the ISP will only work towards the "impacted" figures of the B range.

You would think that, if an engineer subsequently attends and tests the line (whether attending a fault free-of-charge, or being paid by you), to make sure that it is "clean", that both ISP and Openreach would lift their outlook for the line to the A range. I haven't seen evidence either way for what happens here.

There shouldn't ever be a case where the ISP uses a combination of both ranges to discuss speeds with you.

Aside 1: This situation (where Openreach checks the actual speed against the estimate) only applies when the *only* indicator of a fault comes from the low speed. If an automatic line test is run (by the ISP) and indicates a line fault, then Openreach will accept the issue regardless of actual speed.

Aside 2: When the only indicator of a problem *is* low speed, Openreach sets a threshold that the speed must be within the bottom 10% of "equivalent" lines.

Unfortunately, the bottom of the estimated ranges (both A and B) displays the 20% threshold (ie 20% of lines are still slower than this). Actual sync speed has to drop a lot further below the bottom of the range before it hits the 10% mark, and qualifies.