Is there a difference between all BT Providers?

I understand that Plusnet/BT/Zen/Talktalk/Sky all operate under the BT Network apart from Virgin Media. Does that mean that speeds will always be the same between these providers? Are there any differences?

The quoted ISP's all use Openreach's physical network to the exchange so in terms of sync speed, there should be zero difference between the providers (some modems however can perform better than others, some ISP provided modems may perform worse or better than others).

Sky, Talk Talk and a number of others use their own backhaul network though beyond the exchange. Where as BT and PlusNet, amongst others, use BT Wholesale's backhaul network.

This CAN make a difference depending on how much capacity each ISP has, or has "bought" for exchange areas. I usually only affects peak speeds but almost every ISP will suffer "hot VP's" in different areas from time to time.

In reply to a post by AstroBenny:

I understand that Plusnet/BT/Zen/Talktalk/Sky all operate under the BT Network

That's not correct.

ISPs also have their own networks and interconnects to the Internet - these can run hot as well.

Any ISP can also, I believe, choose how much backhaul bandwidth they buy so any ISP could be running the backhaul hot no matter where they buy it from.

And, on some products ISPs can choose characteristics of the line (eg ADSL) and therefore sync speeds can be different between ISPs on those products.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

In reply to a post by AstroBenny:

I understand that Plusnet/BT/Zen/Talktalk/Sky all operate under the BT Network

That's not correct.

Would help if you would elaborate...

In reply to a post by ian72:

And, on some products ISPs can choose characteristics of the line (eg ADSL) and therefore sync speeds can be different between ISPs on those products.

Being on the fibre board I just assume the OP was referring to FTTC/P from Openreach.

I agree with all of your other points too

For FTTC, Openreach own the Local Loop, i.e. the connection from your house to the exchange. From the exchange to the ISP, the ISP can either use BT backhaul, or their own backhaul, or some 3rd party's backhaul.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

For FTTC, Openreach own the Local Loop, i.e. the connection from your house to the exchange. From the exchange to the ISP, the ISP can either use BT backhaul, or their own backhaul, or some 3rd party's backhaul.

Fair enough, same thoughts I was having then.

There is also 3 different DLM profiles, not all these isp's may use the same one, the DLM profile affects how aggressive DLM is when there is line instability.

That was the case for 21CN DLM I believe but for Openreach's FTTC that's not the case. I think Openreach only have 1 mode for DLM.

The three DLM modes is a FTTC thing. 21CN WBC ADSL2+ is a very different beast

I knew it was one way round, been quite a few years since I worked with and xDSL products.

Is it something ISP's get to choose at the point of ordering for each customer? Or is it something Openreach decide depending on each line? Or do ISP's have a "blanket" policy for which DLM profile they want all of their customers on?

ISP's have a "blanket" policy for which DLM profile they want all of their customers on?

ISPs seem to have a "blanket" policy for all of their customers. I have yet to see an ISP change DLM setting for an individual customers on FTTC, not sure if this is actually possible though.

DLM profiles (the 3 profiles) is forced on ISPs... ISPs cannot change outside of these, ie make manual adjustments from their end... Hence why getting things such as "fast path" etc on FTTC is not really a thing.

IE I cannot be on FTTC and request my ISP to set me on fastpath with a 3db noise margin, the provider cannot guarantee that, DLM just does its thing. on ADSL2+ over LLU, adjustments could be made on many ISPs.

Edited by ukhardy07 (Thu 31-Mar-16 14:30:24)

Yeah I used to work for an ISP and we had control over interleaving, noise margin etc on ADSL but not with FTTC. It's coming back to me now about the 3 FTTC DLM profiles. Speed, stability, or a compromise of both being the 3 available.

I suspect almost all, if not all ISP's have gone for the middle ground.

I think the options are

BTW "Standard" = Openreach "Speed"
BTW "Stable" = Openreach "Standard"
BTW "Superstable" = Openreach "Stable"

TalkTalk use Standard
When I did FTTC trials for Sky they used Stable

Not sure of other ISPs.

plusnet, BTr, zen, aaisp - speed
sky - standard
talktalk - stable?

not sure about the talktalk one hence the comment.
Sky were changing the profiles for fiber pro customers on demand but then started becoming stubborn (probably due to upper management putting a block on it), they will still do it if pushed but not as easy as it used to be.

Generally the profile is set when the line is ordered, isp's can switch the profile at any time, but they are all resistant to doing it.

Others have answered "better" but here is my simpler answer:

No, the speed varies a *lot* between providers. The connection between you and the exchange will be a bit different depending on the settings the ISP chooses in the balance between speed and reliability, but that doesn't make all that much difference.

There is a lot more difference between ISPs in the speed and capacity of the connection between your exchange and the internet. Some ISPs throttle data speeds at busy times. Some ISPs simply don't have the capacity to carry all the traffic for their users.

To an extent you get what you pay for. I use Zen and have found them consistently good (they are on record as saying they never throttle) but it is possible that from your local exchange they (or any other ISP) could have capacity issues.

When I moved from a different ISP back to Zen, the difference was significant..

Which ISP are you with at the moment? We could perhaps advise on how they are viewed wrt performance compared to others, and support if there are problems with the connection.

Is this true for Market 1 exchanges? Or does a Market 1 exchange only have BT backhaul connected to it?

There's no such thing as a Market 1 exchange

You know what they mean....

Why you being such a troll for?

Why not correct them instead of confusing them!

In reply to a post by godsell4:

Is this true for Market 1 exchanges? Or does a Market 1 exchange only have BT backhaul connected to it?

Yes - A Market 1 (or A as its now known) is an exchange with only BT Wholesale as it sole provider....

Market 1 only had BT Wholesale.

Market A is BTW and BTW + 1 other Principal Operator, from Sky, TalkTalk and Virgin.

Link.

Thanks. I had a feeling that simply renaming Market 1 as Market A would be a pointless exercise.

I'm not sure if we're talking about FTTC or ADSL here. But if we think of ADSL then it can also depend what equipment the LLU providers have at the exchange compared to BTW's. For example, Sky have a system called Nitro running, whixh gives a higher maximum sync speed than BTW on ADSL2.

This is the Fibre Broadband section.

In reply to a post by lee111s:

....
Sky, Talk Talk and a number of others use their own backhaul network though beyond the exchange. Where as BT and PlusNet, amongst others, use BT Wholesale's backhaul network.

This CAN make a difference depending on how much capacity each ISP has, or has "bought" for exchange areas. I usually only affects peak speeds but almost every ISP will suffer "hot VP's" in different areas from time to time.

Nice simple description of the situation.
The problem for a customer is knowing what the situation is with a specific ISP in THEIR area ! Whereas monthly contracts were available on ADSL, for FTTC one has to sign up for 12 months so its not so easy to try an ISP out.
I have excellent speeds during the evening but often poor speeds during the day but have no idea whether switching ISPs is going to help.

In reply to a post by rarrar:

I have excellent speeds during the evening but often poor speeds during the day but have no idea whether switching ISPs is going to help.

Which ISP are you with?

Vivaciti
I do seem to get very different results on the TBB speedtests from BTW and speedtest.net.
The latter 2 never seem to show full speeds (>60Mbps) while the TBBx1 is often <10Mbps during the day with TBBx6 either showing the same or >60Mbps.
Evening both TBBx1 and TBBx6 show >60Mbps

Last year results used to be conistent across testers.

In reply to a post by godsell4:

Is this true for Market 1 exchanges? Or does a Market 1 exchange only have BT backhaul connected to it?

For FTTC the market designation of the exchange is largely irrelevant. It applies to ADSL only, and the FTTC connection almost certainly terminates elsewhere where other operators do have backhaul.