Ducting for FTTP and Copper

Does anyone know what specification of ducting BT use for FTTP installations? Does it need to be made from a certain material, be a certain size or even made by a certain manufacturer? Presumably it just needs one or more drawstrings included when laid so BT can use these to pull the fibre later?

Also, can copper use the same duct as FTTP or should there be separate ducts?

Thanks!

The "Key information" links on this page are where to start.

Thank you - the website was very helpful. My understanding from this is that BT prefer the duct for the FTTP cable to come above ground outside the house and then go through the wall to the interior CSP but it is not clear that this is absolutely required - it would be much better for us if the ducting can come straight into the plant room.

Can I install the ducting into the plant room or will BT complain?

Thank you

Each installation is different ..... So what's right for some, ain't for others.

I think because those are documents for developers, normally of whole estates (even if small), then it would make sense for the ducting to end outside so that all the external work could be done as required, with no need for access to the premises.

When somebody then orders FTTP access is of course required to do the internal work.

Is this building going to require multiple connections?

On further reading, the FTTP guide says "For ALL single dwelling units (SDUs) duct must be terminated on the external surface of the property".

The building is just a single house so no need for multiple connections.

If I terminate the duct in the plant room (better visually for us) and then BT come to do the connection, will they complain/refuse to complete the installation? The plant room is within the main exterior walls of the house but has an external door and no internal doors.

Thank you!

Zarjaz is the man to answer that, but I have a question.

If the ducting goes into that plant room, would you intend the FTTP ONT and modem router to be in there as well, or further cabling into the living quarters? As there is no communicating door, the latter would seem wise.

Edited by RobertoS (Sun 29-May-16 09:43:28)

I was just thinking about that although for a different reason. At the moment, the FTTP CPS, ONT and modem are currently in our garage (which is being knocked down). My concern was that the plant room could fall below +5C (the door will be louvred for ventilation) but the current garage installation can also clearly fall below +5C today and BT were fine to install the equipment here so hopefully this is not a serious concern.

In terms of not having a connecting door, presumably this is a concern in case the modem needs to be rebooted, etc? Although it requires going outside, the plant room door is adjacent to another external door so I don't think this is a serious problem.

Given all this, I was planning on installing the CPS, ONT and modem in the plant room. If I am missing something, please let me know!

Thanks for all your help

That's another one for Zarjaz. I can think of potential problems and solutions. He knows the possible solutions.

Do you have any wired connections to the router, which is where? Or is everything wireless?

Edited by RobertoS (Sat 28-May-16 23:11:13)

It would all be wired - there would be a CAT6 connection in the plant room to connect the modem to the switch for the rest of the house.

The only real issue I envisage with what you propose, is that the first part of the installation, fitting the BFT and blowing of the fibre, is non appointed, if you aren't around the job will keep being delayed.

You keep referring to 'a modem' , I guess you mean router ?
You say there's going to be an Ethernet link between this room and the main property ? My suggestion would be to use this link between the ONTE and the router which could reside within the property itself.

Did you spot he already has the FTTP ONT installed in a garage, which is to be demolished Zarjaz? So fibre re-routing into new ducting.

Re "modem", my fault in an earlier post. Fixed. Doesn't alter your point though, re where to put the router. I get the impression it is in the garage at the moment.

Edited by RobertoS (Sun 29-May-16 09:47:39)

There will be builders on-site all the time so it shouldn't be an issue for BT to get access whenever they want. Should I get the builder to lay some "EZ Bend cable" fibre through the ducting so it is easier for BT or just include a drawstring and BT will pull their own fibre through?

I can put the router in the main internal house and connect the ONT through an ethernet cable. Sorry - I should have said router, not modem!

Thanks very much for your advice

I assume you have checked that you can actually get a FTTP service to your property

He already has it ...

I take it that your "plant room" houses boiler/s etc, rather than vegetative plants etc.

Could there be any sources of electrical noise in the plant room, that may interfere anywhere along the copper part of the installation?

Yes - boiler and similar equipment with the electricity and gas meters.

I am debating whether to install/duct for copper at all - at the moment we have FTTP and copper coming into our garage - is there any reason to install copper or shall I just go for a pure FTTP installation?

I don't have the every-day experience to be able to say; but I trust that others better-placed than me, will do so.

In reply to a post by bdo21:

Can I install the ducting into the plant room or will BT complain?

I wonder if you are missing something subtle here? Something about ownership of existing infrastructure?

The existing ducting belongs to BT, and the fibre coming through it is part of the BT network ... and you strictly aren't supposed to fiddle with anything beyond the ONT (nor the ONT itself, probably).

What is happening to the existing fibre? Who makes sure that is removed correctly, separated from the DP, and unlit? Who is removing the copper, and making sure it is no longer fed with electricity?

If you are going to be installing ducting on the BT side, just what do you expect to connect *your* ducting onto? Joined onto existing Openreach ducting somewhere underground? I'm pretty sure that Openreach won't let you connect "your" ducting - though they might give/sell you some of theirs to install yourself (restrictions apply, to seal the ducts from gas/liquid), which will then become their property as they later reconnect you.

The original link you were given also has links to "Process, contracts and policy"; that in turn has links to both:
- Network Alterations ("as a builder, developer, architect, consultant or contractor, it's important you notify us first before starting work on your project to avoid causing any unlawful network damage that you'll be liable to pay for");
- External Network Relocation ("if you are only carrying out demolition works and/or require the isolation of network apparatus").

The "Altering our Network" page includes statements of "If you wish to move or alter our network apparatus on a public footpath/pavement/highway, or on your land, such as ... ", "Underground ducting or cables" and "An internal distribution connection box (this is where our external network meets your internal telecoms wiring)"

The Openreach website has this page for the kind of work you look to be doing (including building extensions), and has contact details. I'm pretty sure you ought to be talking to them - and they will be able to give you direct answers on what you can do on a one-off rebuild, rather than a new property.

Somewhere in there is the warning:

In reference to www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/contactus/customernetworksolutions/op...:

If there is any Openreach plant on a property you'll be working on we're the only people who can move it for you. If you don't contact us and make any alterations, remove or replace fixings, remove drop-wires or lead-ins (temporarily or permanently) or do anything which adversely affects our network this would be classed as trespass and we would take appropriate action against any third party who trespasses on our network.

I'm surprised your builder/architect hasn't mentioned anything.

In reply to a post by bdo21:

Should I get the builder to lay some "EZ Bend cable" fibre through the ducting so it is easier for BT or just include a drawstring and BT will pull their own fibre through?

It is unlikely that BT would want EZ cable placed in ducting that is connected to their access network. They normally only use that within the customer's premises, after the splice point. From all your descriptions so far, your ducting appears to be on the BT side of the splice point.

That contact details above will, I'm sure, be able to give you the right details.

In reply to a post by bdo21:

is there any reason to install copper or shall I just go for a pure FTTP installation?

I suspect that the choice might not be yours - BT might insist (for their USO obligations) that you restore the copper ducting too.

No I didn't Bob, sorry.

To the OP, what distance is it from the existing CSP to your suggested new location for the ONTE ? The 'eezee' bend cables only come in maximum lengths of 30m, so it may not be feasible to do as you suggest.

There is a BT manhole at the end of our driveway where they originally connected the fibre from. This manhole is approximately 15m from the current CSP and less than 20m from where the CSP in the new plant room will be (i.e. an extra 5m).

The ducting was originally laid under the driveway which is being dug up as well as the garage being demolished. I thought it would be easier for me to lay new ducting to replace the existing ducting (i.e. take it back to the manhole entry point) and then BT can just connect everything up. Another option is to get BT out to install new ducting themselves but my concern is the time it will take to get BT to do this and will the build phase have moved on too quickly for them.

Whichever options you take regarding placing new ducting down to your property and digging where Openreach's plant equipment and infrastructure is, you will need to get permission from Openreach beforehand.

Without permissions you may be liable for repairs and reworks that may need to be done.

Edit: If your building and ground works haven't started yet, then I would contact Openreach ASAP using the info in the developers handbook so that the required permissions and other processes can start.

Edited by cymru123 (Mon 30-May-16 14:56:51)

In reply to a post by WWWombat:

I wonder if you are missing something subtle here? Something about ownership of existing infrastructure?

The existing ducting belongs to BT, and the fibre coming through it is part of the BT network ... and you strictly aren't supposed to fiddle with anything beyond the ONT (nor the ONT itself, probably).

I thought it would easier for BT if I installed the ducting (using their approved ducts) but had not thought about ownership of their existing ducts...

In reply to a post by WWWombat:

What is happening to the existing fibre? Who makes sure that is removed correctly, separated from the DP, and unlit? Who is removing the copper, and making sure it is no longer fed with electricity?

I assumed the fibre could just be chopped (similar to if it was accidentally cut by a digger for example). It sounds like there may be some issues with this?

There are 3 or 4 copper lines installed in the property (from before I bought the house) using armoured cables but none of them are active (I just use the FTTP). Do they need more formal removal?

In reply to a post by WWWombat:

If you are going to be installing ducting on the BT side, just what do you expect to connect *your* ducting onto? Joined onto existing Openreach ducting somewhere underground? I'm pretty sure that Openreach won't let you connect "your" ducting - though they might give/sell you some of theirs to install yourself (restrictions apply, to seal the ducts from gas/liquid), which will then become their property as they later reconnect you.

I could either install new ducting which connects to the existing ducting to extend it 5m or so or I could replace all the ducting from the manhole outside my driveway. I found a document showing BT's list of approved ducting but I have not yet looked into how the builder would actually get this ducting.

In reply to a post by WWWombat:

The original link you were given also has links to "Process, contracts and policy"; that in turn has links to both:
- Network Alterations ("as a builder, developer, architect, consultant or contractor, it's important you notify us first before starting work on your project to avoid causing any unlawful network damage that you'll be liable to pay for");
- External Network Relocation ("if you are only carrying out demolition works and/or require the isolation of network apparatus").

The "Altering our Network" page includes statements of "If you wish to move or alter our network apparatus on a public footpath/pavement/highway, or on your land, such as ... ", "Underground ducting or cables" and "An internal distribution connection box (this is where our external network meets your internal telecoms wiring)"

The Openreach website has this page for the kind of work you look to be doing (including building extensions), and has contact details. I'm pretty sure you ought to be talking to them - and they will be able to give you direct answers on what you can do on a one-off rebuild, rather than a new property.

Perhaps I need to rethink the approach. Openreach's network relocation team might be the best point of contact.

In reply to a post by WWWombat:

In reply to a post by bdo21:

is there any reason to install copper or shall I just go for a pure FTTP installation?

I suspect that the choice might not be yours - BT might insist (for their USO obligations) that you restore the copper ducting too.

Another reason to contact BT.

Thanks very much for your detailed post - very helpful!

In reply to a post by bdo21:

I could either install new ducting which connects to the existing ducting to extend it 5m or so or I could replace all the ducting from the manhole outside my driveway. I found a document showing BT's list of approved ducting but I have not yet looked into how the builder would actually get this ducting.

If you can't get it from BT, try here.

I have an update for those interested and a question! I had the Openreach moves team come out to survey what I needed ahead of the construction work starting. They said they are the same team that move BT infrastructure when they are widening the M25 as an example so residential FTTP is not normally what they do and the cost structure reflects this.

The base case is they would need to blow new fibre from a node - there is no connector near our house so the distance is reasonably long. This is expensive. They suggested an alternative that we cut the fibre cable and store it in the duct during the construction work and hope that it does not crack and then reinstall the FTTP using the same cable which would be much cheaper. This makes sense but the positioning of the new constructions means the existing length of fibre cable is going to be very tight and if the fibre is cracked, the solution does not work.

I came home his evening and found Openreach installing ducting for another FTTPoD installation on our small road (only five houses). The engineer said they are installing ducting which has capacity for 7 strands of fibre. I assume it will be impossible to penetrate the BT bureaucracy but is there any way that I could get them to run a fibre strand for me to pre-empt my construction work which will be done in 6 months or so?

Thanks!