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Any help and advice would be welcome, I am finding it difficult to translate the line stats and find possible causes for the poor performance of my VDSL connection, I�m on BT Infinity 2 80/20 unlimited and have been from Oct 2014 one of the first to be connected to the cabinet, this was a BT install the line was very unstable from day one with numerus dropouts throughout the day, BT eventually admitted there was a fault and Openreach repaired some faults including a new cable from the pole to house (old cable was a flat fig 8 type) we had at that time a download speed of around 55Mb that fell into the lower end of the impacted range, as it was within the range BT would not investigate further.
My question is as the line was faulty from day one and for a period after install would my line have been banded or capped and never removed. I have been downloading to mydslwebstats for a fortnight, user name Wj66 if you find time to check them out it would be very much appreciated.
ECI Cabinet with G.inp active
Approximate distance to fttc 350 Mts as the cable would run, with a ATN of 14db down and 13db up.
The power levels on the downstream seem to be low at 5.4dbm both up and down.
The SNR is stable and Errors don�t seem to be extreme.
I don�t really understand the QLN and HLOG graphs but have been not varied from first time I tried the HG612 shortly after install.
I don�t think it is all down to crosstalk download has reduced by around 10mb from install and cabinet going live over 2 years, but you good people will now better than me, pushing 70 all this is technology is overpowering. Thanks for taking the time to read all this hope it makes sense.
(I will post the connection stats and any other info I have if it helps)
John
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Hi John,
Welcome to the forum.
Line stats would be great please.
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Thank you William
xdslcmd info --stats
xdslcmd: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Retrain Reason: 0
Last initialization procedure status: 0
Max: Upstream rate = 17825 Kbps, Downstream rate = 46768 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 17667 Kbps, Downstream rate = 44873 Kbps
Bearer: 1, Upstream rate = 0 Kbps, Downstream rate = 0 Kbps
Link Power State: L0
Mode: VDSL2 Annex B
VDSL2 Profile: Profile 17a
TPS-TC: PTM Mode(0x0)
Trellis: U:ON /D:ON
Line Status: No Defect
Training Status: Showtime
Down Up
SNR (dB): 6.3 6.1
Attn(dB): 14.2 0.0
Pwr(dBm): 5.4 5.4
VDSL2 framing
Bearer 0
MSGc: -6 14
B: 227 238
M: 1 1
T: 0 16
R: 14 16
S: 0.1616 0.4307
L: 11980 4737
D: 1 1
I: 242 255
N: 242 255
Q: 4 0
V: 0 0
RxQueue: 78 0
TxQueue: 26 0
G.INP Framing: 18 0
G.INP lookback: 26 0
RRC bits: 0 24
Bearer 1
MSGc: 122 -6
B: 0 0
M: 2 0
T: 2 0
R: 16 0
S: 8.0000 0.0000
L: 32 0
D: 1 0
I: 32 0
N: 32 0
Q: 0 0
V: 0 0
RxQueue: 0 0
TxQueue: 0 0
G.INP Framing: 0 0
G.INP lookback: 0 0
RRC bits: 0 0
Counters
Bearer 0
OHF: 0 1024913
OHFErr: 0 550
RS: 525905452 1132869
RSCorr: 10846 9273
RSUnCorr: 0 0
Bearer 1
OHF: 33862910 0
OHFErr: 0 0
RS: 270902786 0
RSCorr: 16 0
RSUnCorr: 0 0
Retransmit Counters
rtx_tx: 3139665 0
rtx_c: 873 0
rtx_uc: 0 0
G.INP Counters
LEFTRS: 0 0
minEFTR: 44863 0
errFreeBits: 372043278 0
Bearer 0
HEC: 0 0
OCD: 0 0
LCD: 0 0
Total Cells: 3989409775 0
Data Cells: 3809372624 0
Drop Cells: 0
Bit Errors: 0 0
Bearer 1
HEC: 0 0
OCD: 0 0
LCD: 0 0
Total Cells: 0 0
Data Cells: 0 0
Drop Cells: 0
Bit Errors: 0 0
ES: 0 332
SES: 0 5
UAS: 26 26
AS: 543930
Bearer 0
INP: 49.00 0.00
INPRein: 0.00 0.00
delay: 0 0
PER: 0.00 6.91
OR: 0.01 23.13
AgR: 44972.09 17690.00
Bearer 1
INP: 2.00 0.00
INPRein: 2.00 0.00
delay: 0 0
PER: 16.06 0.01
OR: 63.75 0.01
AgR: 63.75 0.01
Bitswap: 125840/126023 920/943
Total time = 1 days 7 hours 5 min 56 sec
FEC: 10846 9273
CRC: 0 550
ES: 0 332
SES: 0 5
UAS: 26 26
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Latest 15 minutes time = 5 min 56 sec
FEC: 0 0
CRC: 0 0
ES: 0 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Previous 15 minutes time = 15 min 0 sec
FEC: 6 6
CRC: 0 1
ES: 0 1
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Latest 1 day time = 7 hours 5 min 56 sec
FEC: 269 243
CRC: 0 22
ES: 0 19
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Previous 1 day time = 24 hours 0 sec
FEC: 654 566
CRC: 0 48
ES: 0 45
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Since Link time = 6 days 7 hours 5 min 29 sec
FEC: 10846 9273
CRC: 0 550
ES: 0 332
SES: 0 5
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
#
Edited by deleted (Tue 24-Jan-17 21:40:54)
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No problem, John.
Just had a look at your line stats and I can't see anything wrong, your line isn't banded and is working to specification, however there is definitely crosstalk present, which, unfortunately, you can't remove.
Edited by deleted (Tue 24-Jan-17 21:44:35)
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Just seams low download speed at 350mts (no more) to cabinet and a Attenuation of 14.2
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Yes, is your line connected to a cabinet in a built up area? Unfortunately, crosstalk can eat away at the line rate very quickly.
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Can you post the estimates that www.dslchecker.bt.com returns for your line, please?
Ideally I would like to see something like this VDSL Range A (Clean) 80 69.9 20 17 62.3 Available -- -- -- --
VDSL Range B (Impacted) 70 51.9 20 17.5 39.8 Available -- -- -- --
Edited by deleted (Tue 24-Jan-17 21:58:45)
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Hi William thanks for taking the time to help. No not in a built-up area, a small rural area if you blink while driving through you will miss it.
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No problem, John.
Yes, I forgot to ask, but that estimate is quite high for a line with a high amount of crosstalk on it.
Edited by deleted (Tue 24-Jan-17 22:00:45)
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How much cross talk does the line have on it then?
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The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
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Hi BatBoy
Range A 80 > 70.2 - 20 20
Range B 77.6 > 44 - 20 12.6
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How much cross talk does the line have on it then?
You can't measure crosstalk to a specific amount, it's either there or not.
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Range A 80 > 70.2 - 20 20
Range B 77.6 > 44 - 20 12.6
That's surprising as both your downstream and upstream rate's are significantly lower than your estimate. Can you try connecting the DSL cable to a filter and then connect that to the test socket?
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Did BT provide you with a Homehub modem/router that you can try instead?
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Yes, done that makes no difference I get a slightly higher download but lower up speed using my Vigor 130
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Yes, makes very little difference
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Are you able to post the line stats from the Homehub?
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Why would he need to do that if it makes no difference?
Edited by deleted (Tue 24-Jan-17 22:24:21)
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Ah my mistake i must have misinterpreted your comment about the line estimates being wrong based on the amount of cross talk.
For 15dB attenuation and the distance the estimate range seems reasonable.
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The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
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Not without disconnecting everything, the home hub 5 is total rubbish, the Vigor and AC88U leave it standing.
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No matter. I think you will probably need to reconnect the Homehub soon as it looks like you need to report a fault to BT and get an engineer visit as your actual speeds are so far below your estimates.
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How much cross talk does the line have on it then?
You can't measure crosstalk to a specific amount, it's either there or not.
Not true. The amount of crosstalk is fully variable, can be measured (at least in the labs) and depends on how close your copper pair is to other VDSL2 subscribers in the access cable. It also depends how well your line has been twisted.
Take a look at this 100x100 image that documents the amount of crosstalk (aka FEXT) on each pair in a 100-pair cable, alongside an indication of which of the other 99-pairs that crosstalk is coming from.
https://postimg.org/image/77xt3e8o1/
Notice how the worst crosstalk (the red blocks) tends to come from a subgroup of just 25 other lines? That's because a 100-pair cable is internally constructed in bundles of 25-pairs known as "binders"; your biggest disturbers are the 24 other pairs in the same binder.
The equivalent "bluest" blocks will be from binders running on the opposite side of the cable, with their pairs having the most minimal physical contact, leading to the least opportunity to interfere.
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Sorry, WWWombat, I didn't mean you couldn't measure it at all, but trying to measure crosstalk in terms of a decrease in line rate is quite tricky.
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Long answer. Sorry 
Your actual line speed isn't a nice round number (or a few bytes under), and your downstream SNR isn't significantly higher than 6dB. Both of these are indicators of banding ... so you are not banded.
Instead, you seem to have plain G.INP active on the line. There seems to be nothing strange about the settings.
It is, however, unusual to come across an ECI line with G.INP active. Are you a TV subscriber? I believe the ECI turn-off last year left TV subscribers with active G.INP.
You are getting a few FECs, small amounts of retransmission, and no failures of retransmission (so no CRC or ESs). Everything looks to be running fine.
The only oddity is that your speed is very low for your attenuation. Compare (on MDWS) with William's line - same speed, but an attenuation of 26.
Understanding Hlog and QLN graphs: Think of these as the input parameters to the SNR/tone graph, which will define the bits/tone graph. Hlog really defines how well the signal will get through. The QLN defines how much noise there is on your line when there isn't any signal. Once you have a signal running, that noise is going to compete with it.
Your Hlog looks OK, though the tail drops off quickly. It isn't the cause of your problems, though.
For comparison with a similar line with a good Hlog, take a look at alexatkin. For other similar lines with reasonable Hlog, look at tom34 or ashlez.
For comparison with similar lines that appear to have faults (bridged taps), look at jelv or Plutox.
Your QLN looks really, really noisy (and by noise, I mean signals picked up from other lines - crosstalk). A very quiet line would be around -140. A plain, simple line would be maybe -110 to -130 with occasional drops to -140. There is usually some variation across the frequencies - with peaks and troughs especially evident in the ADSL2+ spectrum.
In comparison to the other lines I mentioned, I've ranked them from noisiest down to quietest...
- wj66
- ashlez
- Plutox (affected by bad Hlog)
- jelv (affected by bad Hlog)
- tom34
- alexatkin
One line has a fairly "pretty" look: Wharfedale.
What impact does the noise on the QLN graph have? Essentially, each 3dB of extra noise means 3dB less usable signal on the SNR/tone graph, which in turn means 1 bit less on the bits/tone graph.
For example, compare your line with @alexatkin in the region of tones 600-700.
- On Hlog, your lines are both around -12 to -14.
- On QLN, your line is around -96dB, @alexatkin is around -113. About 17dB difference.
- On SNR/tone, @alexatkin is around 48dB, while your line is around 31dB. About 17dB difference.
- On bits/tone, your line is 7 bits.@alexatkin gets 12 bits.
Can you see how the extra 17dB in noise on your QLN graph translates to 17dB less on the SNR graph, and translates to 5 less bits per tone?
Looking across the whole spectrum, you are getting a pretty consistent number of bits. No massive peaks and troughs. That suggests the problem is crosstalk from other lines, rather than some specific RF source externally.
Ultimately, there isn't a lot you can do about crosstalk, other than getting an engineer to try another pair. Which might get similarly afflicted in the future.
Edited by deleted (Tue 24-Jan-17 23:56:47)
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Sorry, WWWombat, I didn't mean you couldn't measure it at all, but trying to measure crosstalk in terms of a decrease in line rate is quite tricky.
And, that rather than "being there or not there" it is much better thought of a "always there, but with a random amount of impact".
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Because his service provider will require it done to rule out his, to them, non standard equipment.
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That's because a 100-pair cable is internally constructed in bundles of 25-pairs known as "binders
Except that it's not, the unit's, bunches or 'whippings' are in units of 10 on UK PET cable....
1st five pairs with a white A leg, blue, orange, green, brown, slate, then the next 5 with a red A leg .... and that's the bundle.
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And, that rather than "being there or not there" it is much better thought of a "always there, but with a random amount of impact".
Ok, thanks for confirming.
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I agree, HomeHub in place and report a fault. Speeds are far below what should be provided at that line length.
Can you confirm, the landline works fine ie a dial tone and everything?
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Thank you for the help and advice:
WilliamGrimsley
BatBoy
WWWombat
Zarjaz
Ukhardy07
House phone works OK no noise on the line, put the HH5 back inline but it must be faulty as It will not connect to internet, so have replaced with the V130 better rate than HG612 but still not in the BT range for my line. For my line Estimated download speed range 70Mb-80Mb with 64Mb Minimum speed guarantee*.
The Vigor 130 is running the latest BT firmware, as this is an approved BT modem would it be ok to report a fault to BT. Reading WWWombat I believe a pair swap would be worth trying but how do I get BT to agree? What would be the cost? I have a hearing problems and find it difficult using the phone and online chat all I get is the Indian support team (not helpful at all) below are the stats from the V130.
Thanks again, John
System Up Time 4:34:1
Vigor> vdsl status
---------------------- ATU-R Info (hw: annex A, f/w: annex A/B/C) -----------
Running Mode : 17A State : SHOWTIME
DS Actual Rate : 50143000 bps US Actual Rate : 16460000 bps
DS Attainable Rate : 49584864 bps US Attainable Rate : 16223547 bps
DS Path Mode : Fast US Path Mode : Fast
DS Interleave Depth : 1 US Interleave Depth : 1
NE Current Attenuation : 14 dB Cur SNR Margin : 5 dB
DS actual PSD : 5. 9 dB US actual PSD : 6. 0 dB
NE CRC Count : 18 FE CRC Count : 59331
NE ES Count : 3 FE ES Count : 33100
Xdsl Reset Times : 0 Xdsl Link Times : 1
ITU Version[0] : b5004946 ITU Version[1] : 544e0000
VDSL Firmware Version : 05-07-06-0D-01-07 [with Vectoring support]
Power Management Mode : DSL_G997_PMS_L0
Test Mode : DISABLE
-------------------------------- ATU-C Info ---------------------------------
Far Current Attenuation : 13 dB Far SNR Margin : 6 dB
CO ITU Version[0] : b5004946 CO ITU Version[1] : 544eb206
DSLAM CHIPSET VENDOR : < IFTN >
Vigor> vdsl status more
---------------------- ATU-R Info (hw: annex A, f/w: annex A/B/C) -----------
Near End Far End Note
Trellis : 1 1
Bitswap : 1 1
ReTxEnable : 0 1
VirtualNoise : 0 0
20BitSupport : 0 0
LatencyPath : 0 0
LOS : 0 0
LOF : 0 0
LPR : 0 0
LOM : 0 0
SosSuccess : 0 0
NCD : 0 0
LCD : 0 0
FECS : 0 7317806 (seconds)
ES : 3 33100 (seconds)
SES : 1 126 (seconds)
LOSS : 0 129 (seconds)
UAS : 34 33302 (seconds)
HECError : 0 0
CRC : 18 59331
RsCorrection : 0 0
INP : 0 225 (symbols)
InterleaveDelay : 0 28 (1/100 ms)
NFEC : 255 32
RFEC : 16 16
LSYMB : 4414 16
INTLVBLOCK : 255 32
AELEM : 0 ----
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As your line is performing poorer than expected, BT must open a fault and organise an Openreach engineer appointment with you.
Edited by deleted (Wed 25-Jan-17 16:11:35)
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Thanks, William I will try and get somebody to ring them tomorrow.
Edited by deleted (Wed 25-Jan-17 16:21:07)
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For comparison with similar lines that appear to have faults (bridged taps), look at jelv or Plutox.
jelv G's plot is a wonderful example of a bridged tap showing the primary frequency at 1.4MHz and then the 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th and 11th harmonics. Although with an 80/20 sync and 63/26 attainable it is not too much to worry about! I wonder what the attainable would be without the problem.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
M H C
taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
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Alternatively they are within their rights to say, we have looked and see you are below what the original guarantee was so will let you leave penalty free and you can move to another provider.
The guarantee does not mean heaven and earth will be moved to bring a line up to that speed.
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The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
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True, but I was just stating that they'll need to at least send an Openreach engineer to look into it.
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Goodness, that Vigor 130 has made a significant difference to your speed. Also, IMO you are lucky to have G.INP enabled. I guess your HG612 is on its way out.
I see from your stats a couple of years ago you were getting similar speeds although your upload is a lot down presumably due to the lack of G.INP on the upstream.
Max: Upstream rate = 21614 Kbps, Downstream rate = 56632 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 20000 Kbps, Downstream rate = 52836 Kbps Looks fine to me but you may feel like giving BT a go as you're below the guaranteed speed.
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Only said anything because the word MUST implied too much certainty and could give the impression to others that the guaranteed speed was something they were forced to keep a line too.
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The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
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House phone works OK no noise on the line,
My reference to a "noisy line" was very much meant as noisy to all the frequencies that DSL is using, rather than noisy in the audible frequency range.
What your modem hears when it tries to sync is the equivalent of sitting in a pub, with 20 other conversations going on around you.
put the HH5 back inline but it must be faulty as It will not connect to internet,
I wonder if this is a problem because your HG612 has allowed G.INP to activate on the line, and the HH5 cannot cope with that.
so have replaced with the V130 better rate than HG612 but still not in the BT range for my line.
I'd be tempted to leave the HG612 in place ... at least while you are reporting the fault to BT, and Openreach are investigating.
The slower speed might make them slightly more likely to deal with the issue.
I believe a pair swap would be worth trying but how do I get BT to agree?
You probably can't ask your ISP to order Openreach to do a pair swap. All you can realistically do, for now, is to report the slow speed and ask for an engineer.
When the engineer turns up, he'll have to go through his tests first, and may make some other suggestions. I guess you have to play it by ear to figure out if he is fobbing you off.
Note that the ISP may need you to go through some rigmarole before they'll book an engineer. Probably including use of the test socket, an alternative filter and an alternative router.
What would be the cost?
There shouldn't be a cost for a fault fix. But I don't think there's a way to order a pair-swap even if you were willing to pay.
I have a hearing problems and find it difficult using the phone and online chat all I get is the Indian support team (not helpful at all)
I believe you can ask the Indians to put you through to someone in the UK. I also thought a lot of the support work had been brought back to the UK.
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Update
Contacted BT help and support and connected to UK help center who were very helpful and polite, he remotely ran some tests at the exchange that showed the line was under performing he said for my line the minimum download should be 57Mb and arranged for an engineer to check it out next Tuesday 31 Jan, it would either be a Broadband boost or network engineer.
Fingers crossed he will improve the connection.
John
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Your line isn't banded, so if you wish to retain G.INP it might be worth asking any visiting engineer not to perform a DLM reset. This will definitely remove G.INP and it definitely won't return. It appears the only ECI cabinet users who still have G.INP retained it after the failed rollout due to having BT TV (possibly only UHD customers?)
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Yes, I have BT TV, you have me worried now, if I do manage an increase to 57Mb or above I think I will gamble on a reset and hope they roll out G.inp to ECI cabinets.
John
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BT did announce that they'd found issues with both ECI cabinets and some modems (can't remember if the modems were ECI ones or not), and that fixes were being done.
The 3rd attempt at rolling G.INP out to ECI cabinets is due this Spring.
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Thank you WWWombat for all the help and info very greatly and appreciated will see how it goes.
John
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I'm pretty sure it was ECI modems because they only supported downstream G.INP.
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I'm pretty sure it was ECI modems because they only supported downstream G.INP. ECI cabinets only support downstream G.INP, so the modem only supporting downstream would not be a problem.
The problem was it wasn't working on the downstream, failing even to obtain a PPP session. That led to those lines requiring a DLM reset to remove G.INP just to get back online. I don't think the ECI modems were the only problem though
Yes, I have BT TV, you have me worried now, if I do manage an increase to 57Mb or above I think I will gamble on a reset and hope they roll out G.inp to ECI cabinets.
John As already said it's expected to return in the Spring. I was simply pointing out that observations show only BT TV customers (at the time of the failed rollout) kept G.INP, and if the lines reset then DLM no longer applies it back.
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when they try again this spring hopefully they dont abort before my line even gets attempted at g.inp, last year I didnt see g.inp at all as they started rolling back before my line hit the top of the queue. 
The problem is not helped by having CPs as the middle man, its showed time and time again that the message gets muddled between openreach and the end user, in addition the CPs priorities will be to keep their tech supports down.
So when there was some lines (a minority) not able to get PPP sessions, the CPs were probably pressuring openreach to revert the changes instead of push on with the rollout and fix the issues for those few lines as a seperate task, as they wouldnt have liked the increased load on their call centre's.
I suspect the problem devices were fritzboxes and asus modems. I dont remember seeing reports from people using openreach supplied modems and anything using a broadcom chipset.
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I was using a Billion 8800NL when they did the ECI testing.
The problem I had was my line was stable on fastpath and then had G.Inp unnecessarily applied which cut my sync speed by 5 Mbps and then dropped another 2 Mbps when the level of G.Inp increased.
When it was finally abandoned there was another drop in sync when full interleaving was applied and stayed like that for a couple of months before DLM switched back to fastpath.
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yes but you did not have the PPPoE issue which is what what caused the rollback.
On Hauwei some kind of gain seems enabled alongside g.inp allowing good sync speeds either matching or even in excess of fast path, whilst that possibly wasnt the cause on ECI.
Edited by Chrysalis (Fri 27-Jan-17 11:45:12)
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Ooops...
That's because a 100-pair cable is internally constructed in bundles of 25-pairs known as "binders
Except that it's not, the unit's, bunches or 'whippings' are in units of 10 on UK PET cable....
1st five pairs with a white A leg, blue, orange, green, brown, slate, then the next 5 with a red A leg .... and that's the bundle.
Doh.
There's probably a segment of my brain that intuitively knew that UK cables came in units of 10, a long,long time ago. I'll have seen plenty of descriptions of the colour patterns on larger cables back then, even if I didn't play with the cables myself.
Roll on a couple of decades, and all the crosstalk & vectoring stuff, of which I've read a lot in the last few years, talks about 25-pair binders. Somehow the old &new info never quite joined together.
It'll make the details for UK cables subtly different, I guess. 10x10 boxes on the heatmaps for starters.
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Update
Openreach engineer tested my broadband line today but found no faults with the line he tested using a line tester and laptop the download speed recorded at 45Mb with a max of 45Mb achievable with 18 FES recorded, he fitted a new Mk3 filter to master socket.
One of the things I don�t understand is that with my Vigor 130 I record a downstream of 49Mb but OR tester only records 45 this is the speed I receive using the HG612 modem, are there different testers for ECI and Huawei cabinets as the Vigor is Lantic and HG612 has Broadcom chips he said the distance to the cabinet is around 250Mts that�s less than I had estimated.
He ran his tests at the cabinet, called the diagnostic center and told me that�s all the line is capable of. question is do I keep the fault open or just accept that�s the best I will acheive. BT customer service say my line should be a minimum of 57Mb, I believe that at 250Mts to the cabinet with an attenuation of 14 with a stable SNRM I should be receiving a lot higher speed.
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