Left hand, right hand

Unsurprisingly, things have not gone to plan with the installation of fibre at our property. You may recall the database error that delayed ordering by the best part of two months but that appears insignificant compared to what we're up against now.

It was thought that when BT connected the three properties that are we part of 15 years ago, that they'd dug a trench to the main road and fed the phone lines through this to us, so that installation of fibre would be a matter of pulling the fibre through this trench and Bob's your uncle. It turns out that they'd just buried armoured cable through the field and there is no trench. The poles that were there prior to this have long gone (they'd needed replacing, hence the armoured cable instead).

When our neighbour ordered fibre a few weeks before us, an engineer came out on a recce and realised there was no trench so sent another engineer to come out and discuss the situation with the land owners and because it was BTs decision to get rid of the poles originally that a new trench would be dug instead for fibre to be pulled through. So far so good.

Today (the date originally given for our installation before the lack of trench came to light) an engineer arrives to install our fibre and it is immediately apparent that he knows nothing of the trench issue or any previous visits to our neighbours. He then calls his supervisor who likewise is in the dark but says that OR would only go as far as paying for poles and any trench would be our expense (even though this situation has come about because Openreach (or BT as it was then) cut corners to do an installation on the cheap many years ago.

So it appears that,

a) Openreach (or BT before them) do not keep records or plans as to how properties are served by them
b) currently, the left hand of Openreach does not know what the right hand is doing, otherwise there would have been some sort of stop order or communication between engineers when a common problem is highlighted that effects orders in close geographical proximity. Instead, two engineers who could have been working on other jobs came today to be told what two other engineers had discovered two weeks ago.
c) we're going halves for a 150m trench to be dug. I've got no problem with this as I can't expect OR to spend what might be thousands of pounds in groundwork just to get a couple of line rentals and broadband subscriptions in return. Having spoken to another OR engineer (a friend not working in our area), it is often cheaper for customers in this situation to have the ground work done privately by someone with a digger or tractor. Does anyone have a any rough ideas of cost for this sort of work? Are there any minimum requirements that need to be met to satisfy OR?

The duct specification is laid out at https://www.ournetwork.openreach.co.uk/resources/sit...

You would need to know if a chamber needs adding, and the duct and preformed chamber pieces are supplied by Openreach.

So cost is labour plus cost of digger, a quick call to a local builder asking how much to lay 150m of PVC 90mm pipe across what ever the land is, e.g. soft dig, pavement, drive will give you an idea.

So cost is labour plus cost of digger, a quick call to a local builder asking how much to lay 150m of PVC 90mm pipe across what ever the land is, e.g. soft dig, pavement, drive will give you an idea.

And that those chosen to dig require serious insurances if any of it is on public land.

BT / Openreach do have a telephone number for answering questions about what you would have to do.

In Kent, Gigaclear used a company called Wingnut to dig trenches and lay ducts and fibres. Wingnut replaced an earlier contractor who did not do a good job of compressing the ground before laying tarmac where trenches were under roads. Wingnut might be interested in the type of work you want done.

Thank you

In reply to a post by fiddler:

So it appears that,

a) Openreach (or BT before them) do not keep records or plans as to how properties are served by them
b) currently, the left hand of Openreach does not know what the right hand is doing, otherwise there would have been some sort of stop order or communication between engineers when a common problem is highlighted that effects orders in close geographical proximity. Instead, two engineers who could have been working on other jobs came today to be told what two other engineers had discovered two weeks ago.

a) They do but the records are prone to errors which Openreach compound by refusing to accept they are wrong.
b) Unfortunately Openreach have multiple hands, none of which know what the others are doing. Sometimes due to inefficiency, sometimes a deliberate policy,

I have seen and even been in the trenchers Gigaclear use and they did not use any duct ! Yes the fibre tubing was buried direct in the Ground . What could / will go wrong ? This was in Berks.

From what I have seen the Gigaclear cables under roads are in trenches, those that cross fields are direct burial.

This was in Berks.

I was in Woolhampton last week and saw their handiwork with trenches crossing to little 'its' under a plastic lid outside the properties.

Were you round that way too MC ?

In reply to a post by Michael_Chare:

From what I have seen the Gigaclear cables under roads are in trenches, those that cross fields are direct burial.

But are they in duct ? the ones i have seen were not.

Yes bud.

Plenty of overseas operators doing the same and am sure others in the UK too.

Openreach would hit problems if they did the same due to the PIA rules

Ducts, I should have said ducts, not trenches. Green plastic ducts about 4" in diameter. Underriver project in Kent

Edited by Michael_Chare (Mon 08-May-17 21:20:48)

Thought so... the earlier post should have read ' little pits' ...

Their service can't come soon enough for some of the telephonic abysses on those mean streets .

So...

Hub arrived this week (original internal visit was due on the 11th).

Get home yesterday to find a card through the door to the effect that they'd been to connect the fibre but couldn't find the fibre outside. Neighbour (also in same position) was home and told them that OR had yet to dig up the field so the engineer had nothing to connect.

Engineer replied that OR "don't tell them anything".

I had thought of cancelling the visit before this week but from past experience that ends up cancelling the order in entirety.


Perhaps the "change a light bulb" joke should be changed to the modern equivalent of "installing fibre"

The last we knew, you and the neighbour were thinking of doing the digging and duct laying yourselves, and asking for advice.

Did Openreach change their mind and decide to do it then?

Whisper it quietly but yes.

According to our neighbour (the land owner), the surveyor came out again, had a mooch around with one of those measuring wheels and said they'd do it.

It's been passed to the dig team, fingers crossed they'll be coming on the 25th.

And for that I am truly grateful. Just feel somewhat embarrassed at taking up the resources and also delaying others' internal installations due to engineers turning up here with nothing to connect.

Nothing to be embarrassed about. All completely out of your control and simple poor project management.

In reply to a post by gerarda:

In reply to a post by fiddler:

So it appears that,

a) Openreach (or BT before them) do not keep records or plans as to how properties are served by them

a) They do but the records are prone to errors which Openreach compound by refusing to accept they are wrong.

On this specific subject, I've seen records from around where I live which BT/OR (it was about three years ago) considered "current", but cannot be from any later than about 1995/6, and from some indications, much earlier. It was on a friend's work (i.e. BT) laptop; he was a precision testing (or fault testing?) engineer then. They were clearly scans of printed paper schematics. The road I live in and about 4 other roads surrounding it weren't on there, as they were all built in 1999/2000. He didn't deliberately access old records or anything... not that there would be any reason for those to be easily accessible, anyway. It was doubly surprising because althout I said it was something like 3 years ago, my estate (and older, surrounding ones) already had FTTC activated via an ECI DSLAM; it went live in 2012. Now, the PCP has an extension pod (not G.fast) and a 288 Huawei box on the other side of it (I think I posted photos a while ago as it seemed like an odd arrangement). Anyway, I hope their records have now been updated and those old scans of 80s/90s bits of paper are consigned to the archives.

Edited by deleted (Wed 17-May-17 21:31:09)

We have far far newer records on the works laptop , GeoHUB is very good and very much upto date.A PTO should know about it. Sounds like your mate has shown you schem plans off Network Records and they are scans of the old paper cable prints.Ask any real jointer and he will tell that real paper prints are often the best to use when full size, not so good on a laptop.

Edited by MC31 (Thu 18-May-17 19:56:02)

So...

The left hand, right hand saga continues.

After original surveyor came out and said a trench would be dug, there were at least half a dozen separate visits from teams, "here to put poles up". Each one turned away by neighbour (landowner) as that was not what was agreed.

Same surveyor attends again and after ten minutes realizes that he's visited the site already and leaves to "sort it out".

More teams with poles arrive, same outcome.

A different surveyor came yesterday, had a mooch around, agrees to dig trench... but from a different direction to one already planned, from a different direction from where our phone line comes.

I despair...

Well, after a few more surveyor visits when they realised that it had already been surveyed, two more surveyors came on Monday of last week to say that work would start that week.

Then nothing until an e-mail yesterday to say that work would start today at 9am.

At 9:30 a lorry with a digger and a van arrived and after much huffing and puffing getting the digger and duct off the lorry, digging began at around 11am then stopped for an hour lunch at half twelve then carried on until 3 and stopped for the day.

Apparently, they'd been on the road since 7:30 so that's when their day starts and then ends when they get back to the depot.

So 3 men traveled 4 hours and had an hour lunch for 3 hours of digging (20 metres by eye).

Still, at least the digger and duct is offloaded so perhaps tomorrow will be more productive.

The British Way to Get Things Done ...

brilliant

Update

Friday saw 40m dug between 9:30 and 2:30, including having to dig up some of the previous day's work as they realised they hadn't put any blue nylon rope in to pull up the fibre when they finish.

They reckon one more day and they'll be done by end of play on Monday. While past performance Is not indicative of future results, 60m in two days does not bid well for the remaining 80-90m in one day.

About 30m today,,,

Many moons ago, when we'd forgotten to put in draw cord, we just attached a plastic bag to the end of the reel and blew it through with a compressor after .... simple enough.

I like that!

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Many moons ago, when we'd forgotten to put in draw cord, we just attached a plastic bag to the end of the reel and blew it through with a compressor after .... simple enough.

Or use a mouse with the rope taped to its tail and entice it with some cheese the other end LOL.

Jokes aside, I have seen what you said done so yeah it does work.

I myself have used a ping pong ball (which was a few mm smaller than the pipe) with string attached to it and used a hoover the other end and sucked it through, worked first try.

Word of caution, Ping Pong Ball needs to be bigger than the hoover pipe LOL.

Paul

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Many moons ago, when we'd forgotten to put in draw cord, we just attached a plastic bag to the end of the reel and blew it through with a compressor after .... simple enough.

That is how they put a liner in my gas pipe under my drive. Blew it through the old pipe with a compressor, mid winter it was and it was cold having the central heating off although they did offer us the lend of heater fans.

So, about 40m yesterday, interrupted for half an hour by some bloke in a very high vis jacket stopping work to get what I assume were ID cards (all the workers were reaching for their wallets) and them all having a nice chat in a circle.

So 20m left for today, no problem.

Except they came early to take the digger that they'd left overnight and then promptly departed.

No clue as to when they'll be back and the works office e-mail says I need to speak to BT.

Edited by deleted (Wed 26-Jul-17 16:04:37)

In reply to a post by fiddler:

the works office e-mail says I need to speak to BT.

Maybe its me being paranoid, but that doesn't sound good.

Have you spoken to BT, if so what did they say?

Paul

It's Openreach you really need to speak to

i find it amazing that you got them to even do the work (at least you have Fibre by the end of it, emm eventually)

I myself have used a ping pong ball (which was a few mm smaller than the pipe) with string attached to it and used a hoover the other end and sucked it through, worked first try.

As an idea Paul, that sucks.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

I myself have used a ping pong ball (which was a few mm smaller than the pipe) with string attached to it and used a hoover the other end and sucked it through, worked first try.

As an idea Paul, that sucks.

LOL.

Paul

A further e-mail from them, after some light badgering from myself and the neighbour, to say that there had been a misunderstanding in the office about how to proceed with the final segment (mixture of hard rock and concrete).

Surveyor came out again this morning (no one around to check or discuss) who says there's 50m left to do and they'll get back to us with a plan and time-scale....

As I understand it, OR sub-contracted the work to one company (local-ish), who then sub-contracted it to another (really not local), hence most of the working day spent driving to and from site instead of doing the physical work and simple queries needing to pass through several people to be answered.

So, a month on from my last post.

Diggers had finished their work about 3 weeks ago. A week later, Openreach's external team arrived and ground to a halt immediately.

1) the nylon rope to pull the fibre up the drive was stuck solid and they suspected that at some point when the dig team were filling back in and tamping down, that they crushed the pipe and snagged the rope.
2) the hole in the ground where the pipes connecting where the two properties met the fibre coming up the drive was in the wrong place meaning that the bend back to our property was too tight for the fibre so this would have to me moved.

Relevant permission to dig paperwork filled in and passed back to the dig team. The Openreach engineer was very apologetic and gave me his mobile number to call him back later in the week for an update (seemed to be the only person amongst the many that have been on site who knew what he was doing, so a case of beer fro him when all this is over). Later in the week, he still hadn't heard back from the sub-contractors. A gentle e-mail from myself to them was met with the stock response of, "you need to speak to BT" which seemed pointless now that Openreach were involved.

Then, out of the blue on Thursday, the dig team arrived... then left within an hour as they didn't have the job order to sort out the junction connection the two properties to the fibre. A quick text to the Openreach engineer and permission from him to forward his mobile to the dig team resulted in them coming back the following day to meet him on site to "get it sorted".

So, that's where we stand. Apparently, fingers crossed, the dig work is done and what's left is pulling the fibre up the drive and then bringing it into the houses.