FTTC install - no engineer visit & master socket

Not sure if this belongs in the Zen forum seeing as it's more a general FTTC query but...

So I've recently ordered Zen for my new place. Having had FTTC before, I was a little surprised when Zen said an engineer visit wasn't needed this time. Looking into it, I see that this is now A Thing nowadays.

Although I'm not sure what sort of master socket I've got (I need to have a proper look), I'm fairly sure it's an old-style one where microfilters will be needed.

So my question is - is it worth considering swapping the faceplate of the master socket out for a NTE5 to get better speeds? I see that microfilters can slow down the line which I'm not especially keen on. Apologies if this is a common question, but strangely enough, can't find very many posts from people in the same situation...

Zen support for retail customers has become rubbish. See this thread for the latest example.

Both there and to you they are saying it's our problem, not theirs.

You should have been offered an "engineer install" if you asked them about your doubts over the master socket. It costs them more, so they don't tell you it still exists.

To be fair, the same applies to almost all ISPs. But Zen claim to be better than Sky, BT, TalkTalk, Plusnet etc.

Well, to be fair, I haven't had a proper search for the master socket... also it was only just now that I realised this was how FTTC installs were being done nowadays.

£120 sounds like a lot! I think I will wait until I've had a chance to check what I've got, and fingers crossed, only a new faceplate will be needed.

You need to find the master and upload a photo somewhere. We don't really know what you/we are dealing with, so can't advise on your best course of action.

It is true that self-install (with a supplied microfilter if you take the ISP's router) is now the norm. But if you look at the FTTC estimates for your line with this checker a self-install is likely to give the "Impacted" speeds rather than the "Clean" range.

Ok, I'm not sure what I DO have...

The phone socket nearest door, which I would have suspected was the master socket is not even wired up(!). It sort of matches what I read in http://www.wppltd.demon.co.uk/WPP/Wiring/UK_telephon...

Anyway, without further ado - http://imgur.com/a/uYB88

Any ideas what sort of setup I have?

In reply to a post by Mrdini:

Ok, I'm not sure what I DO have...

The phone socket nearest door, which I would have suspected was the master socket is not even wired up(!). It sort of matches what I read in http://www.wppltd.demon.co.uk/WPP/Wiring/UK_telephon...

Anyway, without further ado - http://imgur.com/a/uYB88

Any ideas what sort of setup I have?

A total mess that will be full of issues.

I cannot see the wires in the first back box too clearly but would guess that there is an incoming line that is twisted to two sets of wires that go to te other sockets.

Two masters on a line - NEVER should be installed. The second has CW1308 phone wire, as for the third picture - no idea what that is wired with.

Somewhere in the first picture, is there an incoming wire? and if so what colours are used.

Agreed, I reckon the feed is in the top back box somewhere.

It looks like a right dogs dinner ......

Of those three masters, only the last is a BT unit and even that has been attacked and the surge suppressor removed (latest instals are now done without it). That LJ2 probably dates from the early 90's.

First thing to do is decide where you need wired handsets. Then decide how to get BT to come and regularise the installation.

Can you check to see if you have a "hitching post" outside your front door? As whoever did that install probably used one for his horse.

I've updated the Imgur album with a more close-up look - I believe the white pipe is where the line enters the property...

I'm not sure what I'd be looking for in terms of a "hitching post"!

The thing is because I'm deaf, I'm not really bothered about sorting this out for telephony - all I'd want to do is sort this out for decent FTTC.

For what it's worth, here are the stats from the Fritz!Box...

Current throughput kbit/s 47330 9045

BT address checker...

VDSL Range A (Clean) 78 59 20 17.5 52.3 Available -- -- -- --
VDSL Range B (Impacted) 64.1 39.8 20 9.4 32.2 Available -- -- -- --

Is it worth going back to Zen & saying "I'd like an engineer visit please" or is this outside the work covered by a typical engineer visit?

Hitching Post - where Cowboys ties up their horses! Because one certainly visited when that work was done.

If that is the incoming, then you can get a master installed at that point with a filter and both voice and data split there.

The white cable with Blue/White and White Blue wires (and others) can be used if required to feed an extension socket for voice and if required data at the location of image 2.

What is really needed is "regularisation" of the master - it is chargeable and must be done by a BT Tech - no one else is permitted to do it.


Your speeds certainly show that the wiring is having a nasty effect on the line capabilities.

Edit: Ooops. As you have line stats your connection is in place. That complicates things with Zen . (End of edit).

In reply to a post by Mrdini:

I'm not sure what I'd be looking for in terms of a "hitching post"!

As in whoever did the wiring was a cowboy, and cowboys need somewhere to hitch (tie up) their horse when they dismount.

I'm not sure where this "white pipe" is in your pictures. What MHC was referring to is where the overhead wire reaches the building and where it goes from there to enter the house. With possibly a small junction box or two.

If the incoming wire is underground then I don't know how you find the entry point.

As Zarjaz says, your wiring looks like a dog's dinner. Only an Openreach engineer is going to sort that out. You have no chance as you simply haven't got the equipment to find out which socket matters. Which is the first, then how to give you the optimum wiring for your FTTC.

For instance, when I moved into this house many years ago, before the modern NTE5 units existed, the incoming wire hit the house at roof level at one corner, went from there across the front and round the other side then down the wall to enter through the window frame. With a junction box in that run just under the lip of the roof of the carport.

A socket was installed just inside that window with two wires leading back into the carport. One going from there to the back of the house and ending up coming in through the back door frame to another socket, and the other going back round the front of the house at then coming in through an upstairs bedroom window frame.

The master was the one inside the back door.

Edited by RobertoS (Sun 04-Jun-17 12:32:50)

I took a long ime to post, so duplicated your cowboy explanation .

Re the chargeable aspect, if the OP manages to convince Zen that an engineer install (with perhaps a "Home Wiring Solution" also ordered by Zen) is needed then I don't think there should be any extra cost to the OP. A detailed check through their T & Cs needs doing but I haven't time at the moment.

See my edit at the start of my previous post.

Edited by RobertoS (Sun 04-Jun-17 12:34:00)

Ha! I know what hitching posts are, but thought it was something specific in the context of BT installs!

It's a flat so I assume the white pipe is where the wires enter the property (as nearest front door and backs onto the corridor). I'll go back to Zen tomorrow and see what they say (as line & FTTC is provided by them).

Fingers crossed!

Ah! Is there a utility room housing all the electricity meters and possibly gas meters? Plus a load of phone master sockets or similar perhaps?

Starting to think I might possibly be opening up an hornets nest if this is actually where all the phone sockets branch off from....

Added to http://imgur.com/a/uYB88. Why would there be a wire leading from an electricity supply to that?!

Edited by deleted (Sun 04-Jun-17 13:54:19)

Cannot see where the white lead actually goes, it is hidden behind what looks like a mains cable, the white lead looks like telephone wiring and has no purpose going into the mains, but see no evidence that it is.

In reply to a post by Mrdini:

Starting to think I might possibly be opening up an hornets nest if this is actually where all the phone sockets branch off from....

Added to http://imgur.com/a/uYB88. Why would there be a wire leading from an electricity supply to that?!

Minor problem with the URL - should be http://imgur.com/a/uYB88 without the full stop.

In the new pic, the brown box on the right is where several lines terminate. From there they are fed direct to your flat. That box needs a cover on too! But don't touch any of it.

The link to the electricity supply is probably to earth, I would hope, as in some cases an earth is required but not with normal phones.

It really is a mess and I don;t think you will get Zen to sort it in the normal course - you may have to pay to get BT Openreach to tidy it all up.

Have no fear, I don't plan on touching anything! I'm an IT programmer, not a phone engineer!</McCoy>

Hmm... So seeing as Zen is supplying the line, wouldn't they ordinarily be the ones who'll have to sort this out? As you say that they won't normally sort it. Actually, thinking a bit about this - because this is outside my flat and thusly on the other side of my master socket, would it be the problem of the property management company/BT? (although, TBH, I have a bit more faith in having Zen sort this out as they're good with this sort of stuff in my experience. I have no idea how experienced the property management company would be in this area).

Because this is a new flat I've just recently bought, I'd definitely be extremely keen in sorting this out properly for once and all (i.e. if it was a rental property, I'd be "Meh. Not throwing money away to fix up landlord's property/problem. Let it be" ).

Link fixed, ta!

Edited by deleted (Sun 04-Jun-17 14:08:32)

As part of a usual broadband order then no this is not sorted out and changed when engineer installs stopped being the norm. If I recall your speeds are not well below the range given either (or was that another poster?)

Costs for resolving, i.e. regularisation is £25 + visit charge (around £120 extra)

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

If I recall your speeds are not well below the range given either (or was that another poster?)

Hmmm, don't think that was me. Haven't posted here regarding speeds aside from the router stats I pasted earlier in this thread.

Costs for resolving, i.e. regularisation is £25 + visit charge (around £120 extra)

If that's the case, that seems like a bargain given the mess I seem to have!

Your stats

Actual 47330 9045
and forecast
(Clean) 78-59 / 20-17.5
(Impacted) 64.1-39.8 / 20-9.4

You are within the lower limits of Impacted on Downstream although Upstream is a little below. You stand little chance of using those to get a visit.

As a Zen voice customer, they will need to arrange the visit however it will be BT that actually arrives (Openreach or OR sub-con). The only other possibility is if your voice circuit is sub-standard - either to low in volume or with too much background noise. Try a little negotiation with Zen ad see if you can get a visit at less than full cost.

I have no idea what the voice quality is like - keep in mind I'm deaf!

I suppose I could try the angle that for me, the quality of the FTTC connection is as important to me as the voice line is for an hearing person and seeing where I get.... (Which is true, I suppose!)

Pester the owner(s) of the building and point out that the utility wiring is an absolute joke, and could easily soon lead to multiple phones not functioning in the event that 999 needed to be dialled from any phone, by anyone (including yours). You could say that you work in IT and know the absolute correct route to get the official/correct people (i.e. Openreach) to put it right, and it will only cost them ~£150*, and no further fuss for them to deal with or arrange.

*Will that be £25+£120 for OR to only sort out Mrdini's line, or will they try to "put right" what's there? I'm starting to assume it'll turn into the £120 visit cost plus £25 per line which needs standardising, won't it? Plus parts, if other people have got setups which include half a socket which was pilfered from Alexander Graham Bell's old house. OK, this is a terrible idae, forget it.

Seriously, I suppose it depends on the building owner/manager. The mess of wires and fact that specific professional tools and skills (and parts) are needed might scare him or her into paying £xxx for it to be all nicely rectified, with repeated mentions of emergency calls for anyone in the building.

Edited by deleted (Mon 05-Jun-17 22:47:35)