Think about FTTPoD

Before i start bothering ISPs I wonder if I can make a rough guesstimate on the installation cost. According to OR

"Openreach will calculate the relevant distance band for an Order using the radial distance from the relevant NGA aggregation node, calculated using the details recorded by Openreach". (source)

I'm not sure what an NGA aggregation node is and where they are. Something different from the green street cabinets? Or are they attached to the cabinets?

If I knew the location I could work out the distance. A couple of kilometres and its a case of forget it...

Can I work out where the NGA is?

Can I work out where the NGA is?

No, it will be in an underground box possibly near a cabinet but possible thry could utilise a different node as the as cabinet is irrelevant

Your best bet is probably to ask an OR Engineer working at/near your FTTC cabinet where the nearest agg node is.

Alternatively if you get a non-binding FTTPoD quote from fluidone.com then they'll give you the agg node band classification and associated costs. But I suspect you'll pay at least £2k (+vat) for even a Band A installation and then obviously there's the £300 monthly service charges on top of that.

Edited by deleted (Tue 25-Jul-17 09:05:02)

Chances of coming across someone who knows what an AN is let alone where they are and how they are connected is pretty remote. Better chance to ask here

In reply to a post by baby_frogmella:

obviously there's the £300 monthly service charges on top of that.

Why do I have £200/month in my head? Are different ISPs charging different monthly fees? Is it a two or three year contract? I wouldn't mind £200 over three years but not £300 over two!

MrS mentioned £200 earlier - I think there may be some services that could be available at that but the only one we have seen actually talked about on here recently is Fluidone which people are paying £300 per month for. There is a very limited market of suppliers for FTTPoD and they are prices aimed at small business rather than home users.

In reply to a post by witchunt:

Chances of coming across someone who knows what an AN is let alone where they are and how they are connected is pretty remote. Better chance to ask here

OR bod working on my FTTPoD installation knew where my nearest agg node was and how it was all connected up, I've also seen him working at my FTTC cab as well. But I agree not every OR engineer will know.

It's more like £300 over 3.

Edited by deleted (Tue 25-Jul-17 09:15:00)

In reply to a post by Woolwich:

In reply to a post by baby_frogmella:

obviously there's the £300 monthly service charges on top of that.

Why do I have £200/month in my head? Are different ISPs charging different monthly fees? Is it a two or three year contract? I wouldn't mind £200 over three years but not £300 over two!

As well as covering the OR/BT Wholesale costs & their own backhaul costs (which will be high for an unlimited 330/30 service), I'm sure Fluidone are also charging a small premium as they are the only ISP currently offering the OR based service. Btw after vat, its £360 a month for 3 years...but after 3 years you can migrate to a cheap as chips native FTTP service from BT (if you wished). If you live in SW England/S Wales then Spectrum Internet can also offer you FTTPoD provided they have LLU'd your exchange. Their prices are around the £250 pm mark + installation of course.

In reply to a post by baby_frogmella:

Btw after vat, its £360 a month for 3 years...but after 3 years you can migrate to a cheap as chips native FTTP service from BT (if you wished). If you live in SW England/S Wales then Spectrum Internet can also offer you FTTPoD provided they have LLU'd your exchange. Their prices are around the £250 pm mark + installation of course.

Don't live in the south west but I can reclaim the VAT... Talking with my current ISP recently about something and they said they didn't advertise FTTPoD as its so expensive. I took that to mean they'd sell it to me if I really really insisted. So maybe there are more suppliers than first meets the eye.

In reply to a post by Woolwich:

In reply to a post by baby_frogmella:

Btw after vat, its £360 a month for 3 years...but after 3 years you can migrate to a cheap as chips native FTTP service from BT (if you wished). If you live in SW England/S Wales then Spectrum Internet can also offer you FTTPoD provided they have LLU'd your exchange. Their prices are around the £250 pm mark + installation of course.

Don't live in the south west but I can reclaim the VAT... Talking with my current ISP recently about something and they said they didn't advertise FTTPoD as its so expensive. I took that to mean they'd sell it to me if I really really insisted. So maybe there are more suppliers than first meets the eye.

Prior to placing the order with Fluidone, I tried all all the usual suspects BT Biz, AAISP, Zen, IDnet, Pulse8 et al and none of them currently sell FTTPoD. Even the more specialist providers such as Gradwell have stopped selling it. An ISP will only sell it to you if they have it in their ordering systems...I'm pretty sure no ISP will sell it due to a customers "insistence" (akin to haggling in a Bangkok flea market) - but I am happy to be proved wrong

Edited by deleted (Tue 25-Jul-17 09:52:04)

NOTE: Three year contracts are banned for consumers and SME by Ofcom, so a common way around that is to charge 3 years of costs in a 2 year contract.

As for pricing my £200 figure, is just a ball park and not a firm figure, the numbers taking FTTPoD is so small that it may not have a standard list price anyway. Certainly the install fee is very variable.

For Fluidone it looks like the standard installation fee is £3,595 (includes Juniper CPE and FTTPoD Connection Charge) and then £310/month. That's what goes on the order form before the Openreach survey gets completed.

I've just signed up, now waiting (semi-patiently) for my Ag node to become available so the order can actually get processed by Openreach.

Is that inclusive of VAT?

Just had a look at the order, it doesn't actually say but it's company to company so I'd guess it's probably ex-VAT.

In reply to a post by raesene:

For Fluidone it looks like the standard installation fee is £3,595 (includes Juniper CPE and FTTPoD Connection Charge) and then £310/month.

When you say "standard installation fee" have Fluidone/Openreach done away with band pricing (based on dist to ag node) and just introduced a flat installation charge of £3595, subject to survey? Does it mention band classification (A to H) on your quotation?

Though it appears they have put up the monthly service charges by a tenner (i'm paying 300 notes pm)

Edited by deleted (Tue 25-Jul-17 13:05:48)

In reply to a post by raesene:

Just had a look at the order, it doesn't actually say but it's company to company so I'd guess it's probably ex-VAT.

It will definitely be ex-vat based on my dealings with them

well that's what they've gone with on my order, it could be just 'cause we're trying to move things along as much as possible whilst waiting for Openreach to sort the Ag node. It was looking promising about a month back but seems to have run into some more problems.

I'll be interested to see what the installation costs end up coming out as, as the cabling will almost all be over poles (we don't have much in the way of ducting out this way)...

In reply to a post by baby_frogmella:

Your best bet is probably to ask an OR Engineer working at/near your FTTC cabinet where the nearest agg node is.

It needs to teh the most appropriate/accessible. I have friends with a 3Mbps VDSL circuit and the nearest aggregation node for them is around 800m away, however if they went down the FTTPoD route they would be connected t one that is over 2km distant with all the extra charges.

In reply to a post by MHC:

I have friends with a 3Mbps VDSL circuit and the nearest aggregation node for them is around 800m away, however if they went down the FTTPoD route they would be connected t one that is over 2km distant with all the extra charges.

Openreach are NOT allowed to connected to other 2km so they will gained extra charge (that's fraud) if his nearer aggregation node is only 800m away. I can sense that Openreach will rip off everyones of secret aggregation node is 2km away where their genuine nearer aggregation node is below 800m.

It's all about MONEY that Openreach are after it.

I think Openreach engineer should take the customer to show him where the aggregation node are to proof is it 800m away or 2km hard to tell?

Edited by adslmax (Wed 26-Jul-17 12:31:14)

What makes you think they'd be connected to the one furthest away?

From how I read it for FoD, the charges are based upon a radius from your home to the nearest node.

Possibly the same reason property's aren't allways connected the nearest cab.
Perhaps ask for more info rather than come to your own dubious conclusions

That was my original understandig when looking into it for them. However, the BT price lis quotes:

2) The FTTP on Demand Distance Based Charge is the variable connection charge which will apply to all FTTP on Demand orders in addition to the fixed connection charge. Openreach will calculate the relevant distance band for an Order using the radial distance from the relevant NGA aggregation node, calculated using the details recorded by Openreach.

Relevant being the key word - not nearest.

In their case the nearest node has a hill in the way and for BT to provide service from that node would require about 5km of ducting or poles as there is a total absence of them on that route.

Fair enough

If only the pesky monthly charge was lowered I'd be tempted to pay a few grand installation fee!

Presumably it is down to cable routes. If the ducting doesn't go to the "nearest" node but to a different node then it could be more economical to install to a more distant node than to install ducts/poles for a new route.

The node that would be used is fairly close to the cabinet in use and has poles/ducts all the way. To use existing ducts to get to the "nearest" would result in around 9km and pass the suggested/relevant node on the way. New poles/ducts would never be implemented - massive cost to BT for no return.

However, there is pressure to get BT to install an AIO cabinet close to the cluster of houses - all of whom only get 1Mbps ADSL and 3Mbps VDSL.

The Openreach price list also states

96% of premises are expected to be within 2km of the nearest NGA Aggregation Node, and these will be covered by distance bands A to G.

So much for your tale of woe.

Does that say connected to? No.

The charges will be based on the RELEVANT node NOT the nearest.

In reply to a post by lee111s:

Fair enough

If only the pesky monthly charge was lowered I'd be tempted to pay a few grand installation fee!

I guess ISPs could price monthly FoD costs considerably lower (say £80 pm) but then install costs would rocket to £10k minimum. Take-up on those t&c's would probably be even lower, so i think its better paying a 4 figure sum upfront and the remainder over 36 months. I agree though, FoD isn't cheap in its current guise whichever way you look at it.

Sounds like you jumped to a wrong conclusion by not reading the price list fully.

If anyone is jumping to the wrong conclusion YOU are.

BT have stated and quoted and it is based on the more distant node and the reasoning explained.

I thought BT Business weren't selling FoD anymore? Unless it's an old quote?

It is/was ... hence the reason to push for an AIO close by with the residents picking up a large part of the costs.

BT Business still selling FTTPoD with undisclosed amount.

Are they actually selling it or are they advertising it? If it is advertising then might find it gets refused when an order is attempted.

No, they not advertising it online.

In reply to a post by adslmax:

BT Business still selling FTTPoD with undisclosed amount.

No, they've stopped selling it. As per my experience here and also ISPreview have confirmed this is indeed the case - see here. Though you might get some numpties at BTB who are happy to quote you but the order will fail when it comes to the crunch.

Edited by deleted (Thu 27-Jul-17 13:15:55)

No, my work boss has got FTTPoD activation date for next month as he ordered through BT Business as they accepted FTTPoD for his business company. Maybe BT Business axed for residential only.

In reply to a post by adslmax:

No, my work boss has got FTTPoD activation date for next month as he ordered through BT Business as they accepted FTTPoD for his business company. Maybe BT Business axed for residential only.

Your work boss must be an extremely lucky chap then as officially BTB are no longer selling FTTpoD. From ISPreview recently

Openreach have similarly confirmed to ISPreview that FTTPoD is still taking orders. Separately, after two long weeks of repeatedly trying to get a response, BT Business has also been able to confirm that �the customer was given inaccurate information by one of our customer service agents, for which we apologise.�

The ISP stated that they had decided to stop offering their BT Business Infinity on Demand product �due to low demand� and have instead chosen to continue focusing upon their dedicated ultrafast Ethernet products instead; much like most other ISPs.

How much did your boss pay for the installation and his monthly service charges? On a 36 months min term i presume?

This is the signed contract I had with BTB but which they reneged on:

http://www.imageupload.co.uk/image/BVpK
http://www.imageupload.co.uk/image/BVp5

Edited by deleted (Thu 27-Jul-17 13:34:31)

In reply to a post by baby_frogmella:

How much did your boss pay for the installation and his monthly service charges? On a 36 months min term i presume?

Will ask him next week as he is on holiday!

Openreach are in the middle of trialing something called "Fibre on Demand" (FOD) which is a replacement for FTTPoD - its supposed to be a much cheaper and faster method . You would be well advised to wait for that to happen.

In reply to a post by adslmax:

Openreach are in the middle of trialing something called "Fibre on Demand" (FOD) which is a replacement for FTTPoD.

Source?

On the third message by gt94sss2

https://community.bt.com/t5/Connected-Devices-Other/...

Your source is a poster on another forum?
In 2016?

Edited by deleted (Thu 27-Jul-17 14:02:04)

In reply to a post by adslmax:

On the third message by gt94sss2

https://community.bt.com/t5/Connected-Devices-Other/...

As batboy has stated that's just someone's opinion. Doesn't make it true!!

Edited by deleted (Thu 27-Jul-17 14:11:47)