How long does it take to increase FTTC capacity?

Hi all,

I've recently bought a house where unfortunately the wholesale checker shows 'Waiters list' for FTTC.

Whilst I was waiting for the purchase to go through I was checking every few days and could see it occasionally show 'Available' then 'Waiters list' a couple of days later, however now I've moved in sods law it's been stuck at 'Waiters list' for ages.

I'm not even going to bother ordering ADSL as the village is 7km+ from the exchange so speeds are <500k.

I've been in touch with the Digital Durham programme who, whilst are no longer involved as they only had funding for the original cabinet, have managed to get in touch with Openreach who have said that an additional cabinet is needed and they are waiting for a wayleave signature to commence work.

Does anybody know how long this process of installing a new cabinet takes? Are we talking weeks/months? The original cabinet is one of the small single door cabs and has been full for 3-4 months at least.

If you tell us what cabinet number & exchange it is there are a number of very resourceful members who may be able to help.

They may add a High Density extension to the existing cabinet or if demand is high enough they may add a 2nd cabinet.

Roughly how long does it usually take is like asking how long a piece of string is. In some cases it can be done in weeks, in others many months. Needing wayleaves is likely to make it the latter.

Keep checking the availability checker though as those brief "available" times you see are likely individual ports becoming available.

I thought as much, I did sigh when I read the word wayleave!

Cabinet 26 on exchange BISHOP AUCKLAND

Strangely it's a single, small cabinet that covers a fairly large village so it's not surprising that it filled up extremely quickly. Why they didn't put a bigger cabinet in to start with is beyond me!

Edited by deleted (Wed 21-Feb-18 11:14:45)

Cabinet P26 FTTC Available from 12th June 2012, being expanded by July 2018

That's only a date from codelook. Others have access to more detailed info. July sounds about right though.

To add to that, the current cabinet is an ECI.
These can't be expanded so it will be a whole new cabinet needed.
The new cabinet will be a Huawei.
Huawei cabinets are much better.

Edited by j0hn83 (Wed 21-Feb-18 11:21:18)

My FTTC cab (NSICL 6) went live in April 2014 and by the end of that year was full. Only in Nov 2017 was a second FTTC cab installed and provisioned. If no more line cards can be installed in your FTTC cab then expect to wait months/years before a second cab is installed and made live.

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

Cabinet P26 FTTC Available from 12th June 2012, being expanded by July 2018

That's only a date from codelook. Others have access to more detailed info. July sounds about right though.

Thanks for this! Stupid question, what is codelook? Is this a 'by July' that means it could be a lot sooner, or is it generally that it is scheduled to go live in July?

Have a look at this page:

http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/cabinet-lookup.htm

Code Look is a service provided by Magenta Telecom

https://www.telecom-tariffs.co.uk/codelook.htm

Thanks all.

Does anybody know at what point the FTTC ports are allocated to the user? Is it near realtime after placing an order?

I haven't bothered activating my line nor ordering ADSL as I don't want a pending order and being unable to order FTTC if a slot becomes available. What I'm wondering though, is if a slot becomes available and I then order FTTC (and telephone activation) will the port immediately get assigned to me whilst my telephone line is pending activation?

I'm in a similar position as the OP when I moved to a new build in Nov 2016 but I was fortunate enough to get the last available port on the cabinet but need a second line for work. Codelook said it would be expanded by April 2018 back in October 2017 but then changed recently to May 2018. A new Huawei cabinet appeared just over two weeks ago but hasn't been commissioned yet.

It's allocated in near real time to prevent order conflicts.

I'm in the same position, new build and 'waiting list'. Surely there's no need to order a phone line at this stage, especially as I'm never going to use it (ADSL too slow to bother with). I was thinking I could look up the DSL Checker and if a slot becomes available order a phone line and fibre connection at that point.

What could possibly go wrong?!

Thanks.

So if I order my telephone activation (£50 to activate it!!) at the same time as ordering FTTC, a port will be immediately allocated to me regardless of me not actually having an active line at that point?

My understanding from talking with my 'Service Provider' was you get a place on the 'waiting list' once you order fibre on a live phone line. No active POTS line, no place in queue.

The queue, by the way, is as long as a piece of string...

Usually with new builds you need to have an active phone line (possibly ADSL) before fibre shows up in the DSL checker.

Where did you get that idea? i.e. example time

I think this 'Waiting list' is a bit of a unicorn....no ISP seems to use it so it's a bit pointless.

FTTC has shown as available just using the address checker before (pre house purchase) and also via Plusnet's checker, so it seems I can order with no active line....if only somebody would cancel their fibre now so I can!

When I moved into my new build only ADSL was showing as available. After the phone and ADSL was set up and working, in 3 or 4 days the DSL checker started showing fibre was available.

Coming to think of it maybe only an active phone line is needed because the two show houses had monitored alarms so had active phone lines and fibre was showing for them months before they started building my house.

Edited by simon194 (Wed 21-Feb-18 14:17:23)

And where people are searching by address this should not be the case if the VDSL2 is available, have fixed a few cases where this does happen for people though.

In reply to a post by Woolwich:

My understanding from talking with my 'Service Provider' was you get a place on the 'waiting list' once you order fibre on a live phone line. No active POTS line, no place in queue.

The queue, by the way, is as long as a piece of string...

That's incorrect. Can I ask which ISP told you that?

I don't know of any ISP's who use the waiting list now.
The waiting list has also never been an automated process.
They don't automatically take x number of orders after a cabinet is full and put them on the waiting list (as you would expect a waiting list to work).
It was mainly used to put customers on the list if they had lost their port due to an error in the ordering/migration process, which was much more frequent in the early days of FTTC. There will be cases where users have persuaded their ISP to request a place on the list, but it has never been widely used.

I've only known of Plusnet and BT to use it, and Plusnet now no longer use it under any circumstances. BT likely have the same stance now unless there are exceptional circumstances (like losing your current port due to an ISP/OR screw up).

I was talking to Zen but I'm not saying that's what they said, just my understanding. I wasn't paying too much attention as I'd just been told I couldn't order fibre. I was in shock! But that was the message I got, order a line - ADSL even - and wait for fibre to become available.

Edited by Woolwich (Wed 21-Feb-18 17:55:53)

Having an active phone line makes no difference when ordering FTTC since they introduced SIM provisioning.
A port will be allocated to you at the time of ordering wether there is an active line or not.

It's actually a large ECI DSLAM inside that small cabinet.
But July seems a little bit pessimistic . Depends when they get round to standing the new cabinet. If it's soon then all things being equal it should be done before July

Edited by witchunt (Wed 21-Feb-18 20:27:40)

The email I received said they are waiting for a wayleave signature before work can commence.

What sort of work needs to go on after the stand the cabinet? Is it a few months worth?

It's the same as for the 1st cabinet. The one advantage possibly that There Is existing fibre tubing to the aggregation node already present nearby.
Will most likely need a new power supply connection. They have tried other options using a supply from existing cabinets but don't believe these are likely options at this time.
Copper ties may need additional civils work to provide duct space to the PCP. That could all takeca few months to get up and running, especially the mains supply.

Been checking every day and so far it hasn't moved from waiters list, damn!

I'd have thought somebody would have moved house by now!

Should be getting my FTTPoD quote back shortly too, if it's a sensible amount of money it may be considered!

Another update from Openreach..

Apparently the current date for completion of the cabinet upgrade is 1st week of April, so hopefully not too long to go!

I now have ADSL2 temporarily.....a whole 0.5Mb!

In the meantime I've been checking the BTW Checker multiple times per day and still no FTTC ports have become available.....

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

Cabinet P26 FTTC Available from 12th June 2012, being expanded by July 2018

That's only a date from codelook. Others have access to more detailed info. July sounds about right though.

Interested if you know when the information on expansion is added to codelook

I am looking at a cab for a house in buying and it's on waiting list. No info on expansion timeframes. Exchange NSKNC cab 28

Magenta Telecom SQL Database, Version 1.3
Creation Date: 9th March 2018
Source: Ofcom CodeList numbering database dated 7th March 2018
Source: BT Electronic Price List dated 9th March 2018
Source: BT Wholesale broadband datasets dated 30th November 2017

I think it's every 3 months they update the relevant BT Wholesale info.

There's a few Openreach vans with flashy orange lights doing some work about 100m from my fibre cabinet......there's nothing up that road cabinet wise (it's a rural area) so I wonder if this relates to my cabinet upgrade!

I may go and be nosey and ask them...

Just had a look at where they were working (they've gone now) and this is where they were:

https://imgur.com/a/KQ4Uq

This is seemingly just at the side of a country road (on the way to the exchange) about 100m from the cabinet. There's nothing else around here cabinet wise, my cabinet is the only cabinet to cover a village of ~300 houses.

Couple this be the start of their cabinet upgrade?

It might be some prep way to check or clear ducting ready for getting fibre to a fibre twin

OR it could just be the usual maintenance processes on the existing network

Couple this be the start of their cabinet upgrade?

Possibly.

Nice joint box

Spoke to Openreach again today and this person is now saying due to be expanded by October.

Great. Now I have 0.5Mb ADSL which is pretty much unusable for potentially 6 months.

Edited by deleted (Mon 26-Mar-18 17:48:19)

Today when I woke up.....fibre showing available!

Immediately placed an order and then called PlusNet's provisioning team who say the order was sent and Openreach order reference generated at 08:40 this morning.

Hopefully I was quick enough to get in there before anybody else....when I went to bed at 1am it was unavailable

Fingers crossed!

Edited by deleted (Thu 29-Mar-18 09:11:45)

....I guess the first person who places the order into Openreach's system.....wins?

Or is it more of a lottery?

It will be the first to get to ORs systems. So, OR update availability, the ISPs update their systems, some maybe at a greater frequency than others or they may work live. You order from your ISP, and there should be a check on availability at that time and if available, your ISP places the order. Or at least that is how it should work. The is no favouritism shown by OR to any ISP including the BT family, and they take orders based on time of receipt.

Was it a new cabinet or an unseen upgrade with an additional line card?

Neither, I think it's a port becoming available from a cease. Cabinet is due an upgrade (new cab required) though.

Became available at 0150 in the morning, I noticed as soon as I woke up at 0830 and ordered, then rang the provisioning team straight away to make sure they have sent it to OR. They said it has and they have the reference, however it is too soon to see if they have accepted it, that part will take a few hours apparently.

Edited by deleted (Thu 29-Mar-18 10:26:28)

As it has come from a port being freed up - I am not sure.

I don't know how they deal with the wait list ... or if there may be someone who has had a port failure who could be waiting.

Stop [censored] on my bonfire!

Checker still shows 'Available' though, my understanding is that it updates pretty much real time, so if there was a waiters list order waiting from a port failure, etc, I'd imagine that order would have been processed and updated by now. At least that's my understanding, could be wrong.

Edited by deleted (Thu 29-Mar-18 10:37:58)

In reply to a post by killsta:

Stop [censored] on my bonfire!

Has it gone out or burning brightly?

There's a warm glow.......I'm feeling optimistic. Also the checker still shows 'Available'. Not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing.

PlusNet provisioning team still have no order update from Openreach, apparently it can take up to 24 hours before they get something back..

Edited by deleted (Thu 29-Mar-18 14:49:29)

The checker has now changed back to Waiting List.....so time will tell if my order was accepted...

Although there is slightly less chance of it being accepted as it appears PlusNet messed up.

I ordered at 0830am, however the provisioning team only realised at 5pm (!) that the order had not built properly on Openreach's systems and so placed a manual order. Shortly after it went back to Waiting List. So there is a strong possibility somebody else ordered during the day.

Thanks PlusNet.

Edited by deleted (Thu 29-Mar-18 18:42:09)

Or it was simply a released port, not a full card, and you took it.

That could be the case, as I've just had an update from the provisioning team at Plusnet who say the order has now been 'committed' by Openreach which apparently means approved and service will be provided on 13th April.

13th April is a Friday, however........

Standard "migration" 10 working days. Odd! Or more likely just muddled thinking somewhere.

If you count today, 13th is exactly 10 working days. Or is that not what you mean?

Edited by deleted (Thu 29-Mar-18 21:04:34)

The Ofcom regulation for migrations require a minimum of ten working days, which they specify as Mondays to Fridays inclusive.

Today is not a Bank Holiday, but Easter Monday is. Assuming Ofcom think a Bank Holiday is not a working day that takes us to Friday 13 April .

The point is that (as I understand it) this is not a migration. Simply a product upgrade within Plusnet. As far as I know there are no Ofcom regulations about that. But maybe the ISP, or more likely Openreach, think the migration regulation applies.

Edited by RobertoS (Fri 30-Mar-18 14:47:30)

Today IS a Bank Holiday Bob ?

What is counted as a "migration"?

Is ADSL > FTTC not a migration?

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Today IS a Bank Holiday Bob ?

Nope. Yes? Nope . (It is in Scotland).

Second edit! It gets messy. Reliable sources contradict each other. I'm now looking for the legislation.

I know it is treated as one, but it may simply be a "public holiday".

Third edit! It isn't!

SCHEDULE 1E+W+S+N.I.
Bank Holidays

1 The following are to be bank holidays in England and Wales:�E+W+S+N.I.

Easter Monday.
The last Monday in May.
The last Monday in August.
26th December, if it be not a Sunday.
27th December in a year in which 25th or 26th December is a Sunday.


2 The following are to be bank holidays in Scotland:�E+W+S+N.I.

New Year�s Day, if it be not a Sunday or, if it be a Sunday, 3rd January.
2nd January, if it be not a Sunday or, if it be a Sunday, 3rd January.
Good Friday.
The first Monday in May.
The first Monday in August.
30th November, if it is not a Saturday or Sunday or, if it is a Saturday or Sunday, the first Monday following that day.
Christmas Day, if it be not a Sunday or, if it be a Sunday, 26th December.

3 The following are to be bank holidays in Northern Ireland:�E+W+S+N.I.

17th March, if it be not a Sunday or, if it be a Sunday, 18th March.
Easter Monday.
The last Monday in May.
The last Monday in August.
26th December, if it be not a Sunday.
27th December in a year in which 25th or 26th December is a Sunday.

Banking and Financial Dealings Act 1971

Edited by RobertoS (Fri 30-Mar-18 16:12:41)

In reply to a post by killsta:

What is counted as a "migration"?

Is ADSL > FTTC not a migration?

Not if with the same ISP, though the ISP itself may migrate the backhaul. (The latter is not a migration within the Ofcom regulations). It is just a product upgrade. Like ADSL to ADSL2+ is/was.

Interesting, thanks.

Although I assume the FTTC upgrade job needs to be assigned to an OR engineer, so perhaps they're just fully booked hence why it's the 13th as opposed to a sooner date? Especially with all these bank (not bank?) holidays

By the way, Good Friday has always been a Bank Holiday, as long as I can remember (a long time!). See the government's own web site:
UK Bank Holidays
Look down the page for past Bank Holidays!

Edited by rjh321 (Sat 31-Mar-18 08:59:40)

You can call it whatever you like, however in law it is not a Bank Holiday in England they are precisely defined. It is a common law public holiday (for want of a better phrase) when business was not transacted. Similarly, from the religious side, Christmas day is not a Bank Holiday either.

The website you link to in incorrect. England has just five Bank holidays every year.

In reply to a post by rjh321:

By the way, Good Friday has always been a Bank Holiday, as long as I can remember (a long time!). See the government's own web site:
UK Bank Holidays
Look down the page for past Bank Holidays!

Maybe you should read the full thread.

As MHC says, it is a Public Holiday. Not a Bank Holiday.

See the list and link to the law it is copied from in this post.

As shown in the list, if you live in Scotland then it is a Bank Holiday. Not in England, Wales and NI.

Were the Banks open yesterday ?

(yep, just stirring )

Marks and Spencer�s Food Store here was, until 8pm. I arrived at 6.10pm expecting it to be closed. There were three customers in, including myself, where normally it is 30+ at that time. The staff were really cheesed off!

They will be closed on Sunday.

M&S is one thing Bob,

but I asked about the banks, it�s not called an M&S Holiday is it ?

All I can say is:

Queens Birthday
Maundy Thursday (1/2)
Christmas +1

As I always do, I DID read the full thread. I have often been accused of being a pedant myself but I think you're being too pedantic. I appreciate that legally it's not called a Bank Holiday, however, the government calls it a "bank holiday" and yesterday most banks were closed.

He is not being too pedantic - he is being correct.

If we agreed a contract and it said you would provide a full every Monday to Friday with the exception of (English) Bank holidays, I would expect that service to be delivered every day except for the five bank holiday days including Christmas Day, May Day, Good Friday and New Years Day. If you failed to deliver and it went to court, you would lose.

The common misunderstanding, including that by the person who composed the government website you linked to, is because the weekends associated with a Bank Holiday are called Bank Holiday weekends. Which is fair enough, as that is a true naming.

I have just reported the problem to the gov.uk website admin.

Remember, the help pages have answers to the most common questions about the GOV.UK website. You can use the form below to ask a question, report a problem or suggest an improvement we can make to GOV.UK.

We shall shall see what response I get.

I would expect that service to be delivered every day except for the five bank holiday days including Christmas Day, May Day, Good Friday and New Years Day.

I think you've contradicted yourself!

I'm confused.

To explain - I thought he was saying that Good Friday isn't a bank holiday and now he's saying it is. Perhaps I'm confused myself!

In reply to a post by rjh321:

I would expect that service to be delivered every day except for the five bank holiday days including Christmas Day, May Day, Good Friday and New Years Day.

I think you've contradicted yourself!

I thought that at first, but if you insert a comma, or better still a semi-colon after "days" it says what he meant .

(One of the many cases where punctuation matters and can radically change the meaning).

"I would expect that service to be delivered every day including Christmas Day, May Day, Good Friday and New Years Day, except for the five bank holidays" is even better, but isn't the way we speak.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

(One of the many cases where punctuation matters and can radically change the meaning).

+1 - Never ignore the power of punctuation.

There's a Maypole dancer.
Theresa May, pole dancer.

In reply to a post by Towerman:

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

(One of the many cases where punctuation matters and can radically change the meaning).

+1 - Never ignore the power of punctuation.

There's a Maypole dancer.
Theresa May, pole dancer.

Grammar generally, not just punctuation. After all, imagine the confusion if you got your capital letters wrong when helping your Uncle Jack off a horse.

Checked with Plusnet again (I'm sure they're sick of me by now...) and my FTTC order is still showing as 'committed' for 13/04/18.

Here's hoping it all goes smoothly and there is actually a port for me come Friday the 13th.

Edited by deleted (Wed 04-Apr-18 13:04:32)

The port is supposedly reserved by Openreach when accepting the order.

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

Keep checking the availability checker though as those brief "available" times you see are likely individual ports becoming available.

That was the 1st reply to this topic.
You did it, you ordered, the ports yours already. Nothing to worry about.

I ordered my initial FTTC service under the same circumstances.
My new build street was only showing as available to get fibre after the cabinet was full.
The BTWholesale checker changed back to waiting list within an hour or me ordering (about 3am).
I then helped neighbours order a service over the next few months. Each time the checker showed available some time after midnight, and changed back to waiting list within an hour of the neighbour placing their orders.
They all successfully had their FTTC activated on the expected dates.

I think you have nothing to worry about.

Excellent.

I will keep this thread updated

FTTC was activated today, syncing at 80Mb. Hurrah!

Slight issue with profiles I think, my PN line profile says its 78Mb however I'm getting exactly 40/20 rates so I think something must be capped at the DSLAM end.

It's only been up for an hour or so, if it doesn't sort itself out I'll get on to PN.

No Openreach 40/20 product ever existed, but it did as a PlusNet one, so points to it being something in the PlusNet systems

Looks to be fixed now, getting full 80Mb

Connecting to ipv4.download.thinkbroadband.com (ipv4.download.thinkbroadband.com)|80.249.99.148|:80... connected.
HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 200 OK
Length: 104857600 (100M) [application/zip]
Saving to: �100MB.zip�

100MB.zip 100%[===================>] 100.00M 8.82MB/s in 12s

2018-04-13 14:17:15 (8.67 MB/s) - �100MB.zip� saved [104857600/104857600]