BTnet - getting the runaround?

I've mentioned before that my client is currently looking at options for replacing their VDSL2 20Mbps/1Mbps link with something faster.

When BT sales person came to visit, they have only offered BTnet which is their leased line service. Putting aside installation cost for now, the price was originally came in around £800/month for a 30Mbps but soon dropped for ~£550/month.

An installation survey will hopefully be carried out soon.

However, my initial concern over this is the 30Mbps speed, albeit both ways. Sure, it's uncontended and good service levels but those aren't exactly top of my customers requirement. Speed is - and that's just not enough of an uplift, contended or not.

When I look into BTnet pricing, I hit this page:

https://business.bt.com/products/broadband/bt-leased...

Two things hit me - firstly, the BTnet Express service looks fine if it was 30Mbps but is a fraction of the price. Secondly, the 100Mbps price is still £100 less than they have been quoted and that is for 100Mbps.

I asked my client to question this with BT sales and they got this back:

----cut here----
The BT-Net Express is a different product and unfortunately after doing an online survey this is not available for your location, The price you have had is because you are over 5km for the BT POP Exchange, if you were local access (Within a mile of the exchange) the price would be cheaper, unfortunately until the survey has been passed we do not know all the information so I cannot look into the pricing as it may come back even further, meaning a higher cost.
If we can get the survey done, which I believe has been confirmed we can look at this time at the pricing.
----cut here----

What has distance from the exchange got to do monthly pricing? Installation is being priced/paid for separately? BT have said they'd absorb £2,800 of install costs but what it sounds like here is that they are not absorbing it but spreading it through the overall cost. So fibbing...

Also, does a leased line have to go all the way back to the Exchange and not the nearest FTTC? I can see this being the case (for contention reasons?) but thought I'd ask.

FTTPoD is available to the premises here. Does that also have to go direct to the Exchange or can it go to a FTTC cabinet or fibre aggregate I've seen mentioned. The nearest FTTC cabinet is 1.4km away.

Sorry for the still-newbie questions but I don't like it when something doesn't stack up. One is tempted to tell BT to go away and we'll approach one of the three FTTPoD providers.

Edited by deleted (Thu 01-Mar-18 12:34:28)

Leased line is back to the exchange, FTTPoD back to the aggregation node.

Thanks for the rapid answer - at least that bit of the BT sales answer was correct. And yes, they are a long way from the Mobberley Exchange.

I suspect BT are pushing BTnet because they can't offer FTTPoD.

Hard work this isn't it. So we need to get OpenReach to do a separate survey (though one of the FTTPoD suppliers) to get costs to the aggregation node which I'm going to guess is a lot closer.

It'll come down to the extra cost between the longer Exchange line with £2,800 discount from BT versus shorter non-discounted FTTPoD line.

Anyone care to give some ballpark monthly costs from FTTPoD suppliers - a 100Mbps/30Mbps would be fine?

Is the BTnet circuit they�re proposing fibre based or EFM (copper)?

If fibre, that will be a dedicated run all the way back to the exchange (might not even be the local exchange). Likely to come with excess construction charges well into five figures if this is for the site you�ve previously mentioned.

If EFM, that uses up to eight copper pairs depending on distance, at your distance likely to need all eight and probably won�t manage 30Mps either. You might well find there aren�t eight available pairs to use so you�re back to high ECC charges. Also, from personal experience, avoid EFM if at all possible, the reliability can be very poor - the local OR engineers will hate you as they�ll be constantly trying to fix it!

As previously discussed, it looked like the area was going to get native FTTP anyway - have you made enquiries to confirm that and get a timescale?

Some BT lease line products have a per meter charge for both install and rental so presumably this is one of those.

BT can't quote for FTTPoD so if you ask them in to quote they can only quote the things they sell - like most business they aren't going to say "by the way the guy over there can provide you an alternative to ours".

FTTPoD has just been through a price change and no-one yet as far as we have seen on here has up to date quotes. Until the suppliers get their new pricing sorted then it is guesswork but at present it is looking like at could be very high up front install costs with more reasonably monthly rental.

>Is the BTnet circuit they�re proposing fibre based or EFM (copper)?

Honestly don't know because BT sales are useless at letting you know exactly what they are proposing. I'm going to assume fibre as they are talking about distance from the Exchange.

>As previously discussed, it looked like the area was going to get native FTTP anyway - have you made enquiries to confirm that and get a timescale?

See above It's like pulling teeth. Considering the location, I'd be very surprised about native FTTP. How did you gleam that bit of information and who does one speak to - OpenReach or ISP?

>like most business they aren't going to say "by the way the guy over there can provide you an alternative to ours".

I know - I've dealt with enough people in the comms business over the years

>Until the suppliers get their new pricing sorted then it is guesswork but at present it is looking like at could be very high up front install costs with more reasonably monthly rental.

I was aware of this price change and I've suggested my client doesn't make any decisions until this new pricing is available. Which will hopefully be soon. They are aware of the potentially high install costs. But they are a business so can do the TCO over say three years. If we can get the figures in the first place.

Get quotes from others who can provide leased line services.

Openreach Checker

Look at the results for number 8, the BT checkers for this premises don�t think any FTTC service is currently possible whereas it does for the other nearby premesis, hence it showing native FTTP being planned. As all the premesis show sub 24Mbps FTTC then they should all get native FTTP offered at the same time no 8 gets it. You need to contact Connecting Cheshire for them to hopefully confirm this is the case and what the timescale is. Could also be worth contacting the local MP to bang heads together if needed!

We get lots of different readings When OpenReach came out to technically just install a 2nd copper line for VDSL2, my client had to tell them where the connections were.

The phone number of the recent VDSL2 install is 01565872271

What postcode/number were you using?

But yes, they all get <24Mbps. Will investigate further.

SK10 5RX

All except no 8 announce �good news, FTTC service...� bla bla bla. As, for some reason, they don�t think no 8 is cable of a workable FTTC service on the current infrastructure it reveals the statement about FTTP being planned - you really need to get this confirmed as no doubt you and your client will be kicking yourselves if you go down the route of some more expensive, possibly inferior, solution just to find FTTP pops up shortly afterwards.

There might already be evidence of FTTP infrastructure being installed on the nearby poles - post some photos of the local pole tops, etc.

interesting comments al66 about looking at the poles ..

Confused -This is a different client to the one you�ve asked about previously?

Sorry yes - I've got three rural clients. This is Owen House wedding barn.

>SK10 5RX

Ahh yes, that's the Bakestonedale/Brickworks site where fibre has recently been run up the valley past the site.

This one is a single business near Manchester airport that's on VDSL2+ 20Mbps/1MBps at the moment and they need higher upstream for VOIP.

May do but focussing more on FTTPoD for now. The install costs all the way back to the exchange may make a leased line a non-contender. Now it all depends upon how near the aggregate node is and the install cost to there.

Getting published prices for FTTPoD online is tricky but I did find some examples.

Over three years per month: BTnet @ 30Mbps is £550 + unknown install fee from £0 to £??, FuildOne @ 300Mbps/30Mbps is £300, Cerebus @ 300Mbps/30Mbps is £156-£270 depending on install costs

So a potential saving of £14k - which buys a lot of early termination charges.

These costs are based on the old pricing so install cost expected to rise, but lower activation fee and monthly costs?

Yes, the BTnet is a leased line but I honestly think that's overkill for my client. If the Wi-Fi goes down at a wedding, the world doesn't end. And we could always hook up a mobile via USB to the Draytek.

Found it! - also found the cabinet (3), at the junction of Hobcroft, Church & Lady lanes - 1400m

No clues to future native FTTP but still worth asking Connecting Cheshire, no doubt would be further down the queue than other more pressing areas. Bonding extra FTTC lines would probably be the cheapest option? Followed by FTTPoD depending on where the aggregation node is.

Hope they�re not hosting their own website on the FTTC - very slow (and hard to read!).

>Found it! - also found the cabinet (3), at the junction of Hobcroft, Church & Lady lanes - 1400m

Well done! I knew which cabinet they were on but had failed to find it. But doh! I drive past it on the way to the wedding barn and yes, there it is. I know the 90deg bend but just shows how you block out cabinets 1.4km as the bird flies/1.6km on road is on the nose for the speeds they get.

https://goo.gl/maps/dARySs7HvKp

>Bonding extra FTTC lines would probably be the cheapest option?

That's how all this started We were going to put in another VDSL2 line, connect that via the BT hub into the Draytek as a 2nd bonded line. That would give 2Mbps upstream and could dedicate 1Mbps for VOIP through QoS. But OpenReach came up with a spurious connection charge of £3,145 - for VDSL2???

https://www.dropbox.com/s/327t04rpfjh4htp/bt-connect...

Never got the bottom of what this charge actually was! Annoying thing is that there are nine phone line already into various buildings. Two are VDSL2, other seven are ADSL. Just not easy to being them all together. If you could get hold of the Openreach engineer onsite, I'm sure we could re-use some of those for possibly quad-bonded. Simples if you can find the right person.

>Followed by FTTPoD depending on where the aggregation node is.

Indeed... will the 3rd party ISPs (e.g. Cerebus) be able to find that out so they can give some very ballpark install costs? Or is a survey always needed?

>Hope they�re not hosting their own website on the FTTC - very slow (and hard to read!).

Nothing to do with me And no, it's hosted elsewhere. Suggested that the pink contact us wasn't the best colour. And Vanessa doesn't work there anymore!

If all the copper pairs are in use, then the telephone USO does not count as you have a line already, and thus they can charge the full actual cost of getting a new line to the premises.

3rd party providers may use different wholesalers and payment terms so you can get very different prices.

All the providers will be subject to survey as there are numerous gotcha's that can make a big difference to the pricing.

Best case you are 1.4km from the aggregation node, likely to be more, so your £14,000 saving is likely to vanish in the on demand build cost.

If all the incoming lines come through the same internal DP I�d just move them myself as necessary to get them to where needed, local independent ex Openreach type guy could do it for you if you can find one.

Bonding rather than load balancing needs all bonded lines to be provided by the same ISP and for them to support it at their end. Think Andrews & Arnold might offer it. Never found the Draytek load balancing particularly useful. Proper bonding will make all bonded lines behave as a single fat pipe.

Nothing to stop you asking for a desktop survey for FTTPoD, no charge for that and should give an idea of the magnitude of ECC charges.

BT are still going to charge for the build cost will just "absorb" up to £2,800 in the leased line deal

Silly question perhaps, but have you considered retaining the VDSL and supplementing it with a satellite solution?

The leased line pricing will have to cover 2 segments, the mainline from the POP exchange to the local exchange and then the local section to the end user. A local access circuit would not have the mainline section.
As stated keep away from the express option as EFM is a poor substitute and the kit was not well supported .

Thanks for this. Understand the EFM option now and yes, not ideal. Although we might look at bonded internet as well - esp. considering there are nine telephone lines already going into the site. All we're trying to do at the end of the day is get a little more upstream speed for VOIP. Personally, I think it's overkill - would be easier if they switched their mobiles to a nearby transmitter (O2 is 1.5km away).

I'm currently looking at an external 4G IAD with O2 SIM as an option. Would certainly be a much cheaper option esp. as that could plug into the existing Draytek Vigor as a 2nd load-balanced line.

As it's the upstream speed that we're specifically looking at, I don't think satellite would work in this situation? Isn't that down only with up via normal methods?

Satellite broadband is 2 way but the latency is less than ideal for VOIP

You can get 5Mbps+ upload with satellite but I'd recommend keeping the VDSL for VOIP to reduce latency problems. Worth a chat with a specialist though as they'll have a better idea about congestion problems and the best data package for your circumstances (You won't get unlimited!)

What are your minimum requirements?

This is like trying to solve a crime where bits of the puzzle are coming together. Could be that all this angst over leased lines, FTTPoD etc. could be solved by a very local company that I only came across by accident when somebody posted on the local Facebook group about improving rural internet.

http://www.vispa.net/business/wireless/

They started their trials just up the road in Mottram St. Andrew. How about that for coincidence. And my client is shown as been in the current service area.

Okay, so 40Mbps/40Mbps isn't going to set any speed records but that's x2 faster download than the existing VDSL2 but nearly x40 faster for upstream so VOIP becomes a non-issue. And it's uncontended like the leased line.

Install is a steal (compared to BTnet and FTTPoD) at £0 to £599. And the icing on the cake of £199.95 per month for unlimited usage.

I suspect this will be the solution unless one of the FTTPoD providers comes in with a stunning offer and by some outside chance, fibre installation costs aren't astronomical.

So all fingers crossed that they haven't fibbed about area covered

Wouldn�t a mobile based solution be a bit �laggy� for voip use ?

After all, it's not like the mobile network was primarily designed for telephony...

I was asking a genuine question, because I don�t know.

If wireless solutions are as good as �fixed� services why don�t more seem to use them ?

I'm not exactly sure so far how their network works. Obviously it's wireless and they do have a series of masts around the area but beyond that it's a bit sketchy what protocol is used over the air to the premises. UBNT kit was mentioned in an article but they offer a wide range of devices. Will know more this morning.

Possibly because they are relatively slow compared to even VDSL2 and FTTP in that the maximum speed offered is 40Mbps. But around these parts where FTTP installations are limited, they offer a rural site a good option.

AIUI it�s not so much the speed, it�s the latency that made it unsuitable. But happy to be told otherwise.

Well that's the biggest let down since Carrie said she wouldn't go to the prom with me. Yes sir, whilst you are clearly shown as in our service area, we don't have an access point pointing in that direction and we're just gathering interest. So we're not really in your service area? Silence...

They are going to send an engineer out to do a site survey because they are relatively close to their main transmitter.

This does give an idea of what technology they are using - something like the UBNT airFiber range with a narrow transmission beam off a mast. However, I thought these devices had a very narrow beam, i.e. pointing at each other. Or does the area spread out maybe over a 1km at distance?

Talk about a company going to "yeah" to "naa" in such a short period. I've just given them four postcodes of clients who want better internet in their so-called "Service available" area and not one of them can get Vispa.net

Was tempted to ask "So where *do* you cover?"

Maybe you�ve dodged a bullet there ?

VOIP works perfect over Wireless broadband. The additional latency is very low, and nothing at all like satellite.

OK, thank you for the info John ....

sounds from the OP like they cannot offer service yet anyway.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Wouldn�t a mobile based solution be a bit �laggy� for voip use ?

Plenty of people use facebook video, apple facetime, skype etc on mobile data networks with no big issue.

Plenty of people use facebook video, apple facetime, skype etc on mobile data networks with no big issue.

Yep John83 has corrected me, it's a subject I (clearly) know little about.

My parents have WiMax and I found the latency to be excellent; better than my VDSL2 and pretty close to FTTP. Radio waves travel very close to the speed of light so I guess that any latency would be down to signalling overheads and error correction.

No sadly not but they are in the process of commissioning a new mast at Sutton which should cover this site - six weeks they hope. Considering the lead time on getting the alternative BTnet or FTTPoD service in, I'm hoping this particular avenue delivers. My client is still chasing BT for the Openreach site survey upon which everything hinges.

Personally I'd like to go with Vispa if we can. Always prefer smaller local companies if possible although one does take a bit of a risk on overall redundancy. But probably can't be worse than BT...

An installation survey will hopefully be carried out soon.

Went on site to meet the Openreach engineer today. Always better when you can get the real low down. My client might be very lucky - turns out there is a 100Mbps circuit down the lane and there is a suitable conduit to right outside their premises. So installation will be relatively easy esp. as my client can carry out some of additional digging themselves. Plus road closure not needed - just two way lights.

We're now getting alternative quotes from other ISPs as BTnet seems very overpriced compared to other indicative pricing.

So fingers crossed - esp. as I've just read the other thread about FFTPoD new pricing!!

Bizarelly, on my way to site today I spotted another fibre cabinet that's about 500m from their premises but obviously not used by them ;-(