"Possible internal wiring/ equipment fault"

Hi,

I've been having issues with general stability, frequent re-syncs and a drop in upstream rate over the past month, essentially, since all that rain we had begun. The previous fault I had was a 'contact fault' which the OR engineer appeared to have fixed but the current issue symptons are very similar. E.g. drop in upstream sync, missing upstream tones and frequent re-syncs, what is different is the upstream SNRM has a 0.5dB spike every 4 or 5 samples using DSLstats.
I contacted my ISP, IDNET, on Friday and as per, they didn't respond. I chased them on Saturday and have only just got a response this morning and they're stating that diagnostics report a possible internal wiring/ equipment fault. I don't have any internal wiring, not even a land line phone plugged in. The drop wire comes down the front of the house and straight into an NTE5 with NTE5C SSFP. The gateway (Billion 8800AXL) is then plugged into this via a bespoke 1m length of CW1308.
I have another gateway I can try, which I will do tonight, straight into the diagnostic socket of the master socket.
I'm intrigued to understand how the diagnostics can determine it's an internal wiring fault?!

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Paul

Any thoughts ? .....

the test system they/Openreach use can be 'flakey' at times, it's trying to say 'something' is wrong, but it's prognosis isn't always to be treated as Gospel/accurate.

It should however result in them being able to organise a faulting visit .... go for it. Any noise on the line ?

I've performed quiet line test (through the SSFP, with a cheap analogue phone) and there did seem to be intermittent, quiet 'pops' for want of a better word...

Having thought about it, since receiving IDNET's diagnosis, I'm favouring the 'bespoke' modem cable as a candidate, as it's one I made myself, the CW1308 cable isn't very flexible and I has been wiggled around some in its life. So I plan on making a fresh one and swapping them over but I also have a pre-made cable I can try too.

I'd hope that I can rule out 'my' side of the line fairly quickly with a modem cable change, running directly to the test socket and/ or swapping the Billion over for a ZyXel gateway I have lying around.

If I do that and the 'fault' remains, bearing in mind the last saga I had with IDNET when they diagnosed a contact fault (I'll find and link the thread), where do I go from there?

Paul

I'd hope that I can rule out 'my' side of the line fairly quickly with a modem cable change, running directly to the test socket and/ or swapping the Billion over for a ZyXel gateway I have lying around.

Don't forget to take notes of sync rates, theoretical max rates, SNR and error counts before and after ...

also don't forget that excessive 'fannying about' can rouse the ogre beneath the bridge that is DLM.


(and if you rule out your kit, report it via your ISP)

Edited by Zarjaz (Mon 23-Apr-18 13:07:23)

Indeed, I'm acutely aware of the spectre that is DLM, so will do my best to avoid it. I think running the Billion to the test socket with a pre-made modem cable will be the first test. Then if that doesn't give an improvement, the same socket/ cable config but with the ZyXel. And so on...

I can take screen dumps of DSLstats you track progress.

ETA: a link to my BQM
It's re-synced twice today already. Before this issue, it would stay up for weeks!

Paul

Edited by deleted (Mon 23-Apr-18 13:26:06)

I can take screen dumps of DSLstats you track progress.

Nah, pen and paper ......... cutting edge stuff it is

As for BQM's, I can't even spell it, let alone interpret it.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

pen and paper...

I had to Google that...

Paul

In reply to a post by youngsyp:

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

pen and paper...

I had to Google that...

Paul

Some people give them to their kids when the iPad is charging to keep them temporarily entertained. Although most kids don't require the paper as walls, carpet, clothes, etc all work just as well.

I literally get a smallpad from the stores and hand it to guys I buddy up for work ....

they all say �I�ll remember� and 40 minutes later when I ask �So what stats were you getting when we tested at ....� they never can recall.

(Still using Dogpile as a search engine here )






Edit : just checked, it still exists ...... http://www.dogpile.com/

So I've swapped to the ZyXel, changed the modem cable and have it all plugged into the test socket and surprise, surprise, the diagnostics are still showing a fault 'inside the premises'.

Whilst messing around, I took the master socket off the wall just to check the connections were secure, and they look new and are tight. Being an NTE5C, they're the toolless IDC type terminals, so pretty final when the connection is made.

As a side note, when I changed the modem cable and plugged directly into the master socket, the downstream attainable increased from around 58Mb/s to just over 60Mb/s, this came from an increase in SNRM to around 7dB (from 6.5dB). This remained when I switched to the ZyXel, which would lead me to believe that either the old modem cable or the SSFP were causing slight problems.
Also, the 0.5dB spikes in the upstream SNRM are further apart and wider now.
And despite the upstream sync being at around 9Mb/s when it's usually at around 9.5Mb/s, speed tests shown a faster upstream rate, by a few hundred kb/s. The downstream rate also seems slightly improved on speed tests.

Oh and another point of note is that the ZyXel is excellent for bufferbloat, virtually eliminating it according to the DSLreports speedtest. Errors generally look better with the ZyXel too.

It looks like upstream transmit power is back up to where is used to be with the ZyXel too.

Coincidentally, or not, my next door neighbour is also having issues with his broadband currently, and has crackling on his line...

Looks like an engineer visit might be required.

Paul

Edited by deleted (Tue 24-Apr-18 09:18:21)

suspect line fault. Report to ISP inc fact that neighbour also having trouble

I've been back on to IDNET and they've been as helpful as ever! It always seems as though they don't believe you whenever I've raised an issue, despite their diagnostics stating there is a fault.
I asked them whether the engineer would have access to the previous engineer's notes and it's a no apparently. The previous chap was like a dog with a bone trying to find the issue and I believe it was only that and a bit of luck that he did. As there's no guarantee he'll visit this time, I'm extremely dubious about giving IDNET the go ahead to raise a visit, especially as they're still stating the issue their testing is picking up is a "non-Openreach related one". I get the feeling OR will visit, say they can't find the issue and send me the bill. So I'll be worse off than I am now.
This really boils my bacon as I'm paying good money for this service and I'm made to feel like I should be thankful for the service I'm actually receiving.
There's a couple of things I can still do, which I really shouldn't, but it would give me a bit more confidence for an engineer visit.

Paul

I get the feeling OR will visit, say they can't find the issue and send me the bill.

...just a correction, Openreach don't bill you, that would be your ISP, who Openreach may or may not have passed charges to.

This really boils my bacon

...make sure you soak it overnight first, this will reduce the saltiness prior to boiling

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

...just a correction, Openreach don't bill you, that would be your ISP, who Openreach may or may not have passed charges to.

I wonder if copious amounts of tea and biscuits may sway the engineers decision?!

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

...make sure you soak it overnight first, this will reduce the saltiness prior to boiling

Reduce the saltiness? Pah, that's like drinking 'no added sugar' drinks!

Paul

In reply to a post by youngsyp:

I've performed quiet line test (through the SSFP, with a cheap analogue phone) and there did seem to be intermittent, quiet 'pops' for want of a better word...

Is this still happening? It may well be worth logging a voice call and getting the noise sorted. If there's audible noise there's probably noise further up the frequency range affecting VDSL.

I had problems last year with my FTTC and noise on the line. They were sorted with visits from voice engineers.

In reply to a post by bsdnazz:

Is this still happening?

Will check tonight, but am pretty certain it will be as the only difference would be the SSFP which was in situ last time I checked, but wouldn't be now.

In reply to a post by bsdnazz:

I had problems last year with my FTTC and noise on the line. They were sorted with visits from voice engineers.

This seems to be the way IDNet work. The last time they banged on and on about the phone, testing this and that, despite me raising it as a broadband issue and stating repeatedly that the phone isn't usually connected. The engineer that visited was a 'voice' specialist, with no expertise in BB also. This time, the last question they asked was whether I was getting dial tone, despite it being reported as a BB issue again. So I suspect if I did have an engineer visit, it would be a 'voice' specialist again.

Paul

... that�s the thing though, it�s the ISP, so you need to be plying them with your tea and hideously salty sarnies.

Engineer visit is booked in for next week now, following a random re-sync and drop in upstream rate to 1.7Mb/s this morning, from 9Mb/s and 9.5Mb/s before these issues started.

I've been closely monitoring the line these last few days and bar the spikes in upstream rate, it's more stable than ever, between line drops. The upstream SNRM used to start to slowly degrade as soon as the modem synced and was stable. Since I've been monitoring the line, it's actually been holding at circa 6dB but also increasing everso slightly during the day.

I've just taken this snapshot of the SNRM before and after a line drop and it looks fine (guess when it dropped...). Which suggests whatever is triggering the line drop must be sudden and quick, does it not?

ETA: My BQM chart looks very quiet before the line drop too.

ETA: The QLN chart looks a little spiky too.

Paul

Edited by deleted (Thu 26-Apr-18 16:20:46)

I didn't read the OP properly, sorry.

Edited by deleted (Sat 28-Apr-18 00:50:34)

A slight development over the weekend...

I was faffing around with the cabling on Thursday night and thought I'd check my modem cable. Sure enough, it was incorrectly wired and had pin 3 going to pin 3 and pin 4 going to pin 4. What clown could have done that?!

So I snipped off the plug and wired it up correctly with a new RJ11 plug. Plugged it all back in and switched the gateway back on. Now initially, there wasn't much of a change, if any. So I just left it to. Friday morning however, I checked the router stats and it had re-synced at about 1h30m after I had finished faffing and the upstream sync was now at 9550 kb/s, or about where it was before the issues started. It's been up like that since, without any drops and with the upstream SNRM fluctuating between 5dB and 5.5dB. I'm going to leave it alone now but if it's still stable by tomorrow evening, I'm going to cancel the engineer visit.

I checked the other cable I replaced with this incorrectly wired one and it was the same, so I've been using bum modem cables for a couple of years, since I've been in this house. What an idiot!

Interestingly, I was chatting to my neighbour yesterday who initially stated his BB was still up and down, but then stated certain things were working better than ever... And he mentioned that he saw an OR engineer, shoulders deep in our cabinet last week... He didn't state when specifically, only that it was in the pouring rain, so I think that would have been Thursday or Friday. Coincidence?

Paul

In reply to a post by youngsyp:

. . . thought I'd check my modem cable. Sure enough, it was incorrectly wired and had pin 3 going to pin 3 and pin 4 going to pin 4.

<snip>

I checked the other cable I replaced with this incorrectly wired one and it was the same, so I've been using bum modem cables . . .

There is nothing wrong with that configuration. Two 6P6C modular plugs may be connected together either 3 - 3 & 4 - 4 or 3 - 4 & 4 - 3. (It's not as if you have "reversed the polarity of the neutron flow". [Quoting Dr Who, for the time when he occupied Jon Pertwee's body.])

So whatever result you have observed when "faffing around with the cabling" it is pure co-incidence.

In reply to a post by burakkucat:

There is nothing wrong with that configuration. Two 6P6C modular plugs may be connected together either 3 - 3 & 4 - 4 or 3 - 4 & 4 - 3. (It's not as if you have "reversed the polarity of the neutron flow". [Quoting Dr Who, for the time when he occupied Jon Pertwee's body.])

So whatever result you have observed when "faffing around with the cabling" it is pure co-incidence.

Interesting. I must admit that I had wondered just what difference it would make, given it's been 'working' for years in the 'incorrect' other configuration.

All the pre-made cables I checked were in the pin 3 to pin 4 etc configuration but I'm usually very particular when I make cables, so there must have been a reason why I made the two 'incorrect' cables, the way I did.

I guess that OR engineer must have fixed something when he was fiddling around in our cabinet.

Paul

Wrote too soon. The gateway rebooted last night and I've lost 700kb/s again on the upstream, plus the U2 tones. Upstream output power is also down.

Sigh.

Paul

I'm now wondering whether I'm the victim of REIN.

I've been monitoring the line with DSLstats and noticed a sharp change in the upstream SNRM behaviour from around 5.30pm which resulted in a rapid 1-2dB fluctuation until around 6.10am this morning. I'm struggling to think what would switch on at 5.30pm at this time of year though. Maybe it's something at a neighbours?!

SNRM chart here.

Paul

The 1dB wander on its own could be considered slightly worse than normal and should not cause errors, the spike at 5:30 though suggests a possible sync event may take place.

If the pattern reproduces and you test first with everything but the router circuit switched off at the breaker in your house then it may be worth listing with a AM radio for noise bursts around 5:30 and a bit of walking to try and ID rough source.

If its not happening on sunny warm days then probably someone's heating.

Maybe your neighbours have their heating still set to come on ... or maybe they (or you) could have hot water set to come on at 5:30 at that will fire up the boiler, pumps, valves &c. So people have their heating set to come on even in warm weather and use TRVs to manage the temperature in each room and the only radiator that warms is the bathroom meaning the pump will run continually.

Monitor it for a few days - leave DSLStats running and see it it happens daily and if/when it goes off.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

The 1dB wander on its own could be considered slightly worse than normal and should not cause errors, the spike at 5:30 though suggests a possible sync event may take place.

If the pattern reproduces and you test first with everything but the router circuit switched off at the breaker in your house then it may be worth listing with a AM radio for noise bursts around 5:30 and a bit of walking to try and ID rough source.

If its not happening on sunny warm days then probably someone's heating.

A 1dB wander is about double the norm on my line so for it to wander by 2dB is fairly significant although, actual errors don't seem to be high at 10 ES an hour, on average, on the upstream.

I've been meaning to by a radio for a while, for this very purpose, so may see what's available on Amazon.

I'm not entirely convinced the gateway is 100% so have a new Billion 8800AXL R2 arriving today, in the hope that I can either confirm or alleviate that worry.

Following the random reboot yesterday morning, I'm outputting a syslog to my server too, just in case the gateway reboots again.

Paul

In reply to a post by MHC:

Maybe your neighbours have their heating still set to come on ... or maybe they (or you) could have hot water set to come on at 5:30 at that will fire up the boiler, pumps, valves &c. So people have their heating set to come on even in warm weather and use TRVs to manage the temperature in each room and the only radiator that warms is the bathroom meaning the pump will run continually.

Monitor it for a few days - leave DSLStats running and see it it happens daily and if/when it goes off.

Heating (and/ or water) was my first thought although our heating goes off at 10pm and the water comes on only for an hour in the morning, from 4am until 5am. That doesn't preclude a neighbour's of course and my (overhead and underground) line seems to pass a lot of houses. The 'anomoly' ended at just after 6am this morning (chart) but I will continue to monitor.

We have overhead power to our and a number of other houses in the immediate area and my phone line runs quite close to that in a number of places. So there's lots of places it could be picking up noise from but, this is a new development, as the original issue here started a month or so ago.

I may be clutching at straws by I'm quite sure my next door neighbour, who's stated his broadband isn't performing very well, gets home from work around 5pm.... 2 and 2?! He's quite amenable so I'll ask him some questions.

Paul

Just be aware that many things cause noises picked up on an am radio, that doesn�t mean that they are affecting your broadband.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Just be aware that many things cause noises picked up on an am radio, that doesn�t mean that they are affecting your broadband.

Justin Bieber?
Whilst he may not be a detriment to my broadband, he certainly is to my ears!

Paul

So why you�re obviously not a �Belieber�, my post is a valid one, I go out and hunt these things using an am radio and a 444 meter.

Any word on the voice line noise? Is this still happening or was it fixed?

I've not updated for a while as I've been making changes and didn't want to jinx any of them however, I've now come to the realisation that there is definitely an issue with the line!

Things I've done:

Replaced trusty Billion 8800AXL with brand spankers Billion 8800AXL R2 with latest 'test FW'. Result - Slight improvement in upstream sync but still have stability issues. Conclusion - modem/ router not at fault.

Swapped out NTE5C and MK4 SSFP for NTE5A and MK3 SSFP. Result - nothing initially then after a couple of re-syncs, the line maxed out for both up and down streams. Sync hadn't been this good since G.INP kicked in a week or so after I was first connected. Curious as this change hasn't improved line stability but, it has increased upstream sync to around where it was before the issues started. Conclusion - NTEC and/ or MK4 SSFP were faulty?!

Re-cabled where the overhead cable comes into a plastic box on the side of the house to the master socket using CW1308 cable and OR 'DREX' gel crimps. Result - No change other than my feel good factor that the installation looks like it could have been done by OR. This also means that everything just before and on my side of the demarcation point has been changed for new or for parts that have shown an improvement.

Observations I've made:

In a post further up, I included a DSLstats screen dump of an event where the SNRM looks bad. I managed to perform a quiet line test when I noticed another one of these events occurring and the line was very noisy. It sounded like someone was blowing across the mouth piece, or using the phone in very windy weather and there was a defined crackle. Whilst listening, it stopped completely and went silent and then started up again. I've performed a number of quiet line tests at other times, including when I had the contact fault and never heard this before. I'm continuously monitoring the line via DSLstats and the Billion via syslog (link to log below) now. The obvious conclusion here is that the issue is very sporadic and doesn't happen at regular intervals.

I've also noticed recently that when the DSL link drops, the modem takes a number of attempts to re-connect with enough stability to maintain sync. This can be seen in the syslog here.

So my latest plan is to hope that I catch another noise event and contact IDNet when it' happening for them to perform a line test.


Paul

Edited by deleted (Tue 15-May-18 15:49:22)

In reply to a post by youngsyp:

<snip>
I managed to perform a quiet line test when I noticed another one of these events occurring and the line was very noisy. It sounded like someone was blowing across the mouth piece, or using the phone in very windy weather and there was a defined crackle. Whilst listening, it stopped completely and then started up again.
<snip>

What you have described is a strong indicator of one (or more) joint(s) in the metallic pathway showing intermittent HR or semi-conductive tendencies.

In reply to a post by burakkucat:

What you have described is a strong indicator of one (or more) joint(s) in the metallic pathway showing intermittent HR or semi-conductive tendencies.

Indeed and I'd wager it's probably at the same point that was causing the previous contact fault issue.

I just need to find a way to make it less intermittent!

Paul

In reply to a post by youngsyp:

Replaced trusty Billion 8800AXL with brand spankers Billion 8800AXL R2 with latest 'test FW'. Result - Slight improvement in upstream sync but still have stability issues. Conclusion - modem/ router not at fault.

I was never that impressed with the R2 versions of the 8800NL and AXL because they both use a cheaper chipset than their predecessors (confirmed by Billion's tech support) which seems to cause instability in the SNRM. The link has dslstat plots from the 8800NL R2 and the original which shows what I mean.
Link.

In reply to a post by simon194:

I was never that impressed with the R2 versions of the 8800NL and AXL because they both use a cheaper chipset than their predecessors (confirmed by Billion's tech support) which seems to cause instability in the SNRM. The link has dslstat plots from the 8800NL R2 and the original which shows what I mean.
Link.

I know the 8800NL R2 does use the inferior BCM chipset (BCM63381 I believe), when compared to the original but my understanding and experience, is that the AXL R2 uses the same BCM 63167/8 chipset as the original AXL. As stated above, I've seen an increase upstream sync with the AXL R2 over the AXL, with stability (hampered by the current issue) appearing the same, which would support this.
I'm also comparing both Billions with the ZyXel VMG8924-B10A another device renowned for achieving the best sync and reliability (which also uses the BCM63168 chipset). The AXL R2 is better than this in the former respect but I can't compare the latter currently.

Do you have a similar graph with the 8800AXL R2 in situ, on your line? It would be good to see the comparison.

Paul

I don't have an AXL R2 anymore. I'm trying to remember when I was using it because I have about three years of archived dslstats output on my fileserver.