Neighbours have FTTP, we have super slow ADSL

Hi! First time posting here, so apologies if I get terminology confused or just misunderstand something.

I've just moved into a property in Cambourne, Cambridgeshire and was amazed that there is only slow ADSL available to my flat despite Cambourne being a winning community in the 'Race to Infinity'. (I appreciate that there were build date criteria for this)

I could live with that, except surrounding properties on the same postcode, all built around the same time, already have FTTP and can get 300mbps from BT, compared to the roughly 2mbps I can get!

Here is a map that might help you to visualise the layout: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1hlUD_gjl3fvzyhAWFF...

Essentially, the red area is 3 blocks of flats and a single property over a couple of garages, which are all managed by one Property Management Company. I've spoken to the company and they are happy to consent to BT installing hardware to get people fibre connected. The green area can all get FTTP right now.

I've been trying to chase down a few bits of information regarding how we can get FTTP, but one thing that no-one has been able to answer from Openreach is why we weren't connected at the same time.

The Community Fibre Initiative has quoted around £10.5k to connect 24 properties. There were several red flags for me in the quotes which suggest some database errors (computer says no): Their first quote (which is computer generated) included a property that is already FTTP eligible - I'd only requested coverage for 23 properties, not 24.

Their second quote covered 39 properties, for only £9.5k (as the cost per head becomes better on Openreach's side) but the additional 15 properties already have FTTP too. I was told on the phone that the extra 24th property is because it's on the same distribution point as some of my requested properties. I assume that this is a copper DP that they're referring too.

Is £10k to run what I believe to be one fibre cable (as it could split to cover all the flats?) through existing ducting from the exchange (i.e. following the route of other FTTP cabling) before splitting it out to 3 buildings actually reasonable? I was told that it's the right ballpark for an initial estimate for 24 properties, but it's only 4 physical buildings all on a private courtyard facing each other, right behind FTTP connected properties.

I've started rambling and venting a bit, but essentially I'm trying to see if there's anyway of getting decent broadband without expecting £500 a head from rental tenants, or their landlords who most likely couldn't care less.

Thanks in advance!

This thread is potentially quite similar as this is also a lack of FTTP in Cambourne story: http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/fibre/4538198-cabin...

Without a time machine and lots of fly on the wall tech impossible to know for sure why not in the original roll-out, maybe landlord was approached and said no at the time.

The pricing is in the right ball park

Property management company who act on behalf of the freeholders and leaseholders don't have any record of being asked, but you could well be right.

That's disappointing re: the estimate. I was hoping that the fact it's only 4 buildings (one single dwelling, 3 multiple dwelling) and there's presumably ducting nearby for the rest of the connected properties would cause it to be considerably cheaper.

Why not do a deal with a neighbour to share their FTTP connection instead of getting your own? I'd expect that offering to pay half the monthly fee might be tempting for them.

Drop me a message here. We can take a look if need be. We have a fair bit of history with property in Cambourne (one of the first ISPs that got adsl there after the area was first moved to the Caxton exchange)

No promises but happy to look into it

Have you tried contacting Connecting Cambridgeshire.... what do they say (their website shows the two postcodes in your map as getting commercial coverage... somewhat useless or inaccurate as that appears to only be true for part of it).

That said I had a similar issue at my last address, where the local BDUK team said Openreach had told them they would deliver fibre commercially, and so it was off their radar. The fact Openreach hadn't delivered didn't seem to matter to them!

I guess Street View tells a 1000 words... as the area without FTTP is what looks to be a private road, accessed under the first floor of other properties. Therefore providing FTTP to these MDUs (which themselves have a different FTTP solution to the regular single dwelling units at the front) is no doubt a much more complicated affair and why it wasn't done initially.

Looking at the Copper DP information (extracted from the BT Home & Business site results) as well as the strreetview, there are 6x DPs serving the buildings lacking FTTP, as there's one for the FoG, and the left and righthand buildings have two entrances and two DPs each. Assuming that's replicated with fibre, it's therefore at least 6x DPs to be run in, and maybe an additional splitter. And I don't know how easy the in-building delivery would be.

PS. The cabinet is interesting.... slightly unusual location for a PCP (assuming it is PCP107, and not an SCP just for that private area?). But I can't see anything else around, apart from what is presumably P7 and its FTTC twin(see StreetView here) just across the other side of Broad Street, in De La Warr Way. And it looks like the MDUs on that side of Broad Street are served by this FTTC from PCP7, so no in-building works needed for them. To give you immediate relief, it's a shame Connecting Cambridgeshire didn't pick up on your area and may then have re-routed you from PCP (unlikely Openreach would ever do that otherwise), though FTTP would be best in the long run.

Thank you, will do

As in share Wi-Fi? Could work as a temporary fix. I'm in the rearmost building so might have to see which connections stretch that far.

Ideally I'd like a decent wired connection but I'll take what I can get

Whilst accessing someones existing wifi (with permission) is one way, there are many specialist point to point devices available that will allow you to send a "wifi" signal miles. As a starting point have a look here: https://www.broadbandbuyer.com/store/wifi-links/

If using equipment such as those suggested by olicuk you need to make sure that you have a clear line of sight between the AP radio (transmitter) and the Station radio (receiver) which means no other buildings, trees or bushes in the way and to clear the Fresnel zone.
I have fitted Ubiquity NBE-5AC-16 PtP products between two buildings and achieved the maximum throughput that the modem/router was able to transmit.

Ah ok, that's an interesting idea! I do like Ubiquity hardware, never used it for a point-to-point system before though.

re: scopio, good point on the clear line of sight. I'll have a look and see what could be done. Can the receiver be pointed through a window? I'm in a rental property, so no fixing any dishes to the outer walls!

Good point on Connecting Cambridgeshire, I'll reach out to them. Maybe there's some extra funding floating around!

BDUK just says to contact Connecting Cambridgeshire.

Correct, the little road/courtyard is private (although there are other utility providers that use it freely). The property management company has no problem with Openreach coming to install fibre: whether this has always been the case or not is unclear.

The road is accessible at each end through archways that run underneath the 1st floor properties. Each archway is oneway. The management company can make one of the archways two way temporarily if work needs to be done that obstructs the other arch.

I found this Step by Step guide for apartment installations that I thought might cover the MDU use case. Not sure if these MDUs are too small to justify a system like this, however.

Yes, I found the same DP information. 49 Broad Street (which has FTTP) actually shares a DP with a couple of the slow ADSL properties, so the fibre distribution does not strictly match the DP distribution. Each of the blocks of flats (and presumably each entrance of the left and rightmost blocks) has a locked utilities/maintenance cupboard with central gas/water shutoffs etc. Not sure if that would be a suitable space for the splitter or not, but there are existing runs of cables from that to each of the flats being served - I'm not a telecoms engineer or electrician though!

I've been unable to find any other cabinet on street view or from actually walking around, so I can only assume that it's 107. There's no number painted on it. I agree that the cabinets you linked are most likely P7 + FTTC.

I'll chase Connecting Cambridgeshire, they may be able to provide some historic context.

Please be aware that clear line of sight is not enough for radio wireless networks, the wave needs certain amount of space around the line of sight to travel. If there are obstacles within this space, there will be a signal loss to the link. So consideration must be given to the Fresnel Zone!
Fresnel zone can be disrupted by various stationary objects - ground, terrain features, houses and trees. Such disruption manifests as permanently weak or even absent reception. Moving objects can disrupt Fresnel zone as well - buses, trams, trains, lorries, cars or even pedestrians. These cause temporary losses of function. So the distance between the radios and the height at which they would be installed is crucial to get the best reception.

Picture illustrates obstacle by ground https://s19.postimg.cc/lwyantd8z/2018-08-13_14-30-21...

Picture illustrates obstacle by traffic https://s19.postimg.cc/3u57wketf/2018-08-13_14-29-15...


Useful website to calculate the Radius of the Fresnel Zone https://www.everythingrf.com/rf-calculators/fresnel-...

The Ubiquity LOCO M5 and the NanoBeam NBE-5AC which would be the products of choice for a short distance can be mounted on the inside of a window via their respective suction mount accessories.

Edited by deleted (Mon 13-Aug-18 15:00:42)

While all true, everyone advised me against trying my PtP link because of obstructions however I have a Ubiquiti AC24 PtP link that goes through a tree and a thick wall, but still get 100MBit at the other end with the client side sat indoors on a cupboard.

If I had mounted them on the wall outside the link would have been much better still, but it didn't seem worth the effort after seeing how well it performed like this.

So it can work with "some" obstructions, there are just no guarantees. If you are stuck on ADSL I'd say its worth the risk, especially if you are able to mount both sides of the link outdoors with only minor obstructions.

Edited by alexatkin (Mon 13-Aug-18 16:11:40)

alexatkin it is always a risk but as you say it is a well worth risk to try and get a better reception than a low ADSL reception!

People forget that WiFi does reflect off things to some extent, so this can actually either work against you or in your favour.

The link in question passes right next to metal railings in a balcony which seem to be the biggest factor in how strange an angle I have to put the client side.

I actually have a second link to the same building but a different property that gets an even more stable link due passing between the trees (rather than the trunk blocking the fresnel zone) and not as close to the balcony. It allowed me to halve the channel width to get the same performance with a more consistent link speed.

I suspect that second link could get three or four times the speed if I put the client outdoors but the person using it doesn't want the hassle or mess.

As a matter of curiosity what is the distance between the two buildings?

Distance is approx 32m: https://link.ubnt.com/#l=75b4b6519db54e2ca2aba7d4f5b...

The distance question above was directed at alexatkin and not at yourself but nevertheless I�m glad you have stated the distance at which your property and the property of your neighbour from which you intend to install the radios is.
I notice that your link to ubnt.com is for installing the Ubiquiti RP-5AC-Gen2 Rocket Prism AC500 Outdoor 5GHz Wi-Fi which also needs to be attached to a airMAX Dish antenna or a Sector antenna and are used to be fitted to a masts for long distance and wide angle reception, kilometres apart, and for providing PTMP configurations.
The Ubiquiti RP-5AC-Gen2 Rocket Prism AC500 Outdoor 5GHz Wi-Fi would be a massive and unnecessary overkill for you requirement.
From your ubnt.com link I also notice that you intend to fit the radios 32m apart and the AP radio fitted at a height of 5m and the Station radio at a height of two meters, which is OK as long as the Fresnel zone is not obstructed. Perhaps you could re-calculate trying to use the Nanobeam NBE‑5AC‑Gen2 https://www.ubnt.com/airmax/nanobeam-ac-gen2/which is the radios I would recommend which would suit your requirements.
I shall PM you with more details in due course.

Yes, the site I generated that simulation on does not have the NanoStation AC Loco available to select, so the Rocket is the default option. I don't plan to actually use a Rocket! It doesn't let you pick the radio in question at the moment (it picks the most suitable for you, which is clearly wrong) but I will validate the fresnel calculations IRL.

Both radios will be on the inside of a window, as I'm in a rental and can't affix anything to the outside and I don't want to inconvenience a neighbour by asking them to drill a hole in their wall! Especially as they might be in a rental too. Ubiquiti has a window mount available for the NanoStations, I just need to confirm that the Loco variant fits.

The WiFi AP at my end (connected to the RX radio) might be a Ubiquiti Aircube, as it can deliver PoE to the NanoStation which keeps things neat and it keeps it all as Ubiquiti hardware.

I realised after I tried that the UBNT AirLink does not allow you to choose any particular radio which I think is the downside of the application.

The NanoStations mounted on a window mount should be fine.

You seem to be at the stage to confirm what you need to purchase and set it all up.

Good luck and pm me if I can be of any help with your project.

Apparently the application will be updated to allow you to select the product, as the older AirLink version allowed this.

Great, I was hoping that two panes of glass shouldn't be a problem considering there's only a 32m distance to cover anyway!

I'm going on holiday soon for a bit, but will try and sweet talk my neighbours once I'm back. I'll PM you if I need any more advice further down the road! Thanks for your help

Post deleted by scopio

broadstfibre I have sent you a PM for when you get back from your holidays.

broadstfibre I have sent you a PM

Having read all the posts again on this subject I am concerned about a post suggesting sharing someone else�s ISP FTTP connection and how that could land both sharing parties in hot water with the ISP which could lead to the suspension of service and possibly legal action by the ISP.
A possible solution to get over the legalities of sharing internet access could be to explore the option to see if the ISP would allow a second account at the neighbour�s location. You could then do whatever you wanted with it. Perhaps if there is power available outside install the ISP modem in a weatherproof box and feed the nanobeam out from there.
That would eliminate the possible illegalities and having to use extra equipment such as the Ubiquity EdgeRouter X to create separate networks for each neighbour for security reasons.

Edited by deleted (Tue 28-Aug-18 14:35:33)