BT FTTP a word of warning.

Thought I might post this here lest anyone else end up in my situation.

Had FTTC 80/20 at this time already, but saw the openreach van at the cabinet near my house, with what was quite clearly fibre runs being "shoved" down into the street opening.

Glory be, about a month later I saw FTTP 1000/220 available to my premises, and ordered 330/50 FTTP.

OpenR guy came out to survey, which was a two min conversation, no prob.

Day of install, they automatically cancelled the FTTC, but had moved somehow the FTTP date, without moving the date for the original FTTC cut off, leaving me without internet access at all.

No email notification about moving the install of FTTP, or that the FTTC was going to be ceased, so I had no way of alerting BT.

4G sucks btw

Regards
D

Well I would be on the phone to BT's Complaints team and demand (but at the same time being polite) for the FTTC to be re-enabled until the FTTP was live.

There is no reason why they couldn't keep the FTTC until the FTTP was live, they are both over different mediums.

Like when we moved from ADSL2+ to FTTP, our FTTP install had issues and was cancelled twice I think, but our ADSL2+ connection was still live.

It was only a few days after our FTTP connection went live and the executive complaints / chairman's office phoned up to ask if everything was ok and that we was happy with how it was all dealt with and then the compo team phone call 30 mins after and was agreed with, was when the ADSL 2+ line was deactivated.

So both of our connections overlapped by 3 to 5 days, so they can overlap.

TBH I think this was done by mistake, these things do happen.

But I would phone BT and explain and make a complaint, this might allow for the FTTC to be temporary activated assuming there is a free port at the cabinet.

Also it was their mistake not yours, so it "should" be at their cost to resolve.

BTW, how long is it till the FTTP is now to be installed?

Paul

In reply to a post by PaulKirby:

There is no reason why they couldn't keep the FTTC until the FTTP was live, they are both over different mediums.

Unless they were porting the voice number over to FVA and allowed that to complete in the background. It would have ceased the line and any associated services with it.

Matt

In reply to a post by uno:

In reply to a post by PaulKirby:

There is no reason why they couldn't keep the FTTC until the FTTP was live, they are both over different mediums.

Unless they were porting the voice number over to FVA and allowed that to complete in the background. It would have ceased the line and any associated services with it.

While this might be true, but the OP never said the line was ceased, so I was going by that information.

But yeah, FVA does make this more complicated, our FVA was done once the ADSL2+ was stopped.

Paul

Update..

I called BT the morning it went offline, and they explained that the FTTC cancellation was automatic.
I like you assumed that as FTTP uses glass, FTTC uses copper, there would be no requirement for a service outage.

Problem was they had to essentially re-order FTTC to re-instate that product, and that was going to come with the regular installation delay i.e 2 weeks.

I grumbled, and asked for the BT mini hub, they ignored this request.

They managed to get onto the faults team, even thought this was not actually a fault in their eyes, and move the "installation" date to Monday.

Later, still unhappy, I rang again as my new product is the "Plus" version.
I'm informed that when a qualifying fault is logged on the service, the BT mini Hub is shipped automatically.
Eventually they managed to sort it, along with unlimited data on the kids phones until the "fault" is resolved.

I hadn't considered the actual migration of the telephone number, but would guess I wouldn't be alone there, like many I'm sure, don't have a handset attached to the line.

D

Well if its all automatic you would of thought their system would of checked that the new service was in place and live before cancelling the old service.

But like I said these things can happen.

I think we were lucky and BT was treading carefully due to our local MP and myself sending several emails and phone calls to the CEO and chairman's office about our issues.

But yeah once our FTTP was all live and our ADSL2+ was deactivated I then had our phone moved over to FVA (keeping our current / existing phone number), I just wanted to get off our very bad copper line that use to die when it become windy and rainy etc.

Word of waring if you move your phone over to FVA you will be charged I think £35 for the cease of the old copper line, BT didn't tell us about that, but I brought that up in the compo phone call and it was refunded.

Paul

Edited by PaulKirby (Sat 15-Dec-18 10:08:06)

Whats the situation with FVA? I had a FTTP connection installed in November, but my voice service is still on the old copper line, I thought this was the 'default' for brown field installations. I was chatting with neighbour the other evening, he has also placed an FTTP order, but he's been told he needs a new phone number (I'm sure this is wrong, but assume it's because the random order processing system has allocated him FVA)

BTs systems offered me FVA when I upgraded my FTTP from 80/20 to 150/30. The order then got stuck for a few weeks before being reissued without FVA. We're still on copper for voice....

I presume the exchange needs to be suitably equipped to support (to route local number calls appropriately) so perhaps my issue was that the exchange isn't setup for it - there are only <32 FTTP houses here out of >1500 after all...

Its frustrating as our copper line has failed twice since we've had full fibre and they keep having to come fix it - investing money in what should be a now obsolete copper network.

Simon

In reply to a post by SJHambly:

I presume the exchange needs to be suitably equipped to support (to route local number calls appropriately) so perhaps my issue was that the exchange isn't setup for it - there are only <32 FTTP houses here out of >1500 after all...

Nothing to do with the exchange. I don't get the option of FVA when ordering through BT Retail yet fibre only properties not far from me (new builds) do - both FTTP live & connected to the same exchange. It seems BT Retail's systems usually prefer copper rather than FVA for voice where there is both a copper and a fibre feed into a property. Obviously FVA is the only option for voice (from BT) for fibre only premises, typically new builds.

Edited by deleted (Sat 15-Dec-18 22:19:52)

In reply to a post by bedrock:

Whats the situation with FVA? I had a FTTP connection installed in November, but my voice service is still on the old copper line, I thought this was the 'default' for brown field installations. I was chatting with neighbour the other evening, he has also placed an FTTP order, but he's been told he needs a new phone number (I'm sure this is wrong, but assume it's because the random order processing system has allocated him FVA)

Well our copper line was sooooo bad and has been for years, it's possibly just an old line (not sure), but there is no good / working pairs left.

When it become windy and rainy our copper line speed would drop down to nothing and then the phone would go dead.
The engineers would come out but wouldn't be able to resolve the issue apart from re-do the joints and that it.
I was also told by the engineers when they were here at the time and also BT over the phone that a new additional set of copper cables pairs would not be installed just for the one line, which is fine and I agree with.

This was why as soon as we were able to order FTTP we decided on getting everything off the copper line, so when I placed the order over the phone I also asked for the phone service to also be moved over to FVA too, and that we need to keep the same current phone number which they said ok.

Where our FVA Service started 3 to 5 days after our FTTP went live which was also when our ADSL2+ service stopped, the engineer that installed the FTTP left the phone cable from the ONT tacked along the skirting and by the NTE5A Master Socket and said once the TEL1 light on the ONT was lit to swap the two wires over in the master socket and phone the 6 digit phone number and follow the instructions and if I wanted to terminate the cables back to the BT80 box, and then job done.

So now our copper line is terminated at the BT80 Box.

TBH, I think you need to actually ask for the phone service to be moved over to FVA and that you want that FVA service to use your current phone number.

Now if you are in an area that only has FTTP and has no copper then the phone service might be over FVA assuming a phone service is being provided that is.

The way I see it, if you have no issues on your copper line and that you have FTTP, then there is no need to move it over, you gain nothing doing so apart from a one of cease fee of about £35, you still have line rental over FVA.

Paul

In reply to a post by SJHambly:

BTs systems offered me FVA when I upgraded my FTTP from 80/20 to 150/30. The order then got stuck for a few weeks before being reissued without FVA. We're still on copper for voice....Its frustrating as our copper line has failed twice since we've had full fibre and they keep having to come fix it - investing money in what should be a now obsolete copper network

The whole thing doesn't seem rational at times. When they put in my fttp they installed new posts and came from a diff direction. Then stripped my old copper and put it all on the new posts. Simply rerouting the old copper must have cost them a fortune. In any sane world they' have offered me FVA for free for a yr as an incentive to swap and saved the cash.

They can't just start ripping out copper willy nilly.
Though why they rerouted the copper I've no idea.

I know a numbed of properties that have had FTTP installed from the opposite direction as the existing copper and never known the copper to be rerouted.

There's only 1 or 2 ISP's who even have FVA set up.
There's also a considerable amount of exchange equipment that isn't compatible with FVA (no surprise it's ECI kit).

I understand the logic of FTTP only on new sites.
Until FVA gets wider availability and full compatibility they can't go ripping existing copper up.

baby_frogmella

On FTTP only sites BT has an agreement with OFCOM that is does not have to offer copper USO services. Thus BTRetail can default to FVA as no other fixed voice service is available ( and SOGEA has not yet gone live) so BT have to provide voice even if you don't need it).

On FTTP overlay sites it is considered non-competitive to provide FVA as a default as the voice service may be supplied via other copper resellers so BT MUST not assume that BT's FVA product is wanted. So cannot be the default.

You can however cease the Copper line (later on) and then port the number to FVA, this is then your choice and not something BT would be considered to have done as a default.

The joys of being considered to have significant Market power by OFCOM basically means you should not be the prime(first) mover in your significant market even when that makes sense to most people.



.

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

They can't just start ripping out copper willy nilly.
Though why they rerouted the copper I've no idea.

I know a numbed of properties that have had FTTP installed from the opposite direction as the existing copper and never known the copper to be rerouted.

There's only 1 or 2 ISP's who even have FVA set up.
There's also a considerable amount of exchange equipment that isn't compatible with FVA (no surprise it's ECI kit).

I understand the logic of FTTP only on new sites.
Until FVA gets wider availability and full compatibility they can't go ripping existing copper up.

I wasn't suggesting they did it willy nilly. But that someone overseeing the fttp builds in my area (of which there were many) could - as I understand the rules - have offered fva/copper stop to us. [Yes there are Chinese Walls issues here but you'd think given the dedicated fttp teams are quite specialised there could have been some mechanism for OR and my ISP to work a way to ask me!] If we accepted then no copper needed. Given they ran new posts and new copper and fibre I/we was/were as close to 'fttp on on new sites' as I could without actually being new! [I can't comment on the exchange equipment eci etc as I don't know]

Edited by deleted (Mon 17-Dec-18 12:29:13)

They can't have it where property owners or tenants get to choose wether their copper can be ripped out.
People move house.

You may own your home but you don't get to decide what utilities future occupants have access to.

They will continue to install the combined copper/fibre drop cables for areas with both. Quite right too.

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

They can't have it where property owners or tenants get to choose wether their copper can be ripped out.
People move house.

You may own your home but you don't get to decide what utilities future occupants have access to.

They will continue to install the combined copper/fibre drop cables for areas with both. Quite right too.

I could buy a house without copper so there is little difference. All owners make decisions that impact later owners. And I have separate copper & fibre cables.

That's ridiculous. All owners modify properties.
They don't go ripping up access to utilities though.

It isn't your network to decide your property shouldn't have a copper line, and quite right.

I'm sure ISP's who don't sell FTTP would have something to say if residents could randomly remove the part of the circuit that allows them to sell services to that property.

You may think it's a good idea, but there are many reasons why it isn't.
Probably regulations from Ofcom preventing it also.

Given that the ultimate goal is for all the copper to be gone, I think it is perfectly reasonable in 2018 for the current occupier of a property to make that decision. Maybe not a tenant but certainly a owner. Anyone moving into a property with no copper and complaining needs their head examining, and perhaps that was not the right property for them.

Edited by jabuzzard (Mon 17-Dec-18 17:20:47)

In reply to a post by jabuzzard:

Given that the ultimate goal is for all the copper to be gone, I think it is perfectly reasonable in 2018 for the current occupier of a property make that decision. Maybe not a tenant but certainly a owner. Anyone moving into a property with no copper and complaining needs their head examining, and perhaps that was not the right property for them.

Exactly we're likely to see copper start to go in some exchanges in the 20s its just madness to make any effort to keep it where there is an alternative that works just fine.

As to utilities we're all perfectly free to disconnect from the network, be that water or power. Its not practical in most cases but plenty of rural properties never joined water and use boreholes/springs

Edited by deleted (Mon 17-Dec-18 15:07:11)

In reply to a post by Garlic:

Exactly we're likely to see copper start to go in some exchanges in the 20s its just madness to make any effort to keep it where there is an alternative that works just fine.

Well BT we very willingly to move our phone over to FVA and also allow us to keep our number, basically BT were wasting money keep sending their engineers out to resolve a recurring fault on our copper line several + times a year.

We have had normal phone engineers, boost engineers, all went back stating the line was bad.

I have also re-done the entire internal wiring from the BT80 Junction Box which was also checked later on by one of BT's engineers due to they were aware of me doing so.

But all faults we have ever had over the years were all either located in the junction box on the top of the phone pole, in the enclosure in the chamber, in the cable between the chamber and the cabinet, or in the cable between the cabinet and the exchange, we have also had faults in the exchange and between the exchange and BT's network.

Basically our copper line is in a very bad state and BT are aware of this, and according to BT's technical team that I spoke to, they said:

It wouldn't be financially viable to the installing or replacment of the cable for all the lines on our phone pole due to FTTP was / will be available along with FVA, so at some point most if not all homes on that cable will eventually move over to FTTP even if on the lower tier package and later on the phone over to FVA.

Plus there are future plans to remove all copper lines where viable and to also free up space in their underground network for more fibre cables.

I know you should never believe what you are told over the phone, but I do see their point.
There is no point spending money installing a new copper cable to replace a damaged or very old one which is to last the next 50 or so years if they will be removing copper cables over the next decade in favour of fibre cables.

Paul

Update again.
BT sorted the issue over the weekend, with no requirement for engineer visit etc.
never did see the BT mini hub.
now eagerly awaiting the FTTP install.
D

Nice

Paul

to be frank, the need for there to be retail competition subsidised by BT is holding things back.

I think removing copper and increasing FTTP rollout should take precedence over if some small time isp wants to sell services to a property.

You might say well sky and talktalk are not small time, they not but they have the means to rollout their own fibre to compete if they want to.

I think ofcom's approach to FTTP has been very shameful.

Also isp's do have the option of selling over openreach FTTP, so the copper is not even required for that anyway. In my opinion ofcom should not be holding things back for the sake of isp's who refuse to adopt FTTP in their product line up's.

Sadly its all but certain some ISP would take Ofcom to court if they allow BT to act with what is obvious common sense

probably yeah, the isps will have a sense of entitlement now, and if you take it away they wont lie down and take it.