In reply to a post by SJHambly:

BTs systems offered me FVA when I upgraded my FTTP from 80/20 to 150/30. The order then got stuck for a few weeks before being reissued without FVA. We're still on copper for voice....Its frustrating as our copper line has failed twice since we've had full fibre and they keep having to come fix it - investing money in what should be a now obsolete copper network

The whole thing doesn't seem rational at times. When they put in my fttp they installed new posts and came from a diff direction. Then stripped my old copper and put it all on the new posts. Simply rerouting the old copper must have cost them a fortune. In any sane world they' have offered me FVA for free for a yr as an incentive to swap and saved the cash.

They can't just start ripping out copper willy nilly.
Though why they rerouted the copper I've no idea.

I know a numbed of properties that have had FTTP installed from the opposite direction as the existing copper and never known the copper to be rerouted.

There's only 1 or 2 ISP's who even have FVA set up.
There's also a considerable amount of exchange equipment that isn't compatible with FVA (no surprise it's ECI kit).

I understand the logic of FTTP only on new sites.
Until FVA gets wider availability and full compatibility they can't go ripping existing copper up.

baby_frogmella

On FTTP only sites BT has an agreement with OFCOM that is does not have to offer copper USO services. Thus BTRetail can default to FVA as no other fixed voice service is available ( and SOGEA has not yet gone live) so BT have to provide voice even if you don't need it).

On FTTP overlay sites it is considered non-competitive to provide FVA as a default as the voice service may be supplied via other copper resellers so BT MUST not assume that BT's FVA product is wanted. So cannot be the default.

You can however cease the Copper line (later on) and then port the number to FVA, this is then your choice and not something BT would be considered to have done as a default.

The joys of being considered to have significant Market power by OFCOM basically means you should not be the prime(first) mover in your significant market even when that makes sense to most people.



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In reply to a post by j0hn83:

They can't just start ripping out copper willy nilly.
Though why they rerouted the copper I've no idea.

I know a numbed of properties that have had FTTP installed from the opposite direction as the existing copper and never known the copper to be rerouted.

There's only 1 or 2 ISP's who even have FVA set up.
There's also a considerable amount of exchange equipment that isn't compatible with FVA (no surprise it's ECI kit).

I understand the logic of FTTP only on new sites.
Until FVA gets wider availability and full compatibility they can't go ripping existing copper up.

I wasn't suggesting they did it willy nilly. But that someone overseeing the fttp builds in my area (of which there were many) could - as I understand the rules - have offered fva/copper stop to us. [Yes there are Chinese Walls issues here but you'd think given the dedicated fttp teams are quite specialised there could have been some mechanism for OR and my ISP to work a way to ask me!] If we accepted then no copper needed. Given they ran new posts and new copper and fibre I/we was/were as close to 'fttp on on new sites' as I could without actually being new! [I can't comment on the exchange equipment eci etc as I don't know]

Edited by deleted (Mon 17-Dec-18 12:29:13)

They can't have it where property owners or tenants get to choose wether their copper can be ripped out.
People move house.

You may own your home but you don't get to decide what utilities future occupants have access to.

They will continue to install the combined copper/fibre drop cables for areas with both. Quite right too.

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

They can't have it where property owners or tenants get to choose wether their copper can be ripped out.
People move house.

You may own your home but you don't get to decide what utilities future occupants have access to.

They will continue to install the combined copper/fibre drop cables for areas with both. Quite right too.

I could buy a house without copper so there is little difference. All owners make decisions that impact later owners. And I have separate copper & fibre cables.

That's ridiculous. All owners modify properties.
They don't go ripping up access to utilities though.

It isn't your network to decide your property shouldn't have a copper line, and quite right.

I'm sure ISP's who don't sell FTTP would have something to say if residents could randomly remove the part of the circuit that allows them to sell services to that property.

You may think it's a good idea, but there are many reasons why it isn't.
Probably regulations from Ofcom preventing it also.

Given that the ultimate goal is for all the copper to be gone, I think it is perfectly reasonable in 2018 for the current occupier of a property to make that decision. Maybe not a tenant but certainly a owner. Anyone moving into a property with no copper and complaining needs their head examining, and perhaps that was not the right property for them.

Edited by jabuzzard (Mon 17-Dec-18 17:20:47)

In reply to a post by jabuzzard:

Given that the ultimate goal is for all the copper to be gone, I think it is perfectly reasonable in 2018 for the current occupier of a property make that decision. Maybe not a tenant but certainly a owner. Anyone moving into a property with no copper and complaining needs their head examining, and perhaps that was not the right property for them.

Exactly we're likely to see copper start to go in some exchanges in the 20s its just madness to make any effort to keep it where there is an alternative that works just fine.

As to utilities we're all perfectly free to disconnect from the network, be that water or power. Its not practical in most cases but plenty of rural properties never joined water and use boreholes/springs

Edited by deleted (Mon 17-Dec-18 15:07:11)

In reply to a post by Garlic:

Exactly we're likely to see copper start to go in some exchanges in the 20s its just madness to make any effort to keep it where there is an alternative that works just fine.

Well BT we very willingly to move our phone over to FVA and also allow us to keep our number, basically BT were wasting money keep sending their engineers out to resolve a recurring fault on our copper line several + times a year.

We have had normal phone engineers, boost engineers, all went back stating the line was bad.

I have also re-done the entire internal wiring from the BT80 Junction Box which was also checked later on by one of BT's engineers due to they were aware of me doing so.

But all faults we have ever had over the years were all either located in the junction box on the top of the phone pole, in the enclosure in the chamber, in the cable between the chamber and the cabinet, or in the cable between the cabinet and the exchange, we have also had faults in the exchange and between the exchange and BT's network.

Basically our copper line is in a very bad state and BT are aware of this, and according to BT's technical team that I spoke to, they said:

It wouldn't be financially viable to the installing or replacment of the cable for all the lines on our phone pole due to FTTP was / will be available along with FVA, so at some point most if not all homes on that cable will eventually move over to FTTP even if on the lower tier package and later on the phone over to FVA.

Plus there are future plans to remove all copper lines where viable and to also free up space in their underground network for more fibre cables.

I know you should never believe what you are told over the phone, but I do see their point.
There is no point spending money installing a new copper cable to replace a damaged or very old one which is to last the next 50 or so years if they will be removing copper cables over the next decade in favour of fibre cables.

Paul